Hybrid???

[bitterrootfly]

Originally Posted by rem338win

Oh Good Lord. All of it. It's all like watching a heart attack.

I’m too young to be watching one of these. Lol.

[Sooner]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Mellennials, gotta love em.

X2,

[Joe Black]

Originally Posted by Mountainaccent

As one my self I take offence to that I’m a millennial and and hope is lost if he can’t grasp that it’s a whitetail not a couse not a Sitka blacktail not a mule deer just an average sized Alberta whitetail with average rack along with the rest running around Alberta

This is impossible. Millennials never get offended about anything.

[Mountainaccent]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

This is impossible. Millennials never get offended about anything.

Lol

[Dick284]

Guys.
Quit feeding the troll!

[remingtonusa]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Or the milk river, which is part of the Mississippi drainage......

The milk river is in southern Alberta by the way and if you guys do your research you will find that Virginia and South Dakota whitetails are native to Alberta also.

[roosterman]

If you want to see what a hybrid looks like, there is a herd of them, including at least one good buck, that hang in the old Dome gas plant/terminal yard in Edmonton; north of 23 Ave. between 99 and Gateway. They were just west of 99 last night, behind Dr. Claffey's vet clinic.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by remingtonusa

The milk river is in southern Alberta by the way and if you guys do your research you will find that Virginia and South Dakota whitetails are native to Alberta also.

Go tie some flies, or set up a jaw jacker!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

So what’s your point?

It’s a whitetail deer, sub species or not, who gives two craps!

You start this thread going on about how it must be a hybrid, when you get shot down in flames on that, you go off on how it’s a, this sub species or a that sub species......

In the words of Foghorn Leghorn:
“move along boy, you’re beginning to wear on my last nerve.”


Go tie some flies, or set up a jaw jacker!

Stop feeding the troll.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Stop feeding the troll.

You’re right.

It appears I need to take my own advice.

[walking buffalo]

Trolls need food too.
Their games can be good for you, might even teach ya something.

Originally Posted by remingtonusa

The milk river is in southern Alberta by the way and if you guys do your research you will find that Virginia and South Dakota whitetails are native to Alberta also.

To keep playing your game, as it is the only one in town...


The Milk River flows into the Mississippi River.


No, neither "Virginia" nor "South Dakota" whitetails are native to Alberta.

Neither of these subspecies even exist.


Alberta has two subspecies of whitetailed deer,
Odocoileus virginianus borealis and Odocoileus virginianus dakotensis.

[remingtonusa]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Trolls need food too.
Their games can be good for you, might even teach ya something.




To keep playing your game, as it is the only one in town...


The Milk River flows into the Mississippi River.


No, neither "Virginia" nor "South Dakota" whitetails are native to Alberta.

Neither of these subspecies even exist.


Alberta has two subspecies of whitetailed deer,
Odocoileus virginianus borealis and Odocoileus virginianus dakotensis.

Google it and you will see then you can tell me who’s right instead of just trying to shoot other people down. Let me know what you find out by googling it

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by remingtonusa

Google it and you will see then you can tell me who’s right instead of just trying to shoot other people down. Let me know what you find out by googling it

Call your local bio and see if he confirms your google search

[Lefty-Canuck]

Google knows best....

Heck google probably got us here in the first place, nope...just another “hybrid” believer.

LC

[remingtonusa]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Call your local bio and see if he confirms your google search

Ask a veteran hunter if they exist

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by remingtonusa

Ask a veteran hunter if they exist

Clearly they don’t exist lol

There was a correct answer given on what sub species of whitetail are found in Alberta that was given by a hunter but I don’t know if he is a “veteran”. I do know for a fact if you contact a bio he will give you the same answer

I don’t know if I am qualified to give you the info so I will point you to a professional instead

[sk270]

Originally Posted by remingtonusa

Google it and you will see then you can tell me who’s right instead of just trying to shoot other people down. Let me know what you find out by googling it

I may regret feeding the troll but I can no longer resist. I did a Google search as suggested.

Remington, you should try one. You will find, as I did, that walking buffalo is correct. The two species in Alberta are O. v. borealis and O. v. dacotensis, with some sources giving O. v. ochrourus in southwestern Alberta.

