Sheep on a Draw?

[ishootbambi]

bullseye sheepguide. you and i have different ideas how to get there, but there is no question that the province is managing sheep for numbers and opportunity rather than trophy quality. a lot of guys would like to see a few more rams live to maturity and become true trophies. and yes trophy is a matter of opinion. there are several guys here quite happy to shoot every legal ram they see, but some of us would like better. the same can be said for moose, and elk. alberta is not a prime destination for those species either if its a trophy you want. yes a few exist, but for the most part, a true trophy size animal is far too rare. mule deer is a different story though. some areas, particularly where i live, you can hunt EVERY year....on a draw zone????? thats real. some areas every second year. those zones have almost zero mature bucks. look around the province however and you see a number of places where tags are harder to come by and there are numerous trophy bucks to be hunted. im sure you are dying to know just what is a trophy in my mind, so here ya go. mule deer start at 175, whitetails at 160, sheep at 170, elk at 330, and most guys have no idea how to score a moose so ill keep it simple and just say 55 inches wide. thats just my OPINION. you can decide for yourself what you think.

[dinosaur hunter]

more than rumors a few in asrd think this would help but lets look at facts
first sheep numbers are unchanged in over 30 yrs. sheep hunters are down if anything
harvest has not changed at all in last 30 yrs most consistent numbers ASRD( fish and Willife) has
so what is the problem????

Age Structure " not as many real old rams in some area's"

is the cause over hunting ??
I think not

lets look when the areas concerned far south started to loss age structure "not numbers" it is right about the same time the bow valley wolf pack was re introduced "same area" and same time many restriction came into effect on cougar harvest "Quota licensing" . This was the number one cougar area in Alberta "south western Alberta" and it had a high harvest rate


Lets look at sheep behavior , "older Rams become more solitary and tend to spend more time in the timber", predators are more effective hunting lone animals in heavy cover
a full curl rule was put in but only increased the average harvest age by one year but definitely decreased the over all harvest .If this was effective management then over all harvest should have returned after one year but it didn't so obviously hunting is not the problem

putting sheep on a draw is a quick fix that punishes the people that care and pay the bill "hunters" it does nothing to solve the problem "wildlife and habitat management" the real the answer
but that will never happen till we stand up and say deal with the problem and quit punishing us we care about the resource the anti hunters don't

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

What rumours are you talking about, the sheep populations are healthy from what I've see in the zones I have hunted. Why fix something that isn't broke. I think that maybe this issue is being pushed by some of the older Sheep hunters that can't get out anymore and they are done Sheep hunting andso should everybody else in there eyes.

What rumours you ask? The rumours that started this thread!

[dinosaur hunter]

rafter
may be some of the older bureaucrats who don;t want to do their job manage wildlife new solution "fewer hunters =fewer who care= less work"

[209x50]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

bullseye sheepguide. you and i have different ideas how to get there, but there is no question that the province is managing sheep for numbers and opportunity rather than trophy quality. a lot of guys would like to see a few more rams live to maturity and become true trophies. and yes trophy is a matter of opinion. there are several guys here quite happy to shoot every legal ram they see, but some of us would like better. the same can be said for moose, and elk. alberta is not a prime destination for those species either if its a trophy you want. yes a few exist, but for the most part, a true trophy size animal is far too rare. mule deer is a different story though. some areas, particularly where i live, you can hunt EVERY year....on a draw zone????? thats real. some areas every second year. those zones have almost zero mature bucks. look around the province however and you see a number of places where tags are harder to come by and there are numerous trophy bucks to be hunted. im sure you are dying to know just what is a trophy in my mind, so here ya go. mule deer start at 175, whitetails at 160, sheep at 170, elk at 330, and most guys have no idea how to score a moose so ill keep it simple and just say 55 inches wide. thats just my OPINION. you can decide for yourself what you think.

6 days you have hunted sheep and such an expert, imagine if you had hunted sheep as many years as some of these guys have> You'd be a wealth of knowledge and perhaps your opinion might change with more information.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by 209x50

6 days you have hunted sheep and such an expert, imagine if you had hunted sheep as many years as some of these guys have> You'd be a wealth of knowledge and perhaps your opinion might change with more information.

Ya no doubt, I have a family member that shot 13 1/2 year old ram in the Willmore in the late 70's that barely went 170.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Ya no doubt, I have a family member that shot 13 1/2 year old ram in the Willmore in the late 70's that barely went 170.

