Spear and Atlatl !!!

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Didnt want to hijack another post so I will address this here...

we were discussing a great association here in Alberta that has extremely helped bowhunting for all of us...

an other member stated their opinion..which is great...

they stated "Any group that throws another hunting group under the bus as with the Spear and Atlatl hunters can pound sand."

Thats the posters opinion...which is fair...my opinion is ...just like rifle hunting, crossbow hunting, Muzzle Loader Hunting....yes we are all hunters, I use/used all the above but ...
sooooo not archery so WHY would they defend them...the Association is bowhunting... Spear and Atlatl are a whole other critter !!!


If a Bowhunting association fought for them....who's next... "the running buffalo off cliffs hunters"...

I agree that the Association should not have anything to do with Spear and Atlatl !!! let them form their own association and fight for their own rights...

JMHO
Neil

[dmcbride]

The full quote from the other thread.
While I would love to join a ABA and the ABA has done a lot of good for bow hunters. The ABA will never get anything from me. Any group that throws another hunting group under the bus as with the Spear and Atlatl hunters can pound sand.

I also agree that the association should not have anything to do with Spear and Atlatl hunting. Unfortunately they raised a stink and caused a bunch of issues. This has nothing to do with them defending anybody, they plain and simple threw Spear and Atlatl hunters under the bus.

I am sorry for somewhat high jacking the other thread, but if the ABA wants to throw other hunters under the bus people should know about it.



Here is a thread for anyone interested.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=204267

[Lefty-Canuck]

I heard a different version of events....and that was the ABA was asked to draft up a motion as F&W was looking to add this to the regs and the ABA was requested to bring it to the AGMAG table.

Before the conspiracy theorists start to spin webs....I heard this before I became a member of the ABA.

LC

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I heard a different version of events....and that was the ABA was asked to draft up a motion as F&W was looking to add this to the regs and the ABA was requested to bring it to the AGMAG table.

Before the conspiracy theorists start to spin webs....I heard this before I became a member of the ABA.

LC

I dunno, From Brent.

Hi dmcbride – tried calling your work today but you had left.

this issue popped up a couple of years ago when I had 2 members contact me about the use of spears/atlatls in Alberta, what they had seen on YouTube and one had a friend who had used a spear on a bear. I chked with the head of enforcement in Alberta Pat Dunford and he said there were no laws on the books not allowing them, etc. They had a few negative comments made to them but nothing really more than that. I brought the issue up at an ABA exec mtg June 18 2012 after I raised the question at the AGAMG (Alberta Game Management Advisory Group) mtg in May 2012. The below is from the minutes of our ABA exec mtg that June.

AGMAG mtg (May)
Hunting with spears
Discussion as to issue brought up at AGMAG. Possible public reaction if it became public. How we as hunting groups can defend the practice - very hard. SRD Enforcement will bring issue back to Dec AGMAG with proposal to prohibit hunting with spears. Was no opposition from groups at AGMAG.

ESRD came back to the May 29 2013 AGMAG meeting and explained how there are no rules concerning using atlatls/spears as well as some other weapons out there (high power air rifles, blow guns, even people wanting to run down and kill game with their bare hands). The stakeholder members and ESRD personel at the meeting discussed the issue, how hard if not impossible it would be to defend the use of these weapons based on all the other criteria we use to defend what we use now as hunters, how negative a public response (from hunters and non-hunters both) would likely be when something hit social media (based on past experiences/responses etc on similar issues – examples are coyote hunting with hounds (now illegal after a houndsman did a taped interview and hunt with CTV on the issue) and the Vancouver Canucks player David Booth who legally killed a black bear with his bow in Alberta over bait two years ago). Many were surprised that they could be used for hunting in Alberta. From that I/we drafted up a change proposal on behalf of the AGMAG stakeholders to have it officially put on the agenda, into the processes for discussion etc.

From May 29 2013 AGMAG Minutes:

• ABA – Make use of spears and atlatls illegal for hunting big game in AB.
o Full support from AGMAG to define legal big game hunting equipment.

The next AGMAG Meeting is January 14 2014 and we will know more then what the stakeholders of AGMAG think on the issue. AGMAG stakeholders:
Environment and Sustainable Resource Development, Alberta Tourism, Parks, and Recreation, Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society
Alberta Fish and Game Association, Wild Sheep Foundation of Alberta, Hunting For Tomorrow, Safari Club International
AB Association of Municipal Districts and Counties, Alberta Bowhunters Association, Wild Elk Federation , Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Alberta Beef Producers, Alberta Professional Outfitters Society.

