Sheep on a Draw?

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by buddyhunter

209 which club in the south is asking for this? I only ask because there has been a couple of people on here, Gulo and SLH, who have actually poken with biologists and stated that they are the ones considering the 5 year wait. Yet you seem to believe that it is a F&G club in the south that is pushing for this. I have memberships with many F&G clubs down here in the south and haven't heard of them pushing for longer wait times.

So which club is it?

Willow Valley????

[209x50]

Originally Posted by SLH

I think that Swaro's idea has merit but I also beleive that it won't be implemented because of its complexity but 209 you should try and see the merit in that approach. First that big ram is not an every year occurence where as a legal ram could be. I will virtually gaurantee that if the only rams you shoot are 190 and over that very few people would have one and three would be unheard of unless some system like this was put into place to put more big rams on the mountain. I know when you just here it it seems counter intuitive but it makes sense if the ultimate goal is to have bigger rams on the mountain. As for standing in front of them and explaining its merits you have to explain to them that the problem hunter to big rams is not the guy killing a big ram but the guy killing a small one.

Personally I'd rather see a wait than a draw I can still be selective every year rather than feeling the pressure of last day of the season maybe only 3 more times in my life. My sense from discussions I've had is that there are other means to improving things before a draw will be implemented and perhaps some of the quad access issues in the south this past year are signs of things to come.

Does anyone know if AFGA has a direct line to the table that is making these decisions like the wild sheep federation has.

I CAN see the merits of Swaro's idea. It is the practical application of the process the bothers me. I don't believe there are enough like minded people such as Swarvo and yourself to make a difference under the system and raise the average age of the rams killed. Do see what I'm getting at? The system doesn't enforce the taking of certain age rams it more like recommends it.

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

They were all CO's Swaro, one fellow was at both measurings. I didn't and still don't feel like bashing them for what some here feel is a committable offence or at the least a major character flaw. I look at it this way; their jobs encompass so much and there are so many things they know a heck of a lot more about than I do, I'd have to be pretty small minded and mean spirited to take this small occurrence and use it to judge them as idiots.

I'm sorry if I made them out to sound like idiots it was not intended, but in my opinion aging a sheep is straightforward. Maybe we need to designate a regional manager expert like BC?

Originally Posted by 209x50

“someone”? That is good enough for you to just offer up your rights because “someone” thinks there is a problem? Shouldn’t we actually see a study or something?.

I would love to see a study however based on Alberta's track record many rules and regs are passed that magically seem to appear in the next years regs and by then its too late.

Originally Posted by 209x50

The COs wouldn't allow me to take pictures of them measuring or plugging a ram, it was no big deal just something for my scrapbook. But it made them uncomfortable. Do you suppose they are going to want to be involved in your system where their decision is the basis for punishment? I don't think so and I don't think it is fair to push it on them. I know the first time one was named in a law suit (which will come as sure as the sun rises in the east) the rest of them would refuse and who could blame them? Then what? We hire ram judges? Someone with some sort of legal standing because they are meting out punishment just like a court judge.

Adopt a regional manager like BC and with manager comes responsibilty. We already have court cases with short immature sheep being shot and maybe with this system there would less short immature sheep shot because everyone is discouraged from taking them to begin with and therefore less court cases overall.

Originally Posted by 209x50

Over the last couple of days I've tried explaining your system to hunting buddies. None of these guys are hardcore like Sheephunter but all chase sheep every year they can. To a man when they realized that your plan would reward the guy with the oldest/biggest trophy they flipped. To a man they figured you had it exactly reversed from where it should be and suggested that the person with the big trophy should be punished the most, perhaps never allowed to hunt sheep again as he already had a trophy ram. These are just normal Joe Alberta hunters and all want is to put a sheep on the wall but none believe in the elitist ideas proffered by your plan. None believe that sheep are anymore special than any other big game species that can be hunted in Alberta. Now I know these people sound like heretics to you but they are just regular guys, hunters. These are the people you would stand in front of and explain why you with your big sheep shouldn’t be punished and they with their little one should. I know people like sheepguide don’t have the foresight or intelligence to reason this through but you do. Do you see where this can head?.