And yes not all sheep have the genetics to be huge rams but at least that ram was mature. Every zone has the potential to and has produced record book sheep. I think the big thing alot of guys on here are saying is that they would like to see a few more big rams around. Sure some guys just want that easy book ram but being able to see multiple 170+ sheep each year would be nice. Sure anyone that has been out there much has seen them but how many every year. I know alot of guys will say they see a few and the odd guys does but not many guys see big rams. Not many see legal rams. How many see an honest 180 in a year? How many have ever seen a 190" in an area other than cadomin? How bout a 200". Not many and guarenteed only a couple have seen an honest 200" ram(in an open season in an open zone). But everyone agrees that a few more of these running around would be nice!

Alot of guys say sheep populations are good! Alot say not so good! So what is a good sheep population for Alberta?

SG

[dinosaur hunter]

look guys the only place producing big sheep is Cadomin when at one time all Alberta had a great age structure and had even more serious hunters than we have today So why does Cadomin produce such good age structure? It certainly is the most hunted wmu in Alberta but it also has minimal if any predation because of all the human activity

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

And yes not all sheep have the genetics to be huge rams but at least that ram was mature. Every zone has the potential to and has produced record book sheep. I think the big thing alot of guys on here are saying is that they would like to see a few more big rams around. Sure some guys just want that easy book ram but being able to see multiple 170+ sheep each year would be nice. Sure anyone that has been out there much has seen them but how many every year. I know alot of guys will say they see a few and the odd guys does but not many guys see big rams. Not many see legal rams. How many see an honest 180 in a year? How many have ever seen a 190" in an area other than cadomin? How bout a 200". Not many and guarenteed only a couple have seen an honest 200" ram(in an open season in an open zone). But everyone agrees that a few more of these running around would be nice!

Alot of guys say sheep populations are good! Alot say not so good! So what is a good sheep population for Alberta?

SG

You were the one on here last year talking about all the giant rams in the province and that Cadomin wasn['t the best place in Alberta for big rams. So what changed in a year?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

You were the one on here last year talking about all the giant rams in the province and that Cadomin wasn['t the best place in Alberta for big rams. So what changed in a year?

I never said anything changed.
There are big rams along our whole province there old fella! And we would see alot different stats if we could hunt the whole province in November.
We are talking about big rams out and about year around in all zones that hold sheep not just the couple that happen to wander out of the parks or sanctuary's or that one that was a little late heading back. The number of old mature rams that hang around during an open season are a very low percentage!

If the hunting in alberta was so great you probably could have shot a couple big rams without getting them on Cadomin draws!!!!

SG

Originally Posted by dinosaur hunter

look guys the only place producing big sheep is Cadomin when at one time all Alberta had a great age structure and had even more serious hunters than we have today So why does Cadomin produce such good age structure? It certainly is the most hunted wmu in Alberta but it also has minimal if any predation because of all the human activity

There are more, grizzlies and wolves in that area than anywhere in Alberta. I have found numerous big game animals taken down by both, including bighorn sheep. Never mind the numerous cougars and black bears which also call the area (and mines) home. The reason it grows big rams is the massive sheep sanctuary (mines) full of tame forage and excellent escape terrain. Many sheep manage to live to old age on those mines (10-15 years), the odd one even wanders off and gets shot.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by dinosaur hunter

look guys the only place producing big sheep is Cadomin when at one time all Alberta had a great age structure and had even more serious hunters than we have today So why does Cadomin produce such good age structure? It certainly is the most hunted wmu in Alberta but it also has minimal if any predation because of all the human activity

I beg to differ. In the last two years there was four book Rams shot in the south country, so cadomins not the only place.

[ishootbambi]

hahaha....and the state of vermont produced a book whitetail last year. does that make them a whitetail mecca that trophy hunters should converge on? yeah, there are a few big sheep in alberta......we are just asking for more. not even neccessarily book, just big mature rams. why are some guys missing that point. if you are satisfied to see maybe one 160 ram a year great. i would like a little more. just the opinion of this trophy hunter.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I never said anything changed.
There are big rams along our whole province there old fella! And we would see alot different stats if we could hunt the whole province in November.
We are talking about big rams out and about year around in all zones that hold sheep not just the couple that happen to wander out of the parks or sanctuary's or that one that was a little late heading back. The number of old mature rams that hang around during an open season are a very low percentage!

