Important information and Actions Required

[ghglenn]

I think if you hunt in bow season (early season), then you should have to hunt with that weapon all hunting season. That would show who the bow hunters truly are and would keep the so-called "crossbow opportunists" away.

How committed are you to your bow? Enough to not be labelled an early opportunist yourself? Do you "transition" to a rifle, or are you in the stand the entire hunting season???

[Dakota369]

[QUOTE=BowhuntAB;558219]

Originally Posted by Dakota369

What a stinking pile...? Maybe you missed some this morning.

Its called let off. Let off only comes into play once the bow is drawn back and held. Try it sometime. At 60% let off if you even creep a little the string will go forward. Besides you missed my point. How is it a bow when its not being held at draw??? Its pre loaded and ready to go!

Ok...you better go wipe now.

Oh.... sorry...... I thought your point was how tough it was to use a bow because you had to stand there with 100#'s of weight on the string and try and aim........

Next you will want to restrict bow season to what you consider a bow......gonna want to remove compounds next to a compound bow season too? The bottom line is the energy that drives the projectile is realized from the actions of a BOW...... that's right I said it ..... a bow...... not a projectile fired through either pneumatic or explosive action......ergo it is a crossbow, not a crossgun no matter what you feel. Plain and simple. The mechanism that actually triggers the release of the projectile does not define what it is or what it is called.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by ghglenn

I think if you hunt in bow season (early season), then you should have to hunt with that weapon all hunting season. That would show who the bow hunters truly are and would keep the so-called "crossbow opportunists" away.

How committed are you to your bow? Enough to not be labelled an early opportunist yourself? Do you "transition" to a rifle, or are you in the stand the entire hunting season???

not sure who this question is directed at, but ill answer you. im an opportunist. i hunt early with a bow to maximize an activity that i love and thats hunting of any sort. there are a few guys who hunt with a bow exclusively, but nearly all the names in this argument use a vertical bow early until its rifle time. what you are suggesting would decrease opportunity for everyone. why would anyone want to do that. the only argument for that would be to increase trophy quality. id be ok with that in a few select zones, but certainly not province wide.

[ishootbambi]

[QUOTE=Dakota369;558247]

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

Oh.... sorry...... I thought your point was how tough it was to use a bow because you had to stand there with 100#'s of weight on the string and try and aim........

Next you will want to restrict bow season to what you consider a bow......gonna want to remove compounds next to a compound bow season too? The bottom line is the energy that drives the projectile is realized from the actions of a BOW...... that's right I said it ..... a bow...... not a projectile fired through either pneumatic or explosive action......ergo it is a crossbow, not a crossgun no matter what you feel. Plain and simple. The mechanism that actually triggers the release of the projectile does not define what it is or what it is called.

what is this crossgun ive been hearing about? i have no idea what that is.

[BowhuntAB]

[QUOTE=Dakota369;558247]

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

Oh.... sorry...... I thought your point was how tough it was to use a bow because you had to stand there with 100#'s of weight on the string and try and aim........

Next you will want to restrict bow season to what you consider a bow......gonna want to remove compounds next to a compound bow season too? The bottom line is the energy that drives the projectile is realized from the actions of a BOW...... that's right I said it ..... a bow...... not a projectile fired through either pneumatic or explosive action......ergo it is a crossbow, not a crossgun no matter what you feel. Plain and simple. The mechanism that actually triggers the release of the projectile does not define what it is or what it is called.

Holds like a gun, looks like a gun, aims like a gun, has a scope like a gun, pre loaded like a gun, has a trigger like a gun, saftey like a gun....but has limbs like a bow? Hmmm....seems more like a gun then a bow to me.

[GillieSuit]

So to put another perspective on things lets just play with some numbers and look at this argument from the harvest allocation side.

SRD just wants to harvest "x" number of animals each year. They don't care which weapon of choice we use all they want to see is "x" number of deer, elk, moose, sheep, etc etc killed.

So there are currenlty around 100 000 hunters in alberta. approximately 15 000 of them are bow hunters and approximately 85 000 are rifle hunters. I won't get into cross over scenarios that discuss those that use muzzle loaders, bows, xbows and rifles etc etc. Keeping it simple lets look at harvest allocation.