The inherent problem in my opinion is sheep are more special than any other big game species and the normal Joe Alberta Hunters still have every opportunity they do now to tag just a legal 4/5 6-year old but if they do they will wait several years before they can tag another ram as in my opinion that ram is not part of the "bumper crop". In the NWT it is common knowledge that for every 6, 7 and 8 year old ram you kill there is a 10, 11 and 12 year old that is going to die of old age... No were not in the NWT and yes we have parks that protect a large majority of these sheep but we wouldn't need so many parks if guys adopted this practice.

Originally Posted by 209x50

I'm not mocking here Swaro just trying amid the clamor of the yapping dogs to have a discussion with you. perhaps we should take this to pms.

I value your constructive critiscism here and I think everyone should here it! It tests the system in theory anyways.

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Thank you for that. Are there any jurisdictions that judge legal bighorns by age alone?

Not to my knowledge but neither would this system be. I think you would have to maintain the 4/5 rule in Alberta.

[LongDraw]

With all the discussion on difficulty with aging bighorns I would add the comment that is is certainly not difficult to tell if the ram is 5 or 6 years old; these are the rams that some of you do not want killed, legal or not. The rams that are 8+ years old are where it gets more difficult to age. Where you see the most debate is if a ram is 10, 11, or 12 or older. Either way a 10 year old is certainly well into his senior years and a 12 year old is very rare, park or not. In human terms a 12 year old ram is like a 100 yr old person, and a 10 year old ram is like a human around 90 or so. In an unhunted area most rams just never make it to 10 years old. So all the pressure would be on the rams 8, 9, and 10+. Not very many sheep so you can see why you would have to severely limit the hunting pressure to be way less than the population of this age class.

Some of you compare our rams with Montana. some of these 190+ rams that they killed stateside are only 7 years old- a Young immature "legal" ram by Alberta Standards. Pretty tough to use Montana as a benchmark when they have 3 months more prime graze in some areas because they are farther south.

Where I am going with this is it is alot easier to seperate "legal" sheep in alberta into 2 groups- under 7 yrs and over 7 yrs. I think the consensus amongst sheep hunters and some that manage the herd is the same; an 8+ year old ram is a "mature" animal. They are done the majority of their growing by the time they are 8.

I think adding in horn score into any equation of what designates a mature ram is a mistake.

I also agree that the only way to be certain that there are more mature sheep ( 8+ yrs) is to limit the amount of hunters in a certain zone lower than the ammount of mature sheep. This is the only thing that will work. This being said I do not agree that there is a problem with the current system.

Be careful what you wish for. If guys want to see these 8+ year old sheep with more consistency that means only a handful of permits in the zones where this is the objective. With more guys specifically targeting old rams as the managenment objective this equates to way less tags to keep this goal sustainable. You will be very surprised how few tags if this is the goal.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I CAN see the merits of Swaro's idea. It is the practical application of the process the bothers me. I don't believe there are enough like minded people such as Swarvo and yourself to make a difference under the system and raise the average age of the rams killed. Do see what I'm getting at? The system doesn't enforce the taking of certain age rams it more like recommends it.

I know what your are saying but it is an interesting idea. Its implementation would have to be based on a means to age these things, but it does address the issue of short (re: young) rams. The problem I think in aging them is that in some cases there isn't a specific person that does have experience with it. If you register your ram in Lloydminister do you think you will get the same expereinced individual you might get at Canmore. It would depend on some kind of standardized person or system.

As for the "problem" it does appear that age structure in some Central and North Central Zones have some problems. Numbers may be good but mature rams may be down. I think they are looking at all ideas to improve this without going to a draw as there first response. Its a tricky game they are balancing due to the complexities of the species and those that hunt them.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

With all the discussion on difficulty with aging bighorns I would add the comment that is is certainly not difficult to tell if the ram is 5 or 6 years old; these are the rams that some of you do not want killed, legal or not. The rams that are 8+ years old are where it gets more difficult to age. Where you see the most debate is if a ram is 10, 11, or 12 or older. Either way a 10 year old is certainly well into his senior years and a 12 year old is very rare, park or not. In human terms a 12 year old ram is like a 100 yr old person, and a 10 year old ram is like a human around 90 or so. In an unhunted area most rams just never make it to 10 years old. So all the pressure would be on the rams 8, 9, and 10+. Not very many sheep so you can see why you would have to severely limit the hunting pressure to be way less than the population of this age class.