If the hunting in alberta was so great you probably could have shot a couple big rams without getting them on Cadomin draws!!!!

SG

So what you are saying is there are lots of big sheep in Alberta they just stay in the parks and sanctuaries. So how is your draw or 5 year plan going to change that? By over populating the parks and forcing the sheep out to where they can be hunted?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So what you are saying is there are lots of big sheep in Alberta they just stay in the parks and sanctuaries. So how is your draw or 5 year plan going to change that? By over populating the parks and forcing the sheep out to where they can be hunted?

You guys are unbeleivable! We are talking about improving the rams that are living outside the parks! Letting the younger rams grow up. The rams will still come out of the parks and a few will get shot every year as they do now. We get the point that a bunch of you dont wanna see change. Thats fine. But really what is wrong with wanting to see a few more big rams on our mountains.
And the 5 year deal was just brought up as that is what a few guys have heard was coming.
Im thinking you will be suprised at what help this will be other than the guys that are mad because they cant shoot a ram every couple years!
And the guys that as TJ said have a passion for the mountains but can only go if they have a sheep tag in their pocket!

Im thinking you will be suprised at what help this will be other than the guys that are mad because they cant shoot a ram every couple years!
And the guys that as TJ said have a passion for the mountains but can only go if they have a sheep tag in their pocket!

Please tell me how you think it will help.

[spot and stock]

I hunt a long way from any parks, and if you go look for sheep out of the season there are big rams 170's 180's, and a few lucky guys find them during the season. They are always there they just hide, but I do believe there are fewer. It is what it is, and if I have to wait an extra few years between rams for a chance at a better one thats fine. I don't mind going with a buddy in the meantime. If he shoots a 180 ram when I don't have a tag good I get the pictures without the taxidermy bill.

[ramshorn]

i too would like to see more big rams, but as TJ has said no one has explained how a five year wiat would produce more big rams. So until someone can explain that, i am against a five year wait or a draw because i don't see how either will produce more big rams during hunting season.

Originally Posted by spot and stock

I hunt a long way from any parks, and if you go look for sheep out of the season there are big rams 170's 180's, and a few lucky guys find them during the season. They are always there they just hide, but I do believe there are fewer. It is what it is, and if I have to wait an extra few years between rams for a chance at a better one thats fine. I don't mind going with a buddy in the meantime. If he shoots a 180 ram when I don't have a tag good I get the pictures without the taxidermy bill.

But how will that help the sheep population? Basically if you don't kill it, you'll help someone else kill it. The sheep is still dead.

Before we start coming up with solutions, we really need to identify the problem. Is there really an elite group of sheep hunters that are so good at what they do and so blood thirsty that they've reduced the sheep population? I personally don't see it but am open to being convinced. So far, SRD has not provided me with any numbers as to how many hunters actually kill multiple sheep in a short time span. I honestly don't buy it.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You guys are unbeleivable! We are talking about improving the rams that are living outside the parks! Letting the younger rams grow up. The rams will still come out of the parks and a few will get shot every year as they do now. We get the point that a bunch of you dont wanna see change. Thats fine. But really what is wrong with wanting to see a few more big rams on our mountains.
And the 5 year deal was just brought up as that is what a few guys have heard was coming.
Im thinking you will be suprised at what help this will be other than the guys that are mad because they cant shoot a ram every couple years!
And the guys that as TJ said have a passion for the mountains but can only go if they have a sheep tag in their pocket!

Jeepers even you should realize that the small rams get out of the parks because the big guys own everything in the parks. The only time the big guys leave is for the rut or the occasional brain fart. Over population may push more big rams out but I doubt it. More than likely what will happen is a disease and die off similar to the moose tick wipe out a few years back. The game managers admitted that many ranges were carrying 30% more moose population than usual. Funny thing the die off averaged 30%, huh, go figure that. If we keeping loosing hunting opportunities to parks and sanctuaries in the mountains we will still never have enough sheep for them to make it to non traditional range, mother nature will see to that. Hey I'm all for more opportunities but the method of getting them has to make sense, what is being proposed doesn't. Time and again it has been proven that we can't stockpile game and have it sitting there on the shelf.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Jeepers even you should realize that the small rams get out of the parks because the big guys own everything in the parks. The only time the big guys leave is for the rut or the occasional brain fart. Over population may push more big rams out but I doubt it. More than likely what will happen is a disease and die off similar to the moose tick wipe out a few years back. The game managers admitted that many ranges were carrying 30% more moose population than usual. Funny thing the die off averaged 30%, huh, go figure that. If we keeping loosing hunting opportunities to parks and sanctuaries in the mountains we will still never have enough sheep for them to make it to non traditional range, mother nature will see to that. Hey I'm all for more opportunities but the method of getting them has to make sense, what is being proposed doesn't. Time and again it has been proven that we can't stockpile game and have it sitting there on the shelf.

