Educate me

[FishingMOM]

Okay after watching a SL video showing reporters standing around yapping some "ammo" went off in a house that was still smoldering.

Now I have been informed this doesnt happen and it was likely a can of beans.

Yet having read the following I am super confused.

Please clarify.

In his book "Gunshot Wounds" Vincent Di Maio describes various experiments where ammunition was heated in ovens. He says that .22 long rifle cartridges detonate at an average of 275F, .38 Special at 290F and 12 gauge shotgun shells at 387F. The interesting thing about these furnace experiments was that in all instances the cartridge cases ruptured, but the primers did not detonate. In fact the primers were removed from some of the ruptured cases, reloaded into other brass and fired.

When cartridges are placed in a fire he confirms that the most dangerous component of a cartridge is the brass, or fragments thereof that may cause eye injury or penetrate skin, but certainly there is no evidence that a cartridge that is not in a firearm can cause a mortal wound, either by action of the bullet or the brass/primer fragments. It is important to remember however that a chambered cartridge that detonates in a fire is just as dangerous as a cartridge that is fired under normal circumstances in a firearm.

To get a better understanding of the behaviour of free-standing ammunition in a fire, he conducted experiments with a propane torch. A total of 202 cartridges (handgun, centerfire rifle and shotgun cartridges) were used. If the heat was applied directly to the base of a shotgun shell the primer would detonate, the powder would ignite and the shell would rupture. Any pellets that emerged were traveling too slowly to be recorded on a chronograph.

In rifle and handgun cartridges where the flame was applied to the base of the cartridge the primers always detonated but the powder only ignited in half the cases and in those instances the cases did not rupture but the gas was instead vented through the primer hole.

When he heated these same handgun and rifle cartridges at the front, the powder would burn and the cases would usually rupture but with few exceptions the primers did not detonate. The velocity of expelled projectiles ranged from 58 ft/s to 123 ft/s. The only exception was the .270 cartridge where the bullet velocity was 230 ft/s. Primer velocities ranged from 180 ft/s to 830 ft/s.

As a side note he says that a revolver in a fire is especially dangerous because all the cartridges can cook off and be discharged such that there is a danger from projectiles. Only the bullet that came out of the barrel will have rifling marks and the ones that came from non-aligned chambers will have shear marks on them. Obviously if there is a question about the firing of a weapon and whether it was cooked off or fired intentionally they will look for a firing-pin impression on the primer of the suspect cartridge case.

References:

Sciuchetti G.D. Ammunition and fire. American Rifleman 144(3): 36-38, 59-60, March 1996.

Cooking-Off Cartridges. NRA Illustrated Reloading Handbook. Washington, D.C.: The National Rifle Association of America.

And of course Vincent Di Maio's excellent book "Gunshot Wounds - practical aspects of firearms, ballistics and forensic technics". My copy is the second edition, published by CRC Press, ISBN 0-8493-8163-0
This information can be found on pages 268-270.

[mtylerb]

What are you wanting to clarify?

[Pudelpointer]

Ammunition will - and does - "go off" when thrown in a fire or heated past a specific temp.

As the article you quote states, it is usually not the bullet that goes zinging out of there, it is the brass. Still would not want to get hit with one.

Whoever told you that it "couldn't happen" was likely confusing it with smokeless gun powder canisters. They won't "explode", just kind of "poof" with a big flame.

[Caper28]

High power rifle ammo will go off in a fire as was already mentioned. One of those stupid thing I have done as a kid, throw it in a fire and hide. Sounds like a .22lr going off and the bullet did go zinging, case was intact and it put the small fire we had out.

[Redfrog]

I'll weigh in here since I've had both beans explode in a fire and ammo.

Until you confine the ammo as in the action of a firearm it won't send the bullet fast enough to do damage. It works in a firearm because the burning powder produces fast expanding gas which projects the bullet out the barrel.

Think Mentos and coke. Pour the coke on the mentos on the ground and big whoop. Now restrict the mix by mixing in a bottle and it explodes out the top.

We hung a t shirt 12 inches in front of a shotgun action[no barrel] set the cartridge off and the pellets hit the t shirt and fell to the floor. Would not penetrate the shirt. There were scorch marks however.

Beans on the other hand are a whole other story.

On a hunt in B.C. top of the mountain in a foot of snow. We were tenting.

We had a fire outside and were also using a small burner in the tent to cook.
We set a can of beans on the edge of the fire to warm up.

In the tent we cooked the rest of the meal and had a couple glasses of wine. We forgot about the beans till they exploded. Of course at the sound we sat quietly for a second trying to figure out what had happened. They the "bean" hail came down on the tent. When we stopped laughing we looked in the darks for signs of the can. Nothing but beans all over the snow and the tent and the truck.

Next morning we hunted the morning and were back for reakfast about 10;30. a hunter came wandering up the road. we offered coffee and grub, but he was so interested in the beans around the area that it took a minute for him to figure out what had happened. We did find the can flat as a piece of paper. Never did find the ends.

[mtylerb]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

I'll weigh in here since I've had both beans explode in a fire and ammo.

Until you confine the ammo as in the action of a firearm it won't send the bullet fast enough to do damage. It works in a firearm because the burning powder produces fast expanding gas which projects the bullet out the barrel.

Think Mentos and coke. Pour the coke on the mentos on the ground and big whoop. Now restrict the mix by mixing in a bottle and it explodes out the top.

We hung a t shirt 12 inches in front of a shotgun action[no barrel] set the cartridge off and the pellets hit the t shirt and fell to the floor. Would not penetrate the shirt. There were scorch marks however.