Some of you compare our rams with Montana. some of these 190+ rams that they killed stateside are only 7 years old- a Young immature "legal" ram by Alberta Standards. Pretty tough to use Montana as a benchmark when they have 3 months more prime graze in some areas because they are farther south.

Where I am going with this is it is alot easier to seperate "legal" sheep in alberta into 2 groups- under 7 yrs and over 7 yrs. I think the consensus amongst sheep hunters and some that manage the herd is the same; an 8+ year old ram is a "mature" animal. They are done the majority of their growing by the time they are 8.

I think adding in horn score into any equation of what designates a mature ram is a mistake.

I also agree that the only way to be certain that there are more mature sheep ( 8+ yrs) is to limit the amount of hunters in a certain zone lower than the ammount of mature sheep. This is the only thing that will work. This being said I do not agree that there is a problem with the current system.

Be careful what you wish for. If guys want to see these 8+ year old sheep with more consistency that means only a handful of permits in the zones where this is the objective. With more guys specifically targeting old rams as the managenment objective this equates to way less tags to keep this goal sustainable. You will be very surprised how few tags if this is the goal.

Very good post LongDraw the last two paragraphs really sum the situation up for me. Sometimes we should be happy with what we have and not meddle with a good ting.

[Dr Death]

Definitely not Willow Valley pushing for sheep changes. Quite the opposite in fact.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Very good post LongDraw the last two paragraphs really sum the situation up for me. Sometimes we should be happy with what we have and not meddle with a good ting.

The big thing is that we all know is that change is coming whether we need or like it. No one wants long waits so that is why guys are racking their brains as to possibly come up with alternative methods.

We would all like to see a solution where we could harvest the same number of rams, but some of us just wanna see an older group of rams. Maybe none of the points brought forth will acomplish it 100% but they arent gunna hurt or decline our herds or number of rams. No one wants to wait 10 or 15yrs to get a draw and everyone says our herd numbers are good so why not try the extended period? If guys are worried that they wont get a chance to hunt for a while be a little more picky and shoot a ram your willing to sit for 5 years over,if you want just a ram shoot it . No one here can PROOVE it will or wont work. We all know the limited draw will increase the ages but why go that drastic right off the bat.
I feel that if a guy isnt willing to wait a few extra years then they are pretty greedy. We either shoot a ram every 5 years or we shoot one on a draw that could take 10 or 15yrs. Lots of guys wait 8 or 9 years to hunt other species but guys dont want to give up the oppertunity to blast a sheep every 2 years? Does this make sense? Im sure the sheep populations are way less in Alberta than other big game we have.

[Bulletproof]

Even though I dont really think anything needs to be done my suggestion would be to adopt a modified system of the mature bc ram areas.

Leave the 4/5 rule in effect. Any hunter that shoots a ram under full curl or 8+ years old has to wait 5 years for a tag. If you meet the full curl/8+ requirement then the regular year wait is applied.

I know it is difficult to age rams but seperating them into eiter older then or younger than 8 will be a lot easier then trying to class every one by a specific year.

You could also adjust the age up or down if 8 isnt the best number.

Brett

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Bulletproof

Even though I dont really think anything needs to be done my suggestion would be to adopt a modified system of the mature bc ram areas.

Leave the 4/5 rule in effect. Any hunter that shoots a ram under full curl or 8+ years old has to wait 5 years for a tag. If you meet the full curl/8+ requirement then the regular year wait is applied.

I know it is difficult to age rams but seperating them into eiter older then or younger than 8 will be a lot easier then trying to class every one by a specific year.

You could also adjust the age up or down if 8 isnt the best number.

Brett

That is an idea.
The fact of the matter is most hunters are shooting their first and only ram and that with 5 to 7% success rate means there will never be enough hunters who care about a 5 year wait to make a difference in how many rams are killed a year.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Bulletproof

Even though I dont really think anything needs to be done my suggestion would be to adopt a modified system of the mature bc ram areas.