ASRD allocates 15% of the overall harvest allocation to bow hunters. The remaining 85% goes to the rifle hunters.

What does this mean. Well it means that 15 000 bow hunters are expected to harvest 15% of the available animals. and 85 000 Rifle hunters are supposed to harvest 85% of the available animals. Seems reasonable almost balanced in fact.

So we want to allow crossbows in archery only seasons (archery only zones won't change, because harvest success in the bowzones is limited by hunter access to private land not overall hunter success, of 15 000 bow hunters in alberta, only a mere 200 actually have permission to hunt the calgary bow zone) Back to my point. If we open up the archery only season to crossbows we can expect the number of archers to double or triple. So lets look at the numbers and assume that total hunter numbers will stay the same and rifle hunters will become bow hunters.

15 000 x 3 is 45 000. So now we have 45 000 bow hunters and 55 000 rifle hunters. Lets look at this from a harvest allocation perspective.

45 000 bow hunters are expected to take 15% of the harvest allocation and 55 000 rifle hunters are expected to take 85% of the harvest allocation. Not very balanced anymore is it.

The word on the street is that the rifle hunting community will not give up any of the harvest allocation so the only way control the harvest rate of 45 000 bow hunters is by limiting the access to that 15% allocation. This means pretty much every animal will go to a draw except for white tails as they seem to thrive on predation.

So this scenario kind of sucks for everyone involved. Crossbow and vertical bow hunters alike. You see currently the bow hunting seasons and zones allow a larger opportunity for tags because bow hunter success is balanced with the expected harvest allocation. The scenario I've described doesn't give anyone an advantage. It just restricts our access to the resource even more than it already is.

I think we should spend less of our time worrying about the pros and cons of crossbows vs vertical bows and look at the numbers. Harvest Allocation is what really matters. If the bow hunters increased to 45 000 and the allocation increased to 45% that would be great. The harvest success of a crossbow is only 6% better than a vertical bow according to the national average so the bow hunting tag opportunities wouldn't change a whole lot. You might see some minor tweaks here and there for draws, but nothing major.

The Rifle hunting opportunities shouldn't change all that much either assuming that the crossbow hunters and the vertical bow hunters are successfull and don't go back to being rifle hunters once the Late October and Early November Rifle seasons open up.

Anyway just something else to wrap our brains around.

I doubt this would happen as bow hunters are a minority and the rifle hunting community won't give up their harvest allocation.

Debate on my friends.

[ishootbambi]

[QUOTE=BowhuntAB;558260]

Originally Posted by Dakota369

Holds like a gun, looks like a gun, aims like a gun, has a scope like a gun, pre loaded like a gun, has a trigger like a gun, saftey like a gun....but has limbs like a bow? Hmmm....seems more like a gun then a bow to me.

and where is the gunpowder? where is the explosive gases driving the projectile? the fact is potential energy is stored in flexible limbs. release the energy and potential energy becomes kinetic. i guess by your reasoning a trigger release and a scope, and such make a vertical bow a crossgun? sorry, thats a weak argument, but again, same old opinions trying to dispute fact.

[BowhuntAB]

Originally Posted by ghglenn

I think if you hunt in bow season (early season), then you should have to hunt with that weapon all hunting season. That would show who the bow hunters truly are and would keep the so-called "crossbow opportunists" away.

How committed are you to your bow? Enough to not be labelled an early opportunist yourself? Do you "transition" to a rifle, or are you in the stand the entire hunting season???

I put the rifles away years ago Glenn. Many of us only bowhunt.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

are you hunting with it rob, or just another toy to have some fun with?

Both. I killed a doe with it once and missed another on a windy day, I just plain messed up there though. For the most part I just love target shooting with it and taught my son how to use it because that's what he wanted to start hunting with when he got old enough.

[BowhuntAB]

[QUOTE=ishootbambi;558255]

Originally Posted by Dakota369

what is this crossgun ive been hearing about? i have no idea what that is.

