Big sheep changes

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bonedogg

IMO, it's just the good ol' boys with a handfull of squeeker rams that want a "big one" before they die want this to push forward... if you ask me the breeding grounds still have Class 4 rams migrating there from their sanctuaries. exshaw has rams coming from the park, wind and pigeon have them come from spray and Peter Lougheed, when the rut happens for sheep, mature rams are there breeding. The sky is not falling. would the below ram be considered a class 4 ram....do they have class 5 lol

That ram is a pig. From the pic it looks like it is no where near full curl either. Than is a prime eg of why I personally am againt it.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

That ram is a pig. From the pic it looks like it is no where near full curl either. Than is a prime eg of why I personally am againt it.

If the data shows that its required then so be it... but there is no supporting data. Changing to full curl is only going to slow down things for the average guy. The hardcore will adapt and figure out how to spank those rams too... it wont hurt the hardcore.

Its the draw thats coming after that. Its the lack of evidence that makes me mad...its the opportunity lost by the average guy that im fighting for...not me.... its the force fed agenda pushing....

By eliminating the trophy hunter, they essentially kill the new hunter.... they talk about sheep recruitment. .. but our hunter recruitment is what pays their bills....those old farts didnt realize what social media can do.... and how much hunters care, and how smart we hunters are.... but the way they are going about it, is more back door and under the table....its the only way they can acheive their agenda, without being put on the stand to provide proof....

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

If the data shows that its required then so be it... but there is no supporting data. Changing to full curl is only going to slow down things for the average guy. The hardcore will adapt and figure out how to spank those rams too... it wont hurt the hardcore.

Its the draw thats coming after that. Its the lack of evidence that makes me mad...its the opportunity lost by the average guy that im fighting for...not me.... its the force fed agenda pushing....

By eliminating the trophy hunter, they essentially kill the new hunter.... they talk about sheep recruitment. .. but our hunter recruitment is what pays their bills....those old farts didnt realize what social media can do.... and how much hunters care, and how smart we hunters are.... but the way they are going about it, is more back door and under the table....its the only way they can acheive their agenda, without being put on the stand to provide proof....

Bingo. You summed it up exactly how it is. SRD works in the dark to much. Soon the light will show all there lies and deceit. There data is as big of a joke as CWD, mule deer info and the latest is suffield.

[pottymouth]

Those tight horn rams, that go from 4/5th to full curl in less than an inch or so in distance, are going to get just as slaughtered as the 4/5th's now (as they claim) and then it will be hunters are to proficient again, and whoop draw it is! Then NO hunting after that!

Funny thing is, 4/5ths are harder to judge, than full curl. Rams that survived on 4/5ths, because the hunter was to scared to make that call usually survived. Full curl rams won't have that luxury....

A ram doesn't have to be profile, at full curl, to judge if he's legal, head on works just as easy....where ram looking at me head on, can still be impossible to judge if he's legal at 4/5th.....

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Those tight horn rams, that go from 4/5th to full curl in less than an inch or so in distance, are going to get just as slaughtered as the 4/5th's now (as they claim) and then it will be hunters are to proficient again, and whoop draw it is! Then NO hunting after that!

Funny thing is, 4/5ths are harder to judge, than full curl. Rams that survived on 4/5ths, because the hunter was to scared to make that call usually survived. Full curl rams won't have that luxury....

A ram doesn't have to be profile, at full curl, to judge if he's legal, head on works just as easy....where ram looking at me head on, can still be impossible to judge if he's legal at 4/5th.....

what I the difference between a 4/5 and full curl? Nothing. They are both dead the day they are legal. The problem is SRD is just trying to protect 80+% that will never be legal to shoot. I honestley believe there are to many non hunters in SRD making decisions that will in end stop hunting as you state.

[Lr1000]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

If the data shows that its required then so be it... but there is no supporting data. Changing to full curl is only going to slow down things for the average guy. The hardcore will adapt and figure out how to spank those rams too... it wont hurt the hardcore.

Its the draw thats coming after that. Its the lack of evidence that makes me mad...its the opportunity lost by the average guy that im fighting for...not me.... its the force fed agenda pushing....