Leave the 4/5 rule in effect. Any hunter that shoots a ram under full curl or 8+ years old has to wait 5 years for a tag. If you meet the full curl/8+ requirement then the regular year wait is applied.

I know it is difficult to age rams but seperating them into eiter older then or younger than 8 will be a lot easier then trying to class every one by a specific year.

You could also adjust the age up or down if 8 isnt the best number.

Brett

I'd say best idea so far

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

That is an idea.
The fact of the matter is most hunters are shooting their first and only ram and that with 5 to 7% success rate means there will never be enough hunters who care about a 5 year wait to make a difference in how many rams are killed a year.

This a fact that id like to see numbers on. How many of the rams killed are by first time hunters and how many are shot by guys who already have a sheep.
Also how many guys are not happy with just a ram for their first sheep(there are some guys that just want to hunt big sheep). I really think the number of guys that shoot one ram then quit looking or hunting for another is low

And if most hunters are shooting there first and only ram wouldnt sheep hunter numbers go down? Im sure that our new sheep hunter crop isnt huge in numbers. Sheep hunters in general are a small minority of hunters already and if "MOST" guys leave after shooting one then hunter numbers have to drop.

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

This a fact that id like to see numbers on. How many of the rams killed are by first time hunters and how many are shot by guys who already have a sheep.
Also how many guys are not happy with just a ram for their first sheep(there are some guys that just want to hunt big sheep). I really think the number of guys that shoot one ram then quit looking or hunting for another is low

And if most hunters are shooting there first and only ram wouldnt sheep hunter numbers go down? Im sure that our new sheep hunter crop isnt huge in numbers. Sheep hunters in general are a small minority of hunters already and if "MOST" guys leave after shooting one then hunter numbers have to drop.

X2

I was told this before by a successful sheep hunter, "you know steve 5% of sheep hunters kill 95% of the rams"

Im going to agree with that. The guys I know that hunt sheep either know where they are and can kill them every year, or have been going for years and still dont have a clue.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by steve

or have been going for years and still dont have a clue.

Exactly just because a guy buys a sheep tag doesnt mean he will ever get a sheep. Any one can buy a deer tag and eventually shoot a deer.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I really think the number of guys that shoot one ram then quit looking or hunting for another is low

Now that is an understatement for sure......more addicting than "crack" IMO

Can't have just one

tm

[choclab]

I agree steve, but then these 5% like sheepguide take out family and friends who all kill sheep. Then complains there are not enough big sheep on the mountain. As so many have said the sheep will still die even with a 5 year wait. SG wants more and bigger sheep, but wants his kids to have the same opportunity he has now.?
I agree with many posting here be careful what you ask for. I feel the general season is ok now, maybe take outfitters out for an additional week on both ends of their season.
I also feel there are more opportunities for additional draw tags like archery tags in cadomin, possibly right on the old reclaim. This would hopefully push some rams out to huntable areas that would never leave the knee high alfalfa. As well there are lots of zones that could be regulated like 408 and if this was expanded it wouldn,'t take 20 years to draw. More tags available = less wait to draw a tag.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

Now that is an understatement for sure......more addicting than "crack" IMO

Can't have just one

tm

To some TM, but once again the math is enlightening. If we had a 7% success rate last year and that mean 140 dead sheep then 2000 hunters bought sheep tags. I'm not sure how many hunting licenses were sold last year but over 110,000 or there abouts come to mind, so it isn't hard to believe there is a substantial turn over in sheep hunters every year.
We are all guilty of looking at ourselves and our buddies and judging everyone the same. In reality we all gravitate to like minded hunting buddies and really only run into the other side in places like AO. So if you are a serious sheep guy more than likely so are your buddies. Just the math again shows us that less than 2% of hunters bought a sheep license last year, gives you an idea how big your voice is.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by choclab

I agree steve, but then these 5% like sheepguide take out family and friends who all kill sheep. Then complains there are not enough big sheep on the mountain. As so many have said the sheep will still die even with a 5 year wait. SG wants more and bigger sheep, but wants his kids to have the same opportunity he has now.?
I agree with many posting here be careful what you ask for. I feel the general season is ok now, maybe take outfitters out for an additional week on both ends of their season.
I also feel there are more opportunities for additional draw tags like archery tags in cadomin, possibly right on the old reclaim. This would hopefully push some rams out to huntable areas that would never leave the knee high alfalfa. As well there are lots of zones that could be regulated like 408 and if this was expanded it wouldn,'t take 20 years to draw. More tags available = less wait to draw a tag.

