All Male combat units safer and more lethal

[rugatika]

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/mark-jud...l-mixed-gender

The study, “The Marine Corps Force Integration Plan,” found that the mixed-gender unit was injured twice as often as an all-male unit, was less accurate with infantry weapons, and was less efficient at removing wounded troops from the battlefield.


What's the scoop with Canada? Fully or partially integrated?

[catnthehat]

It would be interesting to see how the Israelis figure in a survey like that!
Cat

[deerguy]

The woman are shooting men for things that they did years ago and not telling them why they are doing it lol when the squad leader asks what's wrong they respond with "i am fine"

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by rugatika

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/mark-jud...l-mixed-gender

The study, “The Marine Corps Force Integration Plan,” found that the mixed-gender unit was injured twice as often as an all-male unit, was less accurate with infantry weapons, and was less efficient at removing wounded troops from the battlefield.


What's the scoop with Canada? Fully or partially integrated?

Fully, some successes, more failures. Females tend not to gravitate toward the Infantry, a scattering of ladies are found across the Infantry Regular Force. More in the reserves, most want nothing to do with it as a full time occupation. In my experience it has created some issues, none of them good.

That being said, two females just passed the US Ranger course which is one of the toughest courses run in the US Army with a huge attrition rate of candidates.

As well, the Israelis have had wild success with females in their combat units so they're definitely doing something right with how they have done it.

[Ithaca Dog]

Interesting. However, I have a hard time trusting any source that has an obvious agenda. I wonder how true the article is....

[mass]

Some light reading.
The second one is long but answers a lot of questions, in particular about the Israeli Military.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...ne-corps-study

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a262626.pdf

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

Fully, some successes, more failures. Females tend not to gravitate toward the Infantry, a scattering of ladies are found across the Infantry Regular Force. More in the reserves, most want nothing to do with it as a full time occupation. In my experience it has created some issues, none of them good.

That being said, two females just passed the US Ranger course which is one of the toughest courses run in the US Army with a huge attrition rate of candidates.

As well, the Israelis have had wild success with females in their combat units so they're definitely doing something right with how they have done it.

Don't think you can judge the Israeli army by the standards of any other army. They are in a league of their own.

Grizz

[mass]

From the second reference in my previous post;

Although Israeli women are subject to a draft, Israeli women do not presently serve in any assignment that will expose them to combat. Today, when forward IDF units go on alert, women support troops are sent to the rear. Israeli women have not served in direct combat units during a conflict since 1948. The much touted modern image of the Israel; woman soldier, with her Uzi submachine gun, fighting alongside men in battle is a myth.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by rugatika

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/mark-jud...l-mixed-gender

The study, “The Marine Corps Force Integration Plan,” found that the mixed-gender unit was injured twice as often as an all-male unit, was less accurate with infantry weapons, and was less efficient at removing wounded troops from the battlefield.


What's the scoop with Canada? Fully or partially integrated?

Not integrated, support units, reserves integrated.
Some woman are tougher than nails and can hold there own but throw them into the mix of a combat unit and males respond differently to females throwing the balance of the unit out of alignment creating detrimental situations that hinders the overall effectiveness of the unit.

[Grizzly Adams]

From Wikipedia, of course.

The Soviet Union also used women for sniping duties extensively, and to great effect, including Nina Alexeyevna Lobkovskaya and Ukrainian Lyudmila Pavlichenko (who killed over 300 enemy soldiers). The Soviets found that sniper duties fit women well, since good snipers are patient, careful, deliberate, can avoid hand-to-hand combat, and need higher levels of aerobic conditioning than other troops. Women also served as machine gunners, tank drivers, medics, communication personnel and political officers. Manshuk Mametova was a machine gunner from Kazakhstan and was the first Soviet Asian woman to receive the Hero of the Soviet Union for acts of bravery.

Sounds like an intelligent approach to gender differences.

Grizz

[Sundancefisher]

Don't think we can make any assumptions on whether women are effective in all areas of the military because they have been excluded and/or treated differently for so long that you don't get the applicants coming in at the same numbers as men to select out the best fit from the population as a whole.

The fact some persevere and make it suggests many, many more don't try to beat through the male dominated system.