So why dont they make it a 5 year wait to go hunt in all of the provincial parks they have made in the mountains over the last 20 years.???? That would bring those numbers in check.

[Gulo gulo]

Ok, after talking to a few Bio's it appears that the sheep populations in the province in most areas are doing fine. In fact the willmore area is actually high right now. The proposed change comes from apos as they have been lobbying SRD to reduce the amount of residents on the mountains in hopes of having a more quality hunt for their clients who are spending the big dollars.

It is important for the for the members of this forum to realize that the 5 year wait will NOT increase trophy potential. It will only change who shoots the sheep.


As born and raised Albertan I know as many of you know that this province was bulit on hard work and sweat. We work hard and play hard. I feel it would be unfair to punished those same hard working, taxpaying, Albertans(who own the resource) for busting their butts off on the mountain.

Cheers

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

The proposed change comes from apos as they have been lobbying SRD to reduce the amount of residents on the mountains in hopes of having a more quality hunt for their clients who are spending the big dollars.

Cheers

With all of the discussion on this topic this is the only driver that I can figure pushing a draw or increasing the wait time for sucessful resident hunters by 500%..

Curious if a Non residents wait time will be increased proportionally to the Residents?

Originally Posted by LongDraw

With all of the discussion on this topic this is the only driver that I can figure pushing a draw or increasing the wait time for sucessful hunters by 500%..

There is a push from one group of resident hunters as well. I can't see it being born out of anything more than jealousy but it scares the heck out of me that F&W is considering it and refering to it as a solution.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Gulo gulo

Ok, after talking to a few Bio's it appears that the sheep populations in the province in most areas are doing fine. In fact the willmore area is actually high right now. The proposed change comes from apos as they have been lobbying SRD to reduce the amount of residents on the mountains in hopes of having a more quality hunt for their clients who are spending the big dollars.

It is important for the for the members of this forum to realize that the 5 year wait will NOT increase trophy potential. It will only change who shoots the sheep.


As born and raised Albertan I know as many of you know that this province was bulit on hard work and sweat. We work hard and play hard. I feel it would be unfair to punished those same hard working, taxpaying, Albertans(who own the resource) for busting their butts off on the mountain.

Cheers

I dont see that waiting to harvest a ram for 5 years is punishment! You just shot a ram, guys should be elated and be happy to wait a couple extra years to get another.
Not sure how you think that a 5 year wait wont help. How many guys do you think hunt bighorn on a regular basis? Its not huge numbers.
On a 5 year wait program in the first 5 years there will be roughly 600 guys that are waiting if you go with an average harvest or 120 rams per year.
Its not like there is a huge influx of new hunters hunting sheep every year.
alot of the new hunters hunting sheep are going with experienced guys anyways whether that mentor has a tag or not. Its not gunna change or affect the new hunter harvest but will affect guys that shoot a just legal ram every second year.

Its not gunna change or affect the new hunter harvest but will affect guys that shoot a just legal ram every second year.

So how many of those guys are there? I personally don't know of any but the problem must endemic if F&W needs to put an end to the slaughter.... I don't see this as anything but some unsuccessful sheep hunters whining that they can't kill a ram. It's got zero to do with age or population management. If we want more or bigger rams, they need to be managed like any other game animal in Alberta...a draw. I personally don't think we need either but this nonsense of a five-year wait increasing population and age structure is pure BS. It's nothing more than some guys looking for an easier way to kill a ram and showing their jealousy of the successful.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I dont see that waiting to harvest a ram for 5 years is punishment! You just shot a ram, guys should be elated and be happy to wait a couple extra years to get another.
Not sure how you think that a 5 year wait wont help. How many guys do you think hunt bighorn on a regular basis? Its not huge numbers.
On a 5 year wait program in the first 5 years there will be roughly 600 guys that are waiting if you go with an average harvest or 120 rams per year.
Its not like there is a huge influx of new hunters hunting sheep every year.
alot of the new hunters hunting sheep are going with experienced guys anyways whether that mentor has a tag or not. Its not gunna change or affect the new hunter harvest but will affect guys that shoot a just legal ram every second year.