At the Hunting For Tomorrow stakeholders meeting December 17 2013 the issue was discussed and all members present were in favor of ESRD looking to define what weapons should be legal to hunt big game. I haven’t got copies of those meeting minutes yet. The stakeholders present at this meeting were Alberta Fish & Game Association, Hunting For Tomorrow, Alberta Bowhunters Association, Alberta Professional Outfitters Society, Alberta Hunter Education Instructors Association. Representatives from ESRD were also there to provide information on issues as questions from the stakeholders came up. Several reps were shocked/surprised to find out there were no rules governing this type of stuff.

At the ABA AGM March 29 2014 in Lethbridge we will bring this up for discussion and give everyone the background info etc and see what the members think. There will be a report in the next newsletter (should be out in a month or so) outlining this and a couple of other things we are working on (archery season draw proposal, Cooperative Game Mgt survey, the Mule Deer management Review process and our ABA questionnaire for feedback on the state of our mule deer).

I have personally seen the spear and atlatl videos on YouTube. Pretty distasteful and not what we need to be shown portraying how we are as hunters etc. I know of a fellow who used a spear on a bear – bit of a circus it ended up. My son in law has an atlatl (present from son David from ATBA Jamboree in Hinton) and I have used it. I have been to 2 ATBA Jamborees and seen lots of people using the atlatl – even watched the guy who makes/sells them demonstrating how they work etc. Are a fun thing but in this day and age not something I would promote/endorse as a hunting tool.
In this day and age we are under a microscope in what we do as hunters and things are around the world in a blink of an eye. We can effectively argue effective range, practice makes perfect, quick/humane kills, etc but some things are hard to defend. None of us stakeholders could apply our arguments to the use of these weapons. Every legal weapon out there has wounded something at one time but we can defend their use in that these incidents are few in nature (when using archery equipment the fatalities from a “wound” is very small) and not the norm.

Hope that brings you up to speed on this. Any other questions just let me know.

brent

[Lefty-Canuck]

"Discussion as to issue brought up at AGMAG. Possible public reaction if it became public. How we as hunting groups can defend the practice - very hard. SRD Enforcement will bring issue back to Dec AGMAG with proposal to prohibit hunting with spears. Was no opposition from groups at AGMAG"

SRD initiated the proposed "prohibition". ABA does not run AGMAG, they are a minority partner within the group.

Other stakeholders in AGMAG will have/have had their say...

No need to single out the ABA as they do not make nor do they have final word on this.

If you want to persecute them based on starting a discussion....I guess that's your prerogative.

You could always join the ABA and discuss things with the executive about your thoughts on the issue, you are making assumptions they "they raised a stink"...

LC

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

First didnt mean you were hijackin the thread dmcbride...it was I kinna with ABA...

Maybe one of us is reading this wrong..All Brent said was " not something I would promote/endorse as a hunting tool" "...and In this day and age we are under a microscope in what we do as hunters"


All hunters not just bowhunters!!!

and its under discussion not an ABA or group that throws another hunting group under the bus...

I have to agree...like I said there are those that would like to run Buffalo off cliffs also...jump off skidos on coyotes...kill chit with knifes...

There has to be a line drawn somewhere with a bowhunting group or association...


Neil

[RayM77]

The use of different weapons and methods of hunting should be addressed and discussed by hunters. We should not support everything blindly. As the saying goes police yourself or someone else will. If spear and atl hunting can be shown to be humane, ethical and effective by those that take part in it I would fully support it. But it is up to that user group to defend it. Would you be up in arms if the ABA opposed hunting out of helicopters or using dogs to hunt deer? Groups are in place to promote ethics and conservation and sometimes hunting methods will be challenged.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

I could not get a clear definitive answer from Brent when I emailed him. What I would like to know is if the ABA intentionally went out of their way to get the ball rolling to ban Spears. Which from what I undertsand they did?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

I could not get a clear definitive answer from Brent when I emailed him. What I would like to know is if the ABA intentionally went out of their way to get the ball rolling to ban Spears. Which from what I undertsand they did?

I think they asked the initial question which is where many want to point the finger when in reality it was ALL STAKEHOLDERS of AGMAG that had a discussion on the topic. How many components of AGMAG is there 7-8 different groups? to which the ABA is a single part of.

LC

[wasteland.soldier]

OP, you're mischaracterizing the issue people have. They didn't just decide not to help represent atlatl hunters. They actively tried to make the practice illegal.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I think they asked the initial question which is where many want to point the finger when in reality it was ALL STAKEHOLDERS of AGMAG that had a discussion on the topic. How many components of AGMAG is there 7-8 different groups? to which the ABA is a single part of.

LC

So what if some group (X) asked the initial question about how ethical bow hunting is? Showed a bunch of you tube video's of wounded animals shot with a bow. Come on now, everybody knows Rifles are far more human. Bows are to hard to become proficient. There are far better methods this day and age. Ect. Ect.

Would this group X be responsible for the undoing of archery if it was successful?