By eliminating the trophy hunter, they essentially kill the new hunter.... they talk about sheep recruitment. .. but our hunter recruitment is what pays their bills....those old farts didnt realize what social media can do.... and how much hunters care, and how smart we hunters are.... but the way they are going about it, is more back door and under the table....its the only way they can acheive their agenda, without being put on the stand to provide proof....

You nailed it potty. I don't think anyone that wants this reg to pass are prolly the ones with the most to gain. However I think about taking my 5, 3 and newborn girls into the mnts with me at some point and the fact is it won't happen if we don't stand up now. I know where I sheep hunt there's full curls around, I'm not worried about tagging up on one some day. It's the principles.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

If the data shows that its required then so be it... but there is no supporting data. Changing to full curl is only going to slow down things for the average guy. The hardcore will adapt and figure out how to spank those rams too... it wont hurt the hardcore.

Its the draw thats coming after that. Its the lack of evidence that makes me mad...its the opportunity lost by the average guy that im fighting for...not me.... its the force fed agenda pushing....

By eliminating the trophy hunter, they essentially kill the new hunter.... they talk about sheep recruitment. .. but our hunter recruitment is what pays their bills....those old farts didnt realize what social media can do.... and how much hunters care, and how smart we hunters are.... but the way they are going about it, is more back door and under the table....its the only way they can acheive their agenda, without being put on the stand to provide proof....

I really doubt any amount of evidence or research will ever change your mind Potty no matter how convincing it may be. I guess we will see soon enough.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by bdub

I really doubt any amount of evidence or research will ever change your mind Potty no matter how convincing it may be. I guess we will see soon enough.

That's where you are wrong my friend....

Full curl doesn't affect me. I will still hunt and I will still come home with sheep!

At the end of the day I want to hunt! and I want what's best for me, you and especially my kids. So when they have provided me with the NUMBERS and FACTS, then I can make an INFORMED decision.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

That's where you are wrong my friend....

Full curl doesn't affect me. I will still hunt and I will still come home with sheep!

At the end of the day I want to hunt! and I want what's best for me, you and especially my kids. So when they have provided me with the NUMBERS and FACTS, then I can make an INFORMED decision.

Well at least we are on the same page there.

[RDW]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

More k country rams will die of old age and lightning , with a full curl restriction. Those genetics of huge loopy curls in k-country, will be the worst place to chase sheep..legal rams will be as plentiful as albino sheep....but im sure the flower sniffers and genetic harm gang are dancing now.

Lets not forget, they are pushing an agenda here, without any proven information. They will not allow any independent studies to be preformed...nor will they release any of their studies and information. They still cant even agree how to properly age a ram... each officer and office does it differently.

This is nothing but a pipe dream from the gentic harm gang, to manage hunters...nothing more.

This is the truth this is to manage hunters they don't care about the sheep heard if they did they would let everyone have a voice at the table and come up with a plan that suited everyone if there really is a problem at all.

Maby I am wrong considering they have done such a great job with the rest of the big game in the province I need not to worry. Lol

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by bdub

Well at least we are on the same page there.

Nope... you believe anything you hear.....and agree

I wait to see the paper work, and make educated decsions...

enjoy the punch....dont drown .

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

I agree with this post other than charging more money. If you want to pay huge money "YOU" go pay it somewhere else. Hunting should not have ever had $$$ atached to it. Comments about $$$ for hunting sickens me.

Think you missed the point of the post, its not about paid hunting, its about opening up more hunting for old rams that will never make even 4/5, but in order to do that you need a deterent from shooting young rams. A gov harvest fee for rams under 8 years old would do that, and make it progressively more expensive the younger the ram.

You cant have a great resource that is managed well for free, unfortunately the gov just throws our licensing $$ into the general coffers

[bdub]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Nope... you believe anything you hear.....and agree

I wait to see the paper work, and make educated decsions...

enjoy the punch....dont drown .

Omg where do you and WB come up with these great sayings lol. In the mean time maybe you can lend me some tinfoil so I can build my own hat haha.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by Roughneck Country

Think you missed the point of the post, its not about paid hunting, its about opening up more hunting for old rams that will never make even 4/5, but in order to do that you need a deterent from shooting young rams. A gov harvest fee for rams under 8 years old would do that, and make it progressively more expensive the younger the ram.