Well Bambi thats the tool you are so in love with. The one that you are trying so hard to make legal so you can watch your beloved Mulie population get destroyed. Its a good thing you enjoy big game hunting for Gophers because if you have your way then thats pretty much all your going to have to shoot out your way. Unless your drawn every 6-8 years for a tag. Then again you may actually get to kill a deer or two with the help of a XGUN so lobby on man!

[ishootbambi]

thats a heck of an assumption ghillie. 45000 archers out there? seems a tad high for an estimate, but ok lets go with it. as has been stated by both sides, the initial surge will be there, as will a drop off soon after. as for the guys who newly take up archery in any form, do you think they would have the same success in their first year as long time archers. i have no stats to show it, but my observation is that new guys have less success than experienced hunters. dont forget that many will not kill by choice whether they are trophy hunters holding out till the end, or do it with a gun later as they are bowhunting with their draw tag anyway. yes there will be some changes coming, but i dont see that extreme end of it.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Both. I killed a doe with it once and missed another on a windy day, I just plain messed up there though. For the most part I just love target shooting with it and taught my son how to use it because that's what he wanted to start hunting with when he got old enough.

good job dad, anything to get kids involved is a good thing. any luck getting the wife into it? wives are another largely untapped source of new hunters.

[ishootbambi]

[QUOTE=BowhuntAB;558277]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

Well Bambi thats the tool you are so in love with. The one that you are trying so hard to make legal so you can watch your beloved Mulie population get destroyed. Its a good thing you enjoy big game hunting for Gophers because if you have your way then thats pretty much all your going to have to shoot out your way. Unless your drawn every 6-8 years for a tag. Then again you may actually get to kill a deer or two with the help of a XGUN so lobby on man!

you havent been paying attention have you? there is a waaaaaay bigger threat to the mulie population that is coming fast. also, i have stated it many times....i have hunted with a crossbow and i prefer my compound. i wont be shooting anything with a crossbow, not even gophers. arrows are much cheaper than bolts and i think the vertical bow is more fun anyway.

[GillieSuit]

ishootbambi,

I agree my assumption is a little high, but I am just playing with numbers for sake of discussion. I also agree that we don't have any real stats to play with. This uncertainty in the available data makes it very hard to predict how things will change and what exactly those changes will really mean in the future. However, I still think if the crossbow in archery seasons means a shift in hunters then we should see a corresponding shift in harvest allocation. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

good job dad, anything to get kids involved is a good thing. any luck getting the wife into it? wives are another largely untapped source of new hunters.

My wife runs from flies, not much chance you'll find Mrs. M in the bush.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

All I know is I've shot hundreds of arrows out of my crossbow and I certainly wouldn't stand up here and tell somebody I could do that consistantly. In a controlled environment, maybe. But then again I sat in the bleachers a couple of years ago at the Mother of All Shoots and watched guys with their compounds make some incredibly long shots look pretty darn easy.

And all those guys you witnessed make those shots there Rob, I can guarentee shoot a min, of 2-3 hours a day , 7 days a week. Some being pro staff and have too, some are just trying to break on to the seen and get a shot at being pro staff......

Do you think the same level of dedication will come out of Xbow hunters??

How often do you shoot your Xbow Rob? Share some expirence with us, How long do you practice? and How many big game animals have you harvested.

I've been waiting to hear from someone with more than one encounter with an Xbow.

Thx

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by ghglenn

I think if you hunt in bow season (early season), then you should have to hunt with that weapon all hunting season. That would show who the bow hunters truly are and would keep the so-called "crossbow opportunists" away.

How committed are you to your bow? Enough to not be labelled an early opportunist yourself? Do you "transition" to a rifle, or are you in the stand the entire hunting season???

That would be a Beautiful Idea!! Proclaim your weapon to SRD at the begining of the season and have it be your only weapon all year!

I'm In.........Compound Vertical BOW!!!

[pottymouth]

[QUOTE=Dakota369;558247]

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

Oh.... sorry...... I thought your point was how tough it was to use a bow because you had to stand there with 100#'s of weight on the string and try and aim........