Sorry. Couldn't resist the feeding. Google is your friend when you search and read carefully. I am not trying to shoot you down, Remington, just hoping you'll take care when reading the results of your search.

[sns2]

RemingtonUSA, just so you are aware, trolling can get you a timeout, and it is not in the slightest bit funny.

Also, you are not likely to ever meet a person who knows more about this subject than Walking Buffalo.

Carry on if you must, not that this topic has anything else to be added to it.

[sk270]

Originally Posted by sk270

I may regret feeding the troll but I can no longer resist. I did a Google search as suggested.

Remington, you should try one. You will find, as I did, that walking buffalo is correct. The two species in Alberta are O. v. borealis and O. v. dacotensis, with some sources giving O. v. ochrourus in southwestern Alberta.

Sorry. Couldn't resist the feeding. Google is your friend when you search and read carefully. I am not trying to shoot you down, Remington, just hoping you'll take care when reading the results of your search.

I kept looking and I found sources that indicate that O. v. borealis may not come as far west as Alberta. Sorry, walking buffalo.

In any case, the majority of whitetails in Alberta are O. v. dacotensis according to all the sources I could find, except some spell it dakotensis.

[Bushrat]

Alberta deer are O.v borealdakotensis hybrids.....

[RZR]

Originally Posted by sns2

RemingtonUSA, just so you are aware, trolling can get you a timeout, and it is not in the slightest bit funny.

Also, you are not likely to ever meet a person who knows more about this subject than Walking Buffalo.

Carry on if you must, not that this topic has anything else to be added to it.

So having an opinion is trolling. You are the judge and jury on trolling. Oh and RemingtonUSA Dale knows everything.

[sns2]

Uh yep. Kinda what moderating is... making judgements. Feel free to shoot me a pm anytime. Usually works the best.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by RZR

So having an opinion is trolling. You are the judge and jury on trolling. Oh and RemingtonUSA Dale knows everything.

So who exactly is Dale? Or, just throwing **** out there to see if it sticks?

[RZR]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

So who exactly is Dale?

Walking Buffalo. So easily confused!

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by RZR

Walking Buffalo. So easily confused!

And how is RemingtonUSA supposed to know who Dale is?

[BloodHound70]

So, as much fun as it is watching you guys eat up Remington, many years ago I think I did in fact take a hybrid.

Now before you all jump at me, the only photos I have of it are from the front when we got back to the farm and I did not take any of the butt end, and have no idea where that pic is anymore. Was before digital pics. The reason I think it was:
-had all the normal color characteristics of a mule (especially the face) other than it had a longer tail (longer than a mule, but shorter than a WT), white only on the bottom side with the entire tip being black. The rump had more white surface area than a WT.
-The ears were smaller more characteristic of a WT and as well as the horns were also more like a WT. I still have the horns.
-It was with 4 WT does when I shot it and it ran like a Mule.

I'm not saying that it was 100% a hybrid, but I should have documented it better as I strongly believe that it may have been. I will never know for sure as in those days we didn't take 1000 pics of everything. At the time I didn't realize how rare it may have been.......Oh well.

Not trolling, nor am I going to debate my post. Just sharing.

BH

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by remingtonusa

Google it and you will see then you can tell me who’s right instead of just trying to shoot other people down. Let me know what you find out by googling it

Originally Posted by remingtonusa

Ask a veteran hunter if they exist

Your sourcing isn't helping your unstable argument.

Google is a search engine. Not a source of reliable information.

And what does a veteran hunter have to do with it. I'm a veteran hunter and I say you're full of it. Does that help?

[EZM]

I remember doing some reading on this and having a discussion while in University about this so bear with me.....The bottom line on hybridization (between Mule and Whitetails) are rare not simply because of the potential of breeding but, in fact, the bigger challenges are ...

1) Fertilization rates are extremely low (thought to be a mere fraction of a percentage) when introducing a viable egg with viable sperm. Compare that to a >50% in a conventional situation where a doe is bred once to buck once (of the same species).

2) In estrus, these hybrids are often not brought to term with an exceptionally high in utero mortality rate.