You cant have a great resource that is managed well for free, unfortunately the gov just throws our licensing $$ into the general coffers

First off you give your money away for the sake of just giving it to the general revenue fund. I am not. Do not push your ethics on anybody else. These BS theories and data are a joke. This is all to do with managing hunters and lowering time spent registering rams and enforcing anything. As for age of a ram who cares. What is legal and what is not? If it is 1/2 ,4/5, or full curl who cares. It is dead. If you choose to not shoot because it ain't big enough that Is a personal decision. On that note if I feel like shooting a just legal it is what it is "legal". Do you really think there are not rams that are young that are not full curl? Actually most are younger because they did not broom off.


SRD needs to change everything they do. For charging more because you make more or just have more is wrong. I own that resource to. Actually probably more as I was born here.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

First off you give your money away for the sake of just giving it to the general revenue fund. I am not. Do not push your ethics on anybody else. These BS theories and data are a joke. This is all to do with managing hunters and lowering time spent registering rams and enforcing anything. As for age of a ram who cares. What is legal and what is not? If it is 1/2 ,4/5, or full curl who cares. It is dead. If you choose to not shoot because it ain't big enough that Is a personal decision. On that note if I feel like shooting a just legal it is what it is "legal". Do you really think there are not rams that are young that are not full curl? Actually most are younger because they did not broom off.


SRD needs to change everything they do. For charging more because you make more or just have more is wrong. I own that resource to. Actually probably more as I was born here.

Well thank god we have biologists with an education in such things that make decisions on how to manage our resource rather than hunters who don't care whether a ram is 1/2, 4/5, or full curl or the implications of our actions. Who gives a hoot I guess. I'm sure your vaste knowledge on the subject trumps all their BS theories.

I don't know why I even responded to this post its so rediculous.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

Well thank god we have biologists with an education in such things that make decisions on how to manage our resource rather than hunters who don't care whether a ram is 1/2, 4/5, or full curl or the implications of our actions. Who gives a hoot I guess. I'm sure your vaste knowledge on the subject trumps all their BS theories.

I don't know why I even responded to this post its so rediculous.

Lol. There has been no actual management in Alberta in a very long time. I will slow it down for you. Age means nothing. If it was put on full curl or not. Legal is legal. 90% of the people would shoot it because it is legal. Changing it to full curl rule will only take away 85% of the rams as they will never make full curl. This is to manage hunters not sheep. The other major problem is there is going to be a lot of short rams being shot. The only reason I respond to you is because you are just like speckle55. You can't look past your own nose because if you did you would see there is no actual info to make SRD make changes and do what they do to our herds.

[RZR]

Your not going to change genetics in the herds by changing the regs. If the government wanted to make a difference they would stop giving our sheep away and start introducing them in different parts of this province. Most of your breeding Rams are the 3 and 4 yr. olds.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

Lol. There has been no actual management in Alberta in a very long time. I will slow it down for you. Age means nothing. If it was put on full curl or not. Legal is legal. 90% of the people would shoot it because it is legal. Changing it to full curl rule will only take away 85% of the rams as they will never make full curl. This is to manage hunters not sheep. The other major problem is there is going to be a lot of short rams being shot. The only reason I respond to you is because you are just like speckle55. You can't look past your own nose because if you did you would see there is no actual info to make SRD make changes and do what they do to our herds.

No actual management in Alberta in a very long time, yah ok. Why don't you give us your idea of what sheep management should be in the province. Perhaps we should just have no horn restriction in place at all. I'm sure their was lots of whiners around when they changed the curl restriction from 3/4 curl to 4/5 years ago as well. As for your idea that 85% of rams will never reach full curl I would love to see where you come up with that number. Let me guess, thin air. Short rams being shot, there is already short rams being shot under 4/5 curl. What's going to change that or why would it be any different under a full curl restriction. We need stiffer penalties and better education to change that. The issue is with the post harvest numbers of rams being below the management plans goal, I feel like a broken record here, and the implications of that. They have all kinds of info that points to that. How do you propose we get those numbers up to that level or do you feel it really isn't important? Let's just carry on with the status quo and continue to "not mange our resource like these been doing for years". How does draw sound to you? Perhaps they can manage it that way. It's another option to reach the management goal. Not one I want to see. There are some out there that would like nothing better though and that is the next logical step I see coming if this proposal is a wash and we stick with 4/5 curl. Time will tell I guess.

