Interesting day on PCR and F&W

artrye · #1 02-12-2012, 10:03 PM

Nice day on the ice today, Ice was around 16" by the boat launch.
3 nice burbots and about 8 walleye. In 23 FOW.

Someone called the F&W on our group saying we were cooking up walleye in our area. Sure enough when 2 F&W show up, they tore through all our belongings and through every inch of our vehicles. Apparently, the person who called in says we were stashing walleye in our vehicles and our backpacks. They also reported us cooking up a load of walleye. I kept all the burbot remains in a bag if we were to get checked, good thing I did. Cause it was the first thing F&W were looking for.
It is a good thing they are out checking, but this is ridiculous. Of the person actually witnessed us taking walleye why not confront us instead of making up false stories of stashing fish in our vehicles. Every part of the vehicle was checked even the engine bay, even my wife's purse was checked for walleye. My 8 year old daughter was asking "why are the police in my backpack, daddy?"
Geez a good relaxing day on the ice with te family turned into an embarrassing hunt for the falsely accused stashed walleye.
F&W apologized, for the intrusion, but I cannot blame them doing their job. As I have made frequent calls to them myself when I see or confront other poachers of their wrong doings.

I've fished for years and never encountered this... Funny thing is...
NOTHING we were doing were illegal nor one walleye was taken. All barbless hooks, eight licenses, one child fishing. Ok, maybe a warning on two cans of beer.

In the end all was good... Embarrassed but good.
On a side note though, no damn night Burbot was caught..

CamoDerrick · #2 02-12-2012, 10:15 PM

Its usually better to call the F&W then confront a bunch of guys. For safety reasons.

I don't see a benefit to the accuser of falsely calling in and reporting you. Can not blame the F&W though, they believed they had a strong tip off and needed to search everything.

Unfortunate for you though

Pikecrazed · #3 02-12-2012, 10:16 PM

What were you using

as bait and rigs

artrye · #4 02-12-2012, 10:52 PM

Don't get me wrong, I do not blame F&W at all for doing what they did. I knew something was up when they rushed us. Lol, should have seen them enter the lake, let's just say I wouldn't drive like that with my daughter in the truck on the ice. We had nothing to hide.. Just discouraging is all. They did what they had to do, no harm was done. Just please get the facts straight and true, rather than make stories up to harass a few guys and my family enjoying the day.

horsetrader · #5 02-12-2012, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artrye

Don't get me wrong, I do not blame F&W at all for doing what they did. I knew something was up when they rushed us. Lol, should have seen them enter the lake, let's just say I wouldn't drive like that with my daughter in the truck on the ice. We had nothing to hide.. Just discouraging is all. They did what they had to do, no harm was done.

Your a stand up guy for your attitude towards the F&W many would not be. Just feel bad for your daughter hope she was not shaken to bad.

slivers86 · #6 02-12-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by horsetrader

Your a stand up guy for your attitude towards the F&W many would not be. Just feel bad for your daughter hope she was not shaken to bad.

x2 - you had a burb fry - the average person going out for a quick day who didn't know a lot about fishing (myself at the start of last years open water) would never know there was anything but walleye in there

The fish guys just doing their job... I remember when someone said I was fishing with bait at carseland... lol the fish guy came down, asked for my license and stuff (this was a week after I got my license) and talked to me for a few... asked to look at my hook and laughed... He said some 'person' on the other side of the river saw me rig up bait! We had a good laugh, and talked about our similar appointments when it came to work. Never had a bad experience.

TR, friends, and I were out on lake x a couple weeks ago and had a CO come check out our rig. We got talking about the forum, the boy and girls meet, and caught a pike while he was there. He checked our sled for booze, checked 1 line, and watched us release a small pike. Stood around to BS for about 15 minutes before walking back across the ice. Good guys, doing a good job. Too bad there aren't more of them

canadiantdi · #7 02-13-2012, 12:01 AM

I was thinking that it was strange that they were allowed to search you just based on a tip from another angler. I would think that they would be able to make contact with you to investigate, but need some sort of probable cause to go ahead and conduct such an intrusive search. But then I looked at the alberta fisheries act and it looks like they can search you whenever they want! Yikes! He just has to believe, on reasonable grounds, that either fish or fishing equipment are contained there (ice fishing tent, vehicle etc)

Am I the only one who finds it unreasonable that they can conduct such an invasive search without gaining probable cause from an initial investigation?

I know in your case you were cooking and had fish remains, but checking your engine bay, wifes purse etc?

Search

27(1) A fishery officer or fishery guardian may,

(a) on obtaining a warrant, or

(b) without a warrant if the officer or guardian believes on reasonable and probable grounds that it is not practical to obtain a warrant because the necessary delay may result in the loss of evidence,

search for fish and fishing equipment in any vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft or railway car, or in any business premises, building, tent or structure unless it is used as a private dwelling, when, on reasonable grounds, the officer or guardian believes that fish or fishing equipment is contained there.
(2) A fishery officer or fishery guardian may require the operator or person in possession of a vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack or container to produce all fish and fishing equipment in or on the vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack or container for the purpose of inspection and to determine the number, species and size of the fish and to ascertain whether the fish are fit for human consumption, diseased or infested with parasites, if

(a) any fish or fishing equipment in or on the vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack or container is in plain view of the officer or guardian, or

(b) the officer or guardian believes, on reasonable and probable grounds, that the vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack or container contains or is carrying fish or fishing equipment.