Next you will want to restrict bow season to what you consider a bow......gonna want to remove compounds next to a compound bow season too? The bottom line is the energy that drives the projectile is realized from the actions of a BOW...... that's right I said it ..... a bow...... not a projectile fired through either pneumatic or explosive action......ergo it is a crossbow, not a crossgun no matter what you feel. Plain and simple. The mechanism that actually triggers the release of the projectile does not define what it is or what it is called.

Sounds Like a Platapus...warm blooded, has a rodent body, a duck bill, swims and lays Eggs.......WHAT IS IT??

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Actually, there's a vast number of landowners and people that are also mis informed, because they believe that Bow hunters wound more game than anyone. Throw Xguns into the mix now, and our Rep ( bow hunters ) will be tarnished even more now......Most people will only see an arrow not a bolt!!!

Ive laid that comment out 2-3 times now without an official reaction from the opposition! Do I stand alone in stating that sometimes landowners deny access to bowhunters because of a bad expirence, and lack of knowledge that a bow can accomplish the same as a rifle??

Does that image, That people like whitetail Junkie portray of bow hunter sit well with all of you? ( that we can't kill anything, and wound more than we harvest)

Now ask your self can the avgerage person tell the diffrence between Xbow and Compound bow arrows.....the answer is NO.
That intial expansion surge of Xbow hunters might tarnish our public perseption people have of bowhunters....I've worked hard to have what I have as far landowners, and I won't sit and watch this get ruined by some over night hill billies!!!

I've already started to talk to my landowners about such issues!!!( I got enough pull they will listen) and urge the rest of bowhunters to do the same......maybe we will lose the battle, but we still could win the war!!

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I've worked hard to have what I have as far landowners, and I won't sit and watch this get ruined by some over night hill billies!!!

Overnight hillbilly's? A lot of those so-called "overnight hillbilly's" may have many more years experience in the field than you do pottymouth. Statements like that surely don't help your cause.

[russ]

Can't pull 40 lbs with your arms? Here's a solution!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-hegYrRtLI

BTW Mr. Miskosky - the longest shot at the Mother is 45 yds. at a dead piece of rubber.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by russ

BTW Mr. Miskosky - the longest shot at the Mother is 45 yds. at a dead piece of rubber.

Your point?

[Doodle30]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

And all those guys you witnessed make those shots there Rob, I can guarentee shoot a min, of 2-3 hours a day , 7 days a week. Some being pro staff and have too, some are just trying to break on to the seen and get a shot at being pro staff......

Do you think the same level of dedication will come out of Xbow hunters??

How often do you shoot your Xbow Rob? Share some expirence with us, How long do you practice? and How many big game animals have you harvested.

I've been waiting to hear from someone with more than one encounter with an Xbow.

Thx

Potty I think you have have to admit that many of the Verticle bow Hunters are not practicing nearly enough either.

I'm a member of an archery club and I see the same few guys there during the offseason. Sure it picks up a bit around the beginning of the bow season which suggests to me these guys are getting to the range once maybe twice before the start of the season. Now either these guys are unethical hunters or these guys can maintain their shooting ability in a couple of sessions. Plus, shooting twice a year these sessions are unlikely to last long or will the shooting be all the accurate as they extend.

I shoot about 2-3 times a week 8 months a year but that's because I enjoy it. Many guys either don't enjoy it or don't have time for such a committment.

Another point I wanted to make is it seems to me some are suggesting that a Xbow is going to attract unethical or illegal hunting. If you are an unethical or illegal hunter you could care less what you have in you had. I will not be buying a Xbow as I enjoy shooting my bow to much but if I did own a Xbow I am not more likely to shoot from the truck. We need to report and prosecute illegal hunters no matter what tool they are using.

Sorry I told you I didn't have the will to argue this anymore but this one has gone on for too long for me to hold out any longer.

Doodle

[russ]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Your point?

You're looking at the shooting skills of maybe 10% of the 350 or so people there.

[Rob Miskosky]

And that may very well be, but it sure seemed like everybody was pretty darn good. Oh, and Russ, it's Rob, not Mr. Miskosky.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

If you have never shot a bow Jamie i don't think you would be putting 6 arrows in a can at fifty yards within and hour. With a cross bow no problem!