[58thecat]

Just what I thought a squabble going on again. I will agree that hard-core hunters find a way to adapt. Average Joe will complain and watch his gut grow, complain about having to hump the hills more to find success...which reminds me gotta go get another sausage and egg Mcmuffin!

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

No actual management in Alberta in a very long time, yah ok. Why don't you give us your idea of what sheep management should be in the province. Perhaps we should just have no horn restriction in place at all. I'm sure their was lots of whiners around when they changed the curl restriction from 3/4 curl to 4/5 years ago as well. As for your idea that 85% of rams will never reach full curl I would love to see where you come up with that number. Let me guess, thin air. Short rams being shot, there is already short rams being shot under 4/5 curl. What's going to change that or why would it be any different under a full curl restriction. We need stiffer penalties and better education to change that. The issue is with the post harvest numbers of rams being below the management plans goal, I feel like a broken record here, and the implications of that. They have all kinds of info that points to that. How do you propose we get those numbers up to that level or do you feel it really isn't important? Let's just carry on with the status quo and continue to "not mange our resource like these been doing for years". How does draw sound to you? Perhaps they can manage it that way. It's another option to reach the management goal. Not one I want to see. There are some out there that would like nothing better though and that is the next logical step I see coming if this proposal is a wash and we stick with 4/5 curl. Time will tell I guess.

lol. All numbers are hypothetical. You can't tell me what % will make full curl or not. No different than in there counts. Magically all rams stand on the side of the mountain waving at the dumb biologists. Maybe you should pinch yourself before you slip away. Everything SRD has provided is not science based evidence.

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Just what I thought a squabble going on again. I will agree that hard-core hunters find a way to adapt. Average Joe will complain and watch his gut grow, complain about having to hump the hills more to find success...which reminds me gotta go get another sausage and egg Mcmuffin!

This has nothing to do about who wants an egg mcmuffin or who is hardcore. We all should have opportunity at a speices. The hunt is not for everybody because it is not easy. But making changes to manage hunters because our government can not manage a herd.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

lol. All numbers are hypothetical. You can't tell me what % will make full curl or not. No different than in there counts. Magically all rams stand on the side of the mountain waving at the dumb biologists. Maybe you should pinch yourself before you slip away. Everything SRD has provided is not science based evidence.

I didn't say what number of rams would make full curl or not. You stated that 85 % of rams would never reach full curl.

Dumb biologists are managing our sheep herds hmm. Yeah they probably just read a couple sports afield magazines and watched some wild tv to get their credentials. Hey perhaps we should pay some "dumb hunters" to do the job of managing our wildlife. That would be a great idea. Perhaps you could apply for that job.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

This has nothing to do about who wants an egg mcmuffin or who is hardcore. We all should have opportunity at a speices. The hunt is not for everybody because it is not easy. But making changes to manage hunters because our government can not manage a herd.

We all currently do have an opportunity to sheep hunt and would continue to have the opportunity under full curl, not so much if it goes on draw.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by bdub

No actual management in Alberta in a very long time, yah ok. Why don't you give us your idea of what sheep management should be in the province. Perhaps we should just have no horn restriction in place at all. I'm sure their was lots of whiners around when they changed the curl restriction from 3/4 curl to 4/5 years ago as well. As for your idea that 85% of rams will never reach full curl I would love to see where you come up with that number. Let me guess, thin air. Short rams being shot, there is already short rams being shot under 4/5 curl. What's going to change that or why would it be any different under a full curl restriction. We need stiffer penalties and better education to change that. The issue is with the post harvest numbers of rams being below the management plans goal, I feel like a broken record here, and the implications of that. They have all kinds of info that points to that. How do you propose we get those numbers up to that level or do you feel it really isn't important? Let's just carry on with the status quo and continue to "not mange our resource like these been doing for years". How does draw sound to you? Perhaps they can manage it that way. It's another option to reach the management goal. Not one I want to see. There are some out there that would like nothing better though and that is the next logical step I see coming if this proposal is a wash and we stick with 4/5 curl. Time will tell I guess.

Could you post the stats on those counts, in SMA 3 please? Especially from 2011-2013....

Maybe it's those numbers that will help me understand your point!