(3) A fishery officer or fishery guardian may require the owner or occupant of any business premises, building, tent or other structure that is not used as a private dwelling to produce all fish and fishing equipment in the business premises, building, tent or structure for the purpose of inspection and to determine the number, species and size of the fish and to ascertain whether the fish are fit for human consumption, diseased or infested with parasites, if

(a) any fish or fishing equipment in the business premises, building, tent or other structure is in plain view of the officer or guardian, or

(b) the officer or guardian believes, on reasonable and probable grounds, that the business premises, building, tent or other structure contains fish or fishing equipment.

(4) When a fishery officer or fishery guardian requires a person to produce fish or fishing equipment for inspection under this section, that person shall forthwith produce all fish and fishing equipment in or on the vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack, container, business premises, building, tent or other structure to the officer or guardian.

BeeGuy · #8 02-13-2012, 12:11 AM

It's pretty amazing that an anonymous tip can lead to the searching of people, their possessions and vehicles.

If it was me, I would have been pretty angry.

We have laws against unreasonable search and to me this would have qualified.

Whatever happened to proof?

As I recall there are a bunch of militant members here with rap on speed dial who will call over any perceived violation.

BeeGuy · #9 02-13-2012, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Am I the only one who finds it unreasonable that they can conduct such an invasive search without gaining probable cause from an initial investigation?

No, I find it somewhat unreasonable.

That said, we can probably refuse a search to some degree with the option of arrest (?) I dont know.

Anything found in the search outside of fish and fishing equipment would likely not stand up in court.

Some evidence above and beyond a phone call should be required to conduct a search like that. I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

BeeGuy · #10 02-13-2012, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

Search

27(1) A fishery officer or fishery guardian may,

(a) on obtaining a warrant, or

(b) without a warrant if the officer or guardian believes on reasonable and probable grounds that it is not practical to obtain a warrant because the necessary delay may result in the loss of evidence,

search for fish and fishing equipment in any vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft or railway car, or in any business premises, building, tent or structure unless it is used as a private dwelling, when, on reasonable grounds, the officer or guardian believes that fish or fishing equipment is contained there.
(2) A fishery officer or fishery guardian may require the operator or person in possession of a vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack or container to produce all fish and fishing equipment in or on the vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack or container for the purpose of inspection and to determine the number, species and size of the fish and to ascertain whether the fish are fit for human consumption, diseased or infested with parasites, if

(a) any fish or fishing equipment in or on the vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack or container is in plain view of the officer or guardian, or

(b) the officer or guardian believes, on reasonable and probable grounds, that the vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack or container contains or is carrying fish or fishing equipment.

(3) A fishery officer or fishery guardian may require the owner or occupant of any business premises, building, tent or other structure that is not used as a private dwelling to produce all fish and fishing equipment in the business premises, building, tent or structure for the purpose of inspection and to determine the number, species and size of the fish and to ascertain whether the fish are fit for human consumption, diseased or infested with parasites, if

(a) any fish or fishing equipment in the business premises, building, tent or other structure is in plain view of the officer or guardian, or

(b) the officer or guardian believes, on reasonable and probable grounds, that the business premises, building, tent or other structure contains fish or fishing equipment.

(4) When a fishery officer or fishery guardian requires a person to produce fish or fishing equipment for inspection under this section, that person shall forthwith produce all fish and fishing equipment in or on the vehicle, aircraft, boat or other watercraft, railway car, animal, pack, container, business premises, building, tent or other structure to the officer or guardian.

It seems in my opinion that these officers did not have reasonable or probable grounds to execute a search beyond what was on the ice.

Things to be aware of when dealing with these people is whether you fall into the 'leading questions' trap.

"Do you mind if we take a look in your car" This can be worded many ways and made to seem like you have no choice in the matter.

It is very easy and good practice to tell officers that you do not consent to a search. This way they will ensure they have reasonable and probable grounds.

gatorhunter · #11 02-13-2012, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by canadiantdi

He just has to believe, on reasonable grounds, that either fish or fishing equipment are contained there (ice fishing tent, vehicle etc)

There is no requirement for believing that an offense has been committed to allow a fisheries officer to inspect and/or search anything related to fishing activity, other than a dwelling/residence.

The requirements are reasonable grounds for belief that fishing activity was or had occurred. Obviously, fishing activity was occurring so that burden was met.

The officers could then search "anything" that could contain fish; including a purse or child's back pack. They could search that vehicle from one end to another too; again because the burden of reasonable grounds being met by witnessing fishing activity.

There are definitely "right" ways to conduct such compliance efforts to make sure that the incident ends in a positive experience for the innocent party.

Fish have been found under the hoods, under spare tires, interior compartments and under seats. My personal favourite is sauger fillets in a travel mug!

The various Provincial Fishery Acts and Regulations give fisheries officers the authority to enter into such things as fishing shelters as they are not residences or dwellings. More than one illegal boozer has found that out the hard way.

People who try to prevent officers from searching items and/or places where fish could be found can be arrested and/or charged with obstructing a fishery officer.

As for how the officers are alleged to have been driving, that's what they do to give subjects less time to destroy evidence.