You must be a bow hunter?
Why put an archery draw on the mine and not rifle?
Opening any new zones or areas need to benifit all parties not just one group!
I dont beleive there should be any cut on archery hunters as they work hard as it is. If someone can get an archery ram in a general zone I commend them.
Have you been on the mine? A couple bowhunters walking round isnt gunna chase many rams anywhere.
Sure a couple new archery only zones or seasons is a good idea but do you really think that bowhunters should get the BEST OF THE BEST (Cadomin).
Now you wanna see a scrap put that in front of most guys that hunt sheep and see the outcome.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by choclab

I agree steve, but then these 5% like sheepguide take out family and friends who all kill sheep. Then complains there are not enough big sheep on the mountain. As so many have said the sheep will still die even with a 5 year wait. SG wants more and bigger sheep, but wants his kids to have the same opportunity he has now.?
I agree with many posting here be careful what you ask for. I feel the general season is ok now, maybe take outfitters out for an additional week on both ends of their season.
I also feel there are more opportunities for additional draw tags like archery tags in cadomin, possibly right on the old reclaim. This would hopefully push some rams out to huntable areas that would never leave the knee high alfalfa. As well there are lots of zones that could be regulated like 408 and if this was expanded it wouldn,'t take 20 years to draw. More tags available = less wait to draw a tag.

It is very much a double standard isn't it?

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So if you are a serious sheep guy more than likely so are your buddies. Just the math again shows us that less than 2% of hunters bought a sheep license last year, gives you an idea how big your voice is.

Maybe I am missing something but if 98% of hunters don't even buy a sheep tag then why should they have any interest (or a say for that matter) in how sheep are managed? Is it because one day they may want the opportunity to hunt sheep and maybe buy a tag?
IMO the 2% of hunters that buy the tags should ultimately have more say than the 98% that don't.

I guess these numbers don't include the ~140 guys that killed a sheep the year before and couldn't buy a tag but my point remains the same...

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

Maybe I am missing something but if 98% of hunters don't even buy a sheep tag then why should they have any interest (or a say for that matter) in how sheep are managed? Is it because one day they may want the opportunity to hunt sheep and maybe buy a tag?
IMO the 2% of hunters that buy the tags should ultimately have more say than the 98% that don't.

I guess these numbers don't include the ~140 guys that killed a sheep the year before and couldn't buy a tag but my point remains the same...

Oh man, your bias is showing and it is leading you away from reason. Maybe you want to step back and think about what you just said? Should we extend that sort of thinking through out the government and life? You are never going to do something new tomorrow so we don't have to listen to your opinion today? That attitude is more than a little selfish.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

To some TM, but once again the math is enlightening. If we had a 7% success rate last year and that mean 140 dead sheep then 2000 hunters bought sheep tags. I'm not sure how many hunting licenses were sold last year but over 110,000 or there abouts come to mind, so it isn't hard to believe there is a substantial turn over in sheep hunters every year.
We are all guilty of looking at ourselves and our buddies and judging everyone the same. In reality we all gravitate to like minded hunting buddies and really only run into the other side in places like AO. So if you are a serious sheep guy more than likely so are your buddies. Just the math again shows us that less than 2% of hunters bought a sheep license last year, gives you an idea how big your voice is.

What does this have to do with what we are talking about. I understand im un intelegent in your eyes but what did you just proove? That you can figure out what percentage of guys that bought sheep tags.

We all know that sheep hunters are a minority(seems to me I herd that recently).
We are having a discusion on sheep hunting so we as sheep hunters(all sheep hunters) have 100% of the voice.

[Swarovski]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Oh man, your bias is showing and it is leading you away from reason. Maybe you want to step back and think about what you just said? Should we extend that sort of thinking through out the government and life? You are never going to do something new tomorrow so we don't have to listen to your opinion today? That attitude is more than a little selfish.