So you think a longer wait would make a sheep hunter that has not harvested a ram pass on the 5, 6, and 7 year olds?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Jeepers even you should realize that the small rams get out of the parks because the big guys own everything in the parks. The only time the big guys leave is for the rut or the occasional brain fart. Over population may push more big rams out but I doubt it. More than likely what will happen is a disease and die off similar to the moose tick wipe out a few years back. The game managers admitted that many ranges were carrying 30% more moose population than usual. Funny thing the die off averaged 30%, huh, go figure that. If we keeping loosing hunting opportunities to parks and sanctuaries in the mountains we will still never have enough sheep for them to make it to non traditional range, mother nature will see to that. Hey I'm all for more opportunities but the method of getting them has to make sense, what is being proposed doesn't. Time and again it has been proven that we can't stockpile game and have it sitting there on the shelf.

So Rich you figure that them small rams are pushed out of the parks during Aug. Sept. and first part of Oct. by the older rams? Nice try them rams all hang together at this time of year. as far as rams pushing other rams out of the parks is a new theory to me. rams usually leave the parks due to 1. weather and 2. the rut.

And as far as you saying that Big rams dont travel out side of parks other than the rut? Hmm thats funny as my Dad shot a 181" ram in Sept. that came out of the park due to weather. And the 2 rams that I helped get my cousin and uncle that are both 175+ and both came out of the park due to weather.

Rams due migrate out of the parks but that has no bearing on the topic being discussed! Im talking about the sheep that never migrate in or out of the parks. Alot of young sheep that are shot every year never have been in a park. And with your wealth of knowledge you shoud know that. But many of these rams will never reach the point of maturity so that the are a breeding ram!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So how many of those guys are there? I personally don't know of any but the problem must endemic if F&W needs to put an end to the slaughter.... I don't see this as anything but some unsuccessful sheep hunters whining that they can't kill a ram. It's got zero to do with age or population management. If we want more or bigger rams, they need to be managed like any other game animal in Alberta...a draw. I personally don't think we need either but this nonsense of a five-year wait increasing population and age structure is pure BS. It's nothing more than some guys looking for an easier way to kill a ram and showing their jealousy of the successful.

Ya thats my issue TJ im jealouse of the guys killing rams, superstars such as you and Rich. And I do know of 3 or 4 guys that have killed 3 - 5 rams all 2-3 years apart all under 165 and all under 7 years old. But I guess if you dont know of any than its not an issue.
Im not saying that our sheep hunting isnt good and yes every year some great rams are shot. Some guys would just like to see an improvment in mature rams being shot. If your against that its your right.
Im not saying the 5 year wait is for sure gunna help but 600 guys having to wait 5 years has got to do something!
Sure our sheep populations are decent but sure arent at or near the carrying capacity of the land.
SG

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So Rich you figure that them small rams are pushed out of the parks during Aug. Sept. and first part of Oct. by the older rams? Nice try them rams all hang together at this time of year. as far as rams pushing other rams out of the parks is a new theory to me. rams usually leave the parks due to 1. weather and 2. the rut.

And as far as you saying that Big rams dont travel out side of parks other than the rut? Hmm thats funny as my Dad shot a 181" ram in Sept. that came out of the park due to weather. And the 2 rams that I helped get my cousin and uncle that are both 175+ and both came out of the park due to weather.

Rams due migrate out of the parks but that has no bearing on the topic being discussed! Im talking about the sheep that never migrate in or out of the parks. Alot of young sheep that are shot every year never have been in a park. And with your wealth of knowledge you shoud know that. But many of these rams will never reach the point of maturity so that the are a breeding ram!

I realize that simple minds look for simple solutions but other than your obvious bias toward guiding and nonresident opportunities, even you have to have sat down and done the math on numbers of tags bought and hunter success rates. Just how many years do you suppose it would take before the success rate dropped? It would have to drop in order for there to be this increase in trophy rams you are projecting. When you figure out how many years it would take for the drop to occur (20 - 30 years who knows?) that is how long a person should have to wait after shooting a ram for the system to work. Even then it would constantly being skewed by new hunters entering the system. So how is this going to work?