3) These hybrids, if brought to term, and born alive, are often carriers of recessive genes, mutations and other birth defects.

4) A "healthy" hybrid, surviving to maturity, given the above information, is exceptionally rare - very few cases are documented in the entirety of North America and even less are confirmed scientifically.

I have searched the internet for this data, and can't find anything, but I do specifically recall this topic being discussed, and do remember looking at some "deer farm" data that would have been back in the 90's which was one of the key data points in this study and dissertation on this topic.

[sk270]

Originally Posted by EZM

I remember doing some reading on this and having a discussion while in University about this so bear with me.....The bottom line on hybridization (between Mule and Whitetails) are rare not simply because of the potential of breeding but, in fact, the bigger challenges are ...

1) Fertilization rates are extremely low (thought to be a mere fraction of a percentage) when introducing a viable egg with viable sperm. Compare that to a >50% in a conventional situation where a doe is bred once to buck once (of the same species).

2) In estrus, these hybrids are often not brought to term with an exceptionally high in utero mortality rate.

3) These hybrids, if brought to term, and born alive, are often carriers of recessive genes, mutations and other birth defects.

4) A "healthy" hybrid, surviving to maturity, given the above information, is exceptionally rare - very few cases are documented in the entirety of North America and even less are confirmed scientifically.

I have searched the internet for this data, and can't find anything, but I do specifically recall this topic being discussed, and do remember looking at some "deer farm" data that would have been back in the 90's which was one of the key data points in this study and dissertation on this topic.

This has become an interesting topic rather than a troll thread. I have to disagree a bit with both rem338win and EZM.

Google is a search engine which will lead to reliable information.

EZM presents some good information. I recall similar information about interspecific hybrids in some of my classes.

However, unlike EZM, I found quite a bit of information on the internet, some of it contradictory. If anyone can cite a comprehensive summary I would appreciate it.

In the meantime, I found the following:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile...-sequences.pdf
Hybridization between species has resulted in a low level of reciprocal genetic introgression.


http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/z91-179
O.v. virginianus and O.v. hemionus have different nuclear genomes but similar mitochondrial genomes.
Allozyme frequency and mtDNA indicate restriction in gene flow between O.v. hemionus and
O.v. virginianus.

https://bioone.org/journals/the-sout...2.0.CO;2.short
If not for behavioural and morphological differences, the two would be considered subspecies in the same genus, according to these authors based on ribosomal and mitochondrial DNA.

Fertility in an F1 male hybrid of white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus)× mule deer (O. hemionus)
No apparent anomalies that would reduce fertility. However, F1 hybrids are rare.
Our data do not support the contention that hybrid sterility limits interspecific hybridization.

To distinguish hybrids, Generally, the most reliable character is the length of the metatarsal gland, ^ 70 mm long in mule deer and ^42 mm long in white-tailed deer.

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/z88-240
Infertility of F1 hybrids in captive deer herd not explained but apparent.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3783860...n_tab_contents
Serum albumin tests revealed that 3 of 34 mule deer tested in 1992 had hybrid ancestry with white-tailed deer. Our results suggest that in local areas, incidence of introgressive hybridization between species may be as great as 19% (3/16=0.188).

Any further citations would be appreciated.

[SLH]

Slow day at work so I just headed down the same rabbit hole.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...46549811785505

interesting pic.

an old paper by a guy named Kramer 1973 says only found 6 hybrids out of several thousand in Alberta (whatever that means). KRAMER, A. 1973, Interspecific behavior and dispersion of two sympatric deer species. Journal of Wildlife Management 37: 288-300.

If several thousand means maybe 10000 that would mean that maybe 30 hybrids are shot in Alberta every year (I think we harvest around 50000 deer a year).

Here's a great quote;

Whitetail/mule deer hybrids in the wild have been reported in most areas of range overlap. Despite these widespread occurrences, true hybrids are actually very uncommon. The relative scarcity of confirmed hybrids among the thousands of deer seen each year throughout the area of range overlap illustrates how rare they are. Every year numerous reports are received of hybrid deer from hunters, but most aren’t. Some of these hybrid reports come from hunters who have placed their whitetail tag on the leg of a mule deer and are trying to convince the game warden they are at least half right.