A couple of things.
#1 Yes I used to shoot a ton. I really really liked it. And we as a group got very good. But I got married and had 2 kids. Now life doesn't allow for that type of fun. We used to Bow hunt 4-5 nights a week.

#2 To get to that level again (The Cans) I know that would take a ton of work. But to get to the point of popping them into a 6" pie plate at 50 yards I did it last summer in after 15 minutes of playing and remembering.

We used to make a game out of busting each others nocks at 30 yards.

I also can take a nube bow hunter and have him/her putting them into 6" pie plate at 30 yards in 30 minutes. And yes I did that last summer as well.
Shooting a bow is not a big deal once you get the proper technique down and with proper teaching it can be done.

Now the hunting end and shooting under field conditions is another story.

SO I am a fellow Bow hunter and target enthusiast. I am also a realist and can see through the greediness of the different mindsets.
I just know that X-bows will not hurt our sport.

Will I buy one.. Probably not, like I said my life doesn't allow for a bow right now but perhaps someday it will. And when it does, I don't want the Gov or the ABA telling me what to do in the field.

Jamie

[russ]

Rob, the thing is - sure there's guy's like myself that put 12-16 shots out of 21 in the 10 ring, the thing is I also put out some real wankers in there to that would amount to extremely bad hunting shots.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Overnight hillbilly's? A lot of those so-called "overnight hillbilly's" may have many more years experience in the field than you do pottymouth. Statements like that surely don't help your cause.

Rob that's just how I percieve the anarckey to be the first couple of years after it passes.

I have alot of years under my belt..... But I don't measure my expirence in years, but in hours, When it comes to hours I'm sure i'm in the top 5 percentile.

[BowhuntAB]

Originally Posted by Jamie

A couple of things.
#1 Yes I used to shoot a ton. I really really liked it. And we as a group got very good. But I got married and had 2 kids. Now life doesn't allow for that type of fun. We used to Bow hunt 4-5 nights a week.

#2 To get to that level again (The Cans) I know that would take a ton of work. But to get to the point of popping them into a 6" pie plate at 50 yards I did it last summer in after 15 minutes of playing and remembering.

We used to make a game out of busting each others nocks at 30 yards.

I also can take a nube bow hunter and have him/her putting them into 6" pie plate at 30 yards in 30 minutes. And yes I did that last summer as well.
Shooting a bow is not a big deal once you get the proper technique down and with proper teaching it can be done.

Now the hunting end and shooting under field conditions is another story.

SO I am a fellow Bow hunter and target enthusiast. I am also a realist and can see through the greediness of the different mindsets.
I just know that X-bows will not hurt our sport.

Will I buy one.. Probably not, like I said my life doesn't allow for a bow right now but perhaps someday it will. And when it does, I don't want the Gov or the ABA telling me what to do in the field.

Jamie

What do you think is easier to use and learn?

[russ]

Originally Posted by Jamie

A couple of things.
#1 Yes I used to shoot a ton. I really really liked it. And we as a group got very good. But I got married and had 2 kids. Now life doesn't allow for that type of fun. We used to Bow hunt 4-5 nights a week.

#2 To get to that level again (The Cans) I know that would take a ton of work. But to get to the point of popping them into a 6" pie plate at 50 yards I did it last summer in after 15 minutes of playing and remembering.

We used to make a game out of busting each others nocks at 30 yards.

I also can take a nube bow hunter and have him/her putting them into 6" pie plate at 30 yards in 30 minutes. And yes I did that last summer as well.
Shooting a bow is not a big deal once you get the proper technique down and with proper teaching it can be done.

Now the hunting end and shooting under field conditions is another story.

SO I am a fellow Bow hunter and target enthusiast. I am also a realist and can see through the greediness of the different mindsets.
I just know that X-bows will not hurt our sport.

Will I buy one.. Probably not, like I said my life doesn't allow for a bow right now but perhaps someday it will. And when it does, I don't want the Gov or the ABA telling me what to do in the field.

Jamie

Jamie, I've seen people shoot very well in the beginning only to fall apart after a few sessions. There's a name for the phenomenon I just can't recall it right off hand.