IMO, yes.

On a side note I do not wish something like this to happen to any user group.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I think they asked the initial question which is where many want to point the finger when in reality it was ALL STAKEHOLDERS of AGMAG that had a discussion on the topic. How many components of AGMAG is there 7-8 different groups? to which the ABA is a single part of.

LC

To clarify .. AGMAG (Alberta Game Management Advisory Group)

With over a dozen groups....most all of Alberta's wildlife management Governing groups...

Environment and Sustainable Resource Development.
Alberta Tourism, Parks, and Recreation.
Alberta Chapter of the Wildlife Society
Alberta Fish and Game Association.
Wild Sheep Foundation of Alberta
Hunting For Tomorrow
Safari Club International
AB Association of Municipal Districts and Counties.
Alberta Bowhunters Association.
Wild Elk Federation.
Delta Waterfowl Foundation
Alberta Beef Producers.
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society.


Neil

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

So what if some group (X) asked the initial question about how ethical bow hunting is? Showed a bunch of you tube video's of wounded animals shot with a bow. Come on now, everybody knows Rifles are far more human. Bows are to hard to become proficient. There are far better methods this day and age. Ect. Ect.

Would this group X be responsible for the undoing of archery if it was successful?

IMO, yes.

On a side note I do not wish something like this to happen to any user group.

Asking a question should never be considered as "the undoing", I guess we all better be careful what we ask around here....AGMAG is a group/committee, if you have issue with their discussions join a sub-group and get involved.

LC

[wasteland.soldier]

They're backtracking.

[IMG][/IMG]

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

So what if some group (X) asked the initial question about how ethical bow hunting is? Showed a bunch of you tube video's of wounded animals shot with a bow. Come on now, everybody knows Rifles are far more human. Bows are to hard to become proficient. There are far better methods this day and age. Ect. Ect.

Would this group X be responsible for the undoing of archery if it was successful?

IMO, yes.

On a side note I do not wish something like this to happen to any user group.

Statistics dictate there are a much higher pecentage of rifle wounds per...even on par..with much more drastic wounds that dont end up well than with bow...
"Rifles more Humane" I dont think so...not overall by any means...I have hit animals with a bow that take a couple leaps...and continue feeding ..than drop over....same spot with mag rifle ...like getting hit by a truck both same ammount of time...you choice...lol


All not a good point regardless the debate!!

Neil

[wasteland.soldier]

Originally Posted by L.O.S.T.Arrow

Statistics dictate there are a much higher pecentage of rifle wounds per...even on par..with much more drastic wounds that dont end up well than with bow...

You're going to need to cite your source, because I don't believe this.

My bowhunting friends are often telling me about missing deer, much more often than I hear that from rifle hunting friends. If you're missing deer, you're probably also making non-lethal shots and unrecovered kills.

[Luxor]

How about reclassifying Bowhunter to Spearhunter?
Because its actually the spear that makes the point of target. Not how its propelled.
Go tell ancient tribes that throwing a spear is not an effective or ethical tool.
Going from Atlatl to hearding buffalo off a cliff is just plain poor argument.
Making so many classifications on hunting is only going to defete the purpose of hunters as a group.
We are hunters as a whole with many subclasses.
Maybe we need a Slingshot Hunter Association??

Making the Spear/Atlatl illegal is just pure ignorance on part of modern small minded people. Its not an unethical tool.
Its the ethics of the person using it that is the true focus.

Lets ban spearfishing too.

In conclusion......lets make our box bigger not smaller!!!!!

Thank you

[Mistagin]

From my 'talks' with ABA reps when I first came to Alberta in 2008, and looked into joining them, I won't support them either!

My impression is they really want to 'protect' their own turf to the exclusion of all others, thus the atlatl and spear ban motion. I realize they fought for bowhunters back in the day and deserve accolades for that. But they are rather narrow minded in their outlook and come across (to me) as arrogant and exclusionary to anyone that doesn't fit their definition of a bowhunter (or perhaps even a hunter!).

This from a bowhunter who when bowhunting (I use a rifle or shotgun on occasion too ) uses a recurve that pre-dates compounds for still-hunting and stalking and a crossbow (which is archery tackle where I come from) for stand hunting and sometimes for spot-and-stalk.

Note: I was called some pretty nasty stuff by one of their reps at a show one time when he discovered I have and use a crossbow for hunting sometimes I won't forget that, it's left a bad taste in my mouth ever since.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by wasteland.soldier

You're going to need to cite your source, because I don't believe this.

My bowhunting friends are often telling me about missing deer, much more often than I hear that from rifle hunting friends. If you're missing deer, you're probably also making non-lethal shots and unrecovered kills.