Until that changes and barriers to women are destroyed we can't be certain.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Don't think we can make any assumptions on whether women are effective in all areas of the military because they have been excluded and/or treated differently for so long that you don't get the applicants coming in at the same numbers as men to select out the best fit from the population as a whole.

The fact some persevere and make it suggests many, many more don't try to beat through the male dominated system.

Until that changes and barriers to women are destroyed we can't be certain.

Don't think us men would want to live in a society, where the bulk of women would make excellent combat soldiers.

Grizz

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Don't think us men would want to live in a society, where the bulk of women would make excellent combat soldiers.

Grizz

We would likely jump up fast off the couch to do a chore versus not turning around and grunting we would do it after the hockey game goes on a commercial break.

[mass]

Also from the second reference;

However, other evidence indicates that Russian women did not play a
significant a role in the fighting on the Eastern Front. Noted Soviet historian
Christopher Donnelly states:
despite the publicity given to these few examples [pilots
and snipers], women were not generally seen in combat in
the Red Army except in as much as they got onto the
battlefield as medics (in large numbers), traffic controllers,
drivers, or in HQ Staffs.)

Donnelly's assessment is corroborated by available statistics which show that
women comprised only eight percent of the Soviet Military during the war
(that is three percent less than in the U.S. Army today ) and the majority of
these women were employed as medics or in medical services. There is also
evidence which indicates that the Russian women who served in direct
combat assignments did not perform as well as the men. In her book Women
in War, Shelly Saywell interviewed thirty Russian women that served in
Soviet direct combat units during World War II. Those women interviewed
stated that women often had to throw away equipment, leave equipment
behind, or get some of the men in their units to help carry it.
An analysis of the consequences of this behavior would infer that these
mixed direct combat units were less cohesive. The loss of equipment within a
unit would lead to a loss of system bonding. The inability of women to carry their own equipment would reduce mutual support and degrade the bonds
within the primary group. Although there isn't any empirical evidence to
support it, the Combat Cohesion Model would predict that the reduced
system and primary group bonds of these mixed direct combat units led to
increased rates of destruction. This assessment is supported by the women's
own evaluation. Saywell states that;

Although Russian history is full of martial women, such as those
who fought in the Napoleonic Wars and in the Revolution, each
woman I interviewed said that women do not belong in combat
-that it is physically too difficult and that only in case of national
emergency should women take up arms.

The Red Army's experiences regarding women serving in direct
combat assignments showed women performed well when given specific tasks
that required individual skill but not excessive physical strength or endurance.
Their acceptable performance as snipers and pilots and their admittedly
inadequate physical performance as infantry supports this conclusion. The
analysis of the effects of inadequate physical performance of Soviet women
indicates that mixed direct combat units were probably less cohesive. If
analyzed in relation to the Combat Cohesion Model, the model would predict
higher rates of attrition for the mixed direct combat units. The unwillingness
of the Soviet Army to employ women outside of Russia during World War II
and the present status of women in the Russian -Army (they only serve in
medical or administrative positions) lends further credibility to this
assessment.

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Not integrated, support units, reserves integrated.
Some woman are tougher than nails and can hold there own but throw them into the mix of a combat unit and males respond differently to females throwing the balance of the unit out of alignment creating detrimental situations that hinders the overall effectiveness of the unit.

The CAF is 100% integrated, every trade in our military from cook, to submariner to Infantry is open to females.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

The CAF is 100% integrated, every trade in our military from cook, to submariner to Infantry is open to females.

Absolutely on paper, just something's don't work out is all I am saying.
Some decisions are made by those who ride a desk, say yes to their superiors attempting to insure a probable promotion etc,
We use to call them garrison soldiers, look good on parade, fat,full and happy, decisions made to benefit them and not the troops...the troops who hit the ground, real time who are the ones that adapt and overcome to the situations as things arise...then return to carry a load both mentally and physically many years after the fact.

[deerguy]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Don't think we can make any assumptions on whether women are effective in all areas of the military because they have been excluded and/or treated differently for so long that you don't get the applicants coming in at the same numbers as men to select out the best fit from the population as a whole.

The fact some persevere and make it suggests many, many more don't try to beat through the male dominated system.

Until that changes and barriers to women are destroyed we can't be certain.

Yeah or we can not waste time and resources and just acknowledge the results as being pretty accurate all around.