Point taken, however it seems somewhat similar to election time. There are a number of people who complain about the final result but don't take the time to vote. The same sort of thing can be said about this situation. It seems everybody has an opinion which they are entitled to but if they don't buy a tag there not really to serious about hunting sheep (of course things can change).
I maybe a bit selfish however I have trouble feeling sympathy for those that don't make the effort to vote or complain about circumstance that does not affect them (and again of course things can change).

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by choclab

I agree steve, but then these 5% like sheepguide take out family and friends who all kill sheep. Then complains there are not enough big sheep on the mountain. As so many have said the sheep will still die even with a 5 year wait. SG wants more and bigger sheep, but wants his kids to have the same opportunity he has now.?
I agree with many posting here be careful what you ask for. I feel the general season is ok now, maybe take outfitters out for an additional week on both ends of their season.
.

Ive taken 4 relatives and friends that have taken rams in 20 years of hunting bighorns. So in total ive accounted for 12 bighorns in 20 years!
Most hunting I do is alone.
And yes I do want my kids to have the opertunity to hunt bighorns on a general tag and if it means they have to turn down younger rams and shoot an older mature sheep than thats fine. But I dont really wanna see them have to wait 10 - 15yrs for the oppertunity!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Oh man, your bias is showing and it is leading you away from reason. Maybe you want to step back and think about what you just said? Should we extend that sort of thinking through out the government and life? You are never going to do something new tomorrow so we don't have to listen to your opinion today? That attitude is more than a little selfish.

So what your saying is just because someone may decide to hunt sheep down the road things shouldnt be adjusted now.
Maybe we should extend it into life, do I vote on stuff thats done in your municipality or towns? I may move there one day!
No so why should guys that arent currently sheep hunters have any say in the current sheep hunting decisions?

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Swarovski

Point taken, however it seems somewhat similar to election time. There are a number of people who complain about the final result but don't take the time to vote. The same sort of thing can be said about this situation. It seems everybody has an opinion which they are entitled to but if they don't buy a tag there not really to serious about hunting sheep (of course things can change).
I maybe a bit selfish however I have trouble feeling sympathy for those that don't make the effort to vote or complain about circumstance that does not affect them (and again of course things can change).

The difference being is with an election we all get the same government whether we vote or not.
Currently 16% of hunters buy archery tags, should they dictate to the other 84% what the seasons and limits are going to be? No of course not, I could see having to explain this slowly to someone like sheepguide but you I suspect have let your passion over ride your judgment. That is something I can understand.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The difference being is with an election we all get the same government whether we vote or not.
Currently 16% of hunters buy archery tags, should they dictate to the other 84% what the seasons and limits are going to be? No of course not, I could see having to explain this slowly to someone like sheepguide but you I suspect have let your passion over ride your judgment. That is something I can understand.

Should the other 84% have any say in the archery season?

Does anything being discussed here have any bearing on any other hunting oppertunities in alberta? We are talking improvments to sheep hunting. How does that affect deer hunters?

[ishootbambi]

hey rich, where did you register your sheep that they said no pics? i registered mine in hinton and have pictures of the drill going in, the plug being pushed in and a tape measure around the thing. i aged him at 7 1/2 and the fellow in hinton agreed. he couldn't have been more friendly or accomomdating. sounds like you must have ran into a guy who was a little standoffish or maybe just having a bad day. the guy who i dealt with was terrific. luck of the draw i reckon.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Should the other 84% have any say in the archery season?

Does anything being discussed here have any bearing on any other hunting oppertunities in alberta? We are talking improvments to sheep hunting. How does that affect deer hunters?

You are right. We The sheep hunters are the ones that realy make the difference anyway not the deer hunter.Do you really think he cares what we are doing or even talking about?.No they dont.So why change anything in the general season.Why not add a draw for a november hunt in all zones and give out 1 archery tag and 1 rifle tag(full curl only).no priority just luck of the draw.after drawing that tag you cant put in for life or lets say 10 years in on that draw. So all the people that want a big ram will have a better chance.But you are not eligable for this tag unless you have bought a tag for a 5 concecutive years or have killed a ram in the past.Also If you are on your year off after killing a ram the year before on a general you are not aloud to take or help in any way of another hunter.

What do you guys think of this????