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

We all currently do have an opportunity to sheep hunt and would continue to have the opportunity under full curl, not so much if it goes on draw.

Come on stats. With all the scientific data to push for your personal opinions you should lead us all with your stupidity. I am a born an raised in Albertan and I know for a fact I have seen more southern ram then you will ever. Full curl will just take away a huge % that will never make it. These bios that grew up in Ontario or Manitoba that never seen a sheep till they move here. They don't know any more than residents that know all about them. Anybody can go take the course in lethbridge and get the letters behind your name. Does not mean you know anything other than you have letters behind you name. So again smart guy why are you pushing so hard to change my province? Maybe we should change it so people moving here have to wait 10 years before allowing them to hunt our provincial animal. The other thing is stop shipping our sheep anywere and stop putting out all of our forest fires.


I don't want to be a biologist. That is why I went to school to be something else. Please dbud show us these scientific stats to change all our minds.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

Come on stats. With all the scientific data to push for your personal opinions you should lead us all with your stupidity. I am a born an raised in Albertan and I know for a fact I have seen more southern ram then you will ever. Full curl will just take away a huge % that will never make it. These bios that grew up in Ontario or Manitoba that never seen a sheep till they move here. They don't know any more than residents that know all about them. Anybody can go take the course in lethbridge and get the letters behind your name. Does not mean you know anything other than you have letters behind you name. So again smart guy why are you pushing so hard to change my province? Maybe we should change it so people moving here have to wait 10 years before allowing them to hunt our provincial animal. The other thing is stop shipping our sheep anywere and stop putting out all of our forest fires.


I don't want to be a biologist. That is why I went to school to be something else. Please dbud show us these scientific stats to change all our minds.

I'm a born and raised Albertan as well and hunted southern Alberta for quite a few years so yes this is my provice as well as yours. I killed a few rams here and have helped out more than a few others get theirs in this province as well as elsewhere. Anyway that's not the point and I'm not getting into a peeing match over whose seen the most rams in southern Alberta. Good grief. How old are you anyway? I see the writing on the wall with our sheep and I think change is needed. We will find out soon enough what will happen I guess "smart guy".

[Titanium79]

Originally Posted by bdub

I'm a born and raised Albertan as well and hunted southern Alberta for quite a few years so yes this is my provice as well as yours. I killed a few rams here and have helped out more than a few others get theirs in this province as well as elsewhere. Anyway that's not the point and I'm not getting into a peeing match over whose seen the most rams in southern Alberta. Good grief. How old are you anyway? I see the writing on the wall with our sheep and I think change is needed. We will find out soon enough what will happen I guess "smart guy".

Sorry I was not aware you grew up here. I see you posted a pic of wmu 400. Either way I am not saying I better than you. I just know me and everybody else posting in this thread against you know more about there areas than you or a few biologist do. Either way this fight is far from over.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Titanium79

Sorry I was not aware you grew up here. I see you posted a pic of wmu 400. Either way I am not saying I better than you. I just know me and everybody else posting in this thread against you know more about there areas than you or a few biologist do. Either way this fight is far from over.

No problem Titanium.

Just wanted to comment on the facebook page about stopping the sheep hunt and what is posted on it. The first statement I don't believe and the second I do.

"These changes do not make sense and will eliminate significant hunting opportunity for resident hunters as well as cripple the sheep outfitting business in the province."

"In a letter we received back from the government it stated that WMU 400 going to full curl was a big success. "

[Lr1000]

I would really like to see the harvest numbers out of 400 after full curl was implemented. I have a feeling it's not very high. Also full curl might work in some zones but I don't believe such a diverse problem, and "I'm not even saying there is a problem" can be fixed with this reg change.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by bdub

No problem Titanium.

Just wanted to comment on the facebook page about stopping the sheep hunt and what is posted on it. The first statement I don't believe and the second I do.

"These changes do not make sense and will eliminate significant hunting opportunity for resident hunters as well as cripple the sheep outfitting business in the province."

"In a letter we received back from the government it stated that WMU 400 going to full curl was a big success. "

Is that the zone that almost has more car vs sheep collisions and definitely more native harvests, and for sure way more predator kills than it does hunter kills? Success..yes

Ddub..... Have you found those stats I asked for in post #474