Just looked for it....it was a state park or Refuge where both firearm and bow were used...although the wounding was indeed higher with bow...the end results of animals actualy dying from wounded animals was higher with a rifle...

probably nuked the article because its crap that peta and other animal activists feed off of and we dont need to publicise any of it more...

Ya I dont know why bow hunters are so quick to admit missing an animal...
maybe its because bow hunting is harder and rifle hunters are not supposed to miss...so they are not as admitting...is that it I dont know!!

Neil

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I think they asked the initial question which is where many want to point the finger when in reality it was ALL STAKEHOLDERS of AGMAG that had a discussion on the topic. How many components of AGMAG is there 7-8 different groups? to which the ABA is a single part of.

LC

What I wanted to find out was at this meeting who brought it up. 7-8 stakeholders didn't all bring it up at same time. One stakeholder brought it up. Which stakeholder was that is what I am curious about.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Well this is going nowhere...but negitive...

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by L.O.S.T.Arrow

Well this is going nowhere...but negitive...

Trying to form a educated opinion. I think the ABA made a big mistake. Some will say it was the group of stakeholders and I agree with that. But why would the ABA bring it to the table?

[edmhunter]

If I ever hunt black bears again from a tree stand, it will be with a spear.

I will have my life saving girl friend Jennifer with me, to back me up in case things go wrong. I never did appreciate an animal that did not cooperate!

A picture of Jennifer

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by L.O.S.T.Arrow

Well this is going nowhere...but negitive...

If you mean negative for the ABA... then yes. What concerns me is how they turned on the issue. It certainly clarifies their mandate and makes me question what else they may get up to in order to advocate for bowhunters.

I agree with the premise that perhaps Atlats and spears are hard to defend against public scrutiny. Does that mean the ABA should turn around and propose a ban? I don't know.

Was there a concern that some other group was going to intervene on this issue? Say for instance, a PETA-like organisation... if so then perhaps the decision was around optics. If a hunter-led organisation is taking steps to regulate then this looks like self- regulation. The anti hunter lobby will do anything to convince the powers-that-be that we hunters cannot self regulate in any way. This step by the ABA would fly in the face of all that. Perhaps a calculated risk. Was the perceived benefit worth the cost?

The greater concern is likely around fracturing the hunting communities and turning them against one another. The good old divide and conquer. What's next. Trad guys vs compound guys? Mechanical broadheads vs cut-on contact? The ABA's move is a step on the slippery slope and some are not happy about it. It's a polarizing debate that wont end in this forum.

LOST - if you're looking for an upside... At least we have a debate. We could be in places like UK and germany where bowhunting is outlawed.

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

If I ever hunt black bears again from a tree stand, it will be with a spear.

I will have my life saving girl friend Jennifer with me, to back me up in case things go wrong. I never did appreciate an animal that did not cooperate!

A picture of Jennifer

That's the only "girlfriend" my wife might let me have without it resulting in me living in a one bedroom bachelor suite with a 3 legged chair and sad rabbit ears on the tv.

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by Knotter

That's the only "girlfriend" my wife might let me have without it resulting in me living in a one bedroom bachelor suite with a 3 legged chair and sad rabbit ears on the tv.

I feel your pain buddy!

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

The full quote from the other thread.
While I would love to join a ABA and the ABA has done a lot of good for bow hunters. The ABA will never get anything from me. Any group that throws another hunting group under the bus as with the Spear and Atlatl hunters can pound sand.

I also agree that the association should not have anything to do with Spear and Atlatl hunting. Unfortunately they raised a stink and caused a bunch of issues. This has nothing to do with them defending anybody, they plain and simple threw Spear and Atlatl hunters under the bus.

I am sorry for somewhat high jacking the other thread, but if the ABA wants to throw other hunters under the bus people should know about it.



Here is a thread for anyone interested.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=204267

Absolutely we need to stand united as hunters NOT by the legal method we wish to hunt with and than run the others down.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Absolutely we need to stand united as hunters NOT by the legal method we wish to hunt with and than run the others down.

I agree with that statement.... But funny how rifle guys have done just that, and are literally trying, and succeeding in reducing Bow hunting opportunity in this province!

Just like I have said about other groups, if some weapon wants to be heard they need to start their own association, and work their way up the ladder !

[Lefty-Canuck]

^^^^^
Exactly,

People are doing the same thing they are criticizing the ABA for

You can always join...and be active and help make changes you see as being positive. Easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize a situation when no one was there or was involved....the proposal was in 2013, it was an AGMAG decision to whether it sinks or floats.

Like I said I heard that SRD already had this on the radar.

Haters gonna hate, but I wanted to know what goes on in the ABA so I joined to see.

LC

[wasteland.soldier]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I agree with that statement.... But funny how rifle guys have done just that, and are literally trying, and succeeding in reducing Bow hunting opportunity in this province!

Can you expand on this? I'm not aware.