Beans on the other hand are a whole other story.

On a hunt in B.C. top of the mountain in a foot of snow. We were tenting.

We had a fire outside and were also using a small burner in the tent to cook.
We set a can of beans on the edge of the fire to warm up.

In the tent we cooked the rest of the meal and had a couple glasses of wine. We forgot about the beans till they exploded. Of course at the sound we sat quietly for a second trying to figure out what had happened. They the "bean" hail came down on the tent. When we stopped laughing we looked in the darks for signs of the can. Nothing but beans all over the snow and the tent and the truck.

Next morning we hunted the morning and were back for reakfast about 10;30. a hunter came wandering up the road. we offered coffee and grub, but he was so interested in the beans around the area that it took a minute for him to figure out what had happened. We did find the can flat as a piece of paper. Never did find the ends.

On that note, though, if you have a bullet standing straight up and down on a concrete block (or something else strong enough to handle the rearward force) then the bullet could very well shoot at a decent enough speed. Not with the same force as out of a barrel, because some of the explosion will go sideways, but up nevertheless.

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Ammunition will - and does - "go off" when thrown in a fire or heated past a specific temp.

As the article you quote states, it is usually not the bullet that goes zinging out of there, it is the brass. Still would not want to get hit with one.

Whoever told you that it "couldn't happen" was likely confusing it with smokeless gun powder canisters. They won't "explode", just kind of "poof" with a big flame.

Yup, what pudel said.

[Grizzly Adams]

Do we know if it really was ammunition? Half a dozen strips of Hilti charges can do a prettty good machine gun imitation. Gotta keep the reporters on their toes.

Grizz

[greylynx]

Nice story for a liberal trained reporter who has to make a man bites dog story.

No proof was shown that is was ammuntion going off.

In the smoldering rubble of a burnt out home, even us simple minded AO people can figure out more things that will go bang than that superior man with the yellow stripe down his pants.

[DarkAisling]

Hmm. Just ordered a safe for storing my ammo today.

http://www.sears.ca/product/sentry-s...0759951-DS3410

Now I'm not sure about it. Will it become a powder keg in a house fire?

[mudbug]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

Hmm. Just ordered a safe for storing my ammo today.

http://www.sears.ca/product/sentry-s...0759951-DS3410

Now I'm not sure about it. Will it become a powder keg in a house fire?

That's too small of safe, you need more ammo than that one will hold for the impending Zombie infestation when the world end tomorrow ;o)

[DarkAisling]

Originally Posted by mudbug

That's too small of safe, you need more ammo than that one will hold for the impending Zombie infestation when the world end tomorrow ;o)

You're cute when you're cheaky. But, can you answer my question?

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

Will it become a powder keg in a house fire?

Yup it will.....the more the merrier. I wouldn't worry about it.....if the house is that hot that it lights it inside of the safe you'll either be long gone.....or long gone

You got lots of stuff in the house that will be exploding and popping all over the place if it get that bad.

At the price of ammo nowadays it might be a good idea to keep it close to a door.

tm

[BrownBear416]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

I'll weigh in here since I've had both beans explode in a fire and ammo.

Until you confine the ammo as in the action of a firearm it won't send the bullet fast enough to do damage. It works in a firearm because the burning powder produces fast expanding gas which projects the bullet out the barrel.

Think Mentos and coke. Pour the coke on the mentos on the ground and big whoop. Now restrict the mix by mixing in a bottle and it explodes out the top.

We hung a t shirt 12 inches in front of a shotgun action[no barrel] set the cartridge off and the pellets hit the t shirt and fell to the floor. Would not penetrate the shirt. There were scorch marks however.

Beans on the other hand are a whole other story.

On a hunt in B.C. top of the mountain in a foot of snow. We were tenting.

We had a fire outside and were also using a small burner in the tent to cook.
We set a can of beans on the edge of the fire to warm up.

In the tent we cooked the rest of the meal and had a couple glasses of wine. We forgot about the beans till they exploded. Of course at the sound we sat quietly for a second trying to figure out what had happened. They the "bean" hail came down on the tent. When we stopped laughing we looked in the darks for signs of the can. Nothing but beans all over the snow and the tent and the truck.

Next morning we hunted the morning and were back for reakfast about 10;30. a hunter came wandering up the road. we offered coffee and grub, but he was so interested in the beans around the area that it took a minute for him to figure out what had happened. We did find the can flat as a piece of paper. Never did find the ends.

X2 and this was my understanding as well..

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

we were set up with two wall tents some years back, we were all having dinner in one , and heard some weird noise and looked out to see , what is was. the other tent was engulfed in flames, and when the heat hit the ammo boxes the all went off, with some pretty weird zinging sounds and bangs and pops, took out the windshield in my bronco, I,m thinking if they had enough power to go through a windshield, they had enough power to cause some serious damage to a human body

[rider_pride]

When my dad had his abatour he had a fire in it. During the clean up we could visially see where the .22 bullets had gone off, and the empty cartrages. We could not see any holes from where the bullets hit.

[mudbug]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

You're cute when you're cheaky. But, can you answer my question?

Some of it depends on how long it's fire rated but yes it can be a powder keg once the fire rating is execeeded. Then again bottles in your house can become really dangerous as well, a good sealed bottle with a liquid in once it reaches it's boiling point will explode sending pieces of glass out like shrapnel. I think I'd be more worried about that than some ammo stored in a fire rated safesafe Canned food can also make for some intersting explosions as well, we've all heard about the un opened can of beans in the campfire