Minions ...

[TBD]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Just stating truth Bob, just stating truth from my former tradesman world.
Doesn't bother me at all.

I'm not anti-union. They have (maybe had) their place. Today, in my POV, they are just another business where the execs are getting fat off of the money 'taxed' from the unionized employees. My wife is in a union (Unifor) and they do absolutely squat for her while protecting all the useless twits that oughtta be fired. Many of those twits do absolutely nothing but play on their cell phones and complain about how tough they've got it all shift and girls like my wife who still have an old school non-entitled work ethic have to carry the load to get the work done.

I'm from that old school too - the one where you put your own boots on and walked in them all day. Non union, private sector tradespeople had to produce quality workmanship or they wouldn't be working very long, but they could go and work in the union shops .

Personally I like the freedom of being able to work under my own terms - not being told how, why, what, where and when to do something to get the job done with great quality I could be proud of. I also don't like the idea of paying dues to an organization that then uses my money to politically lobby for things I am not in agreement with - and 'pressures' me how to vote on top of it all! Folks' that do like that are kinda like minions. But I guess you like that, huh Bob.

Case in point: my Dad's business was non union. Union came and told them we had to go union or else (there was a big push to unionize in our town back then - union was out to lock up all the work). Dad and his partner said no way. We who worked for them said no way (we were all doing well). Two of our local competitors buckled under union threat and went union and advised us that now that they were union they would drive us out of business. Guess what? Three years later we and the other non-union shops were still open and thriving, but the union ones went under. One had a strike. The other couldn't adapt to the additional overhead of the benefits they had to pay. The guys who worked for them came to us and asked for work. Did I mention that we had comparable wages, private source benefits, and perks (like profit sharing and bonuses) the union wasn't offering !

I guess you don't like another experienced point of view putting a dark cloud over your union utopia - huh!

thanks for sharing, the pro union guys especially when they get BOB's age - are NOT going to change.

[ArtG]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

We got through the 08 recession with social spending, largest deficit in Canadian history.

want another socialism success story, look at Iceland.
Instead of bailing out banks, they arrested bankers and forgave countless debts held by private citizens. Their economy is doing pretty well because of it too.

I'm all for locking up the banks but you do realized they pay around 46% in TAXES!!!!

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by ArtG

I'm all for locking up the banks but you do realized they pay around 46% in TAXES!!!!

They're also owed interest on a whole lot of the money that's in circulation, and Canada's consumer debt index is at 1.63 IIRC. that's 163$ of debt for every 100$ earned. So ya, I pay ~43% tax, plus more in VATs and excise taxes. glad I'm one of those guys without debt that is keeping that index as low as it isn't.

When/if interest rates go up, sure going to be one big pop in a bunch of bubbles.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

They're also owed interest on a whole lot of the money that's in circulation, and Canada's consumer debt index is at 1.63 IIRC. that's 163$ of debt for every 100$ earned. So ya, I pay ~43% tax, plus more in VATs and excise taxes. glad I'm one of those guys without debt that is keeping that index as low as it isn't.

When/if interest rates go up, sure going to be one big pop in a bunch of bubbles.

Its not going to take a hike in interest rates. Just wait another 6ish months.

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Its not going to take a hike in interest rates. Just wait another 6ish months.

I don't even think Harper can prevent it and most certainly none of the other candidates have offered a solution either.

[EZM]

There is not going to be any significant increase in the interest rates until things stabilize. None of the parties are going to bend for the benefit of the banks at this point. Nobody is quite that stupid.

The banks are still spreading caviar on fancy crackers on the beach while the rest of us share a box of ritz and scrape peanut butter out of the jar and wait out the winter.

[Wild&Free]

Originally Posted by EZM

There is not going to be any significant increase in the interest rates until things stabilize. None of the parties are going to bend for the benefit of the banks at this point. Nobody is quite that stupid.

The banks are still spreading caviar on fancy crackers on the beach while the rest of us share a box of ritz and scrape peanut butter out of the jar and wait out the winter.

You have peanut butter AND Ritz crackers?!?

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

If someone tried that crap on any of the unionized job sites I have been on he would be down the road in a hearteat!
Our union contractors have down a tremendous amount of re-work that they took over from non union outfits on job sites in Alberta.
Not saying that all of our members are super duper tradesmen, but to imply that they are all lazy is just wrong!
Cat

I didn't say that Cat (about being lazy), and I wouldn't. There are good guys on both sides, and there are bad guys too. Problem on the union side is that it can take a lot to get rid of the bad apples, and bad apples have a way of producing more rot in the system.

I think a lot of the re-do work your guys have done has to do with a lot of other issues than quality tradesmen.

Most SMALL- BIZ shops where the owner operator is hands on with his guys will have a high work ethic and desire to see quality workmanship. That's simply because the owner-operator is usually the one doing the re-do stuff (edit - on his own dime and time) so there is a vested interest in ensuring quality workmanship is done and done right the first time.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

I didn't say that Cat (about being lazy), and I wouldn't. There are good guys on both sides, and there are bad guys too. Problem on the union side is that it can take a lot to get rid of the bad apples, and bad apples have a way of producing more rot in the system.

I think a lot of the re-do work your guys have done has to do with a lot of other issues than quality tradesmen.

Most SMALL- BIZ shops where the owner operator is hands on with his guys will have a high work ethic and desire to see quality workmanship. That's simply because the owner-operator is usually the one doing the re-do stuff (edit - on his own dime and time) so there is a vested interest in ensuring quality workmanship is done and done right the first time.

I have had lazy and useless people working for me that were both union and non union. I actually found it easier to get rid of the unionized problem children. A phone call to the GF and they were sent somewhere else, for someone else to deal with. On the other hand I spent years trying to get rid of some of our own non union.people. A lot of the problems were related to race, sex, memberships in certain social organizations , and sometimes who the person was related to.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have had lazy and useless people working for me that were both union and non union. I actually found it easier to get rid of the unionized problem children. A phone call to the GF and they were sent somewhere else, for someone else to deal with. On the other hand I spent years trying to get rid of some of our own non union.people. A lot of the problems were related to race, sex, memberships in certain social organizations , and sometimes who the person was related to.

Or the contractor simply sent them down the road!
We have no issues telling a member he has no grievance if there is none warranted, and if the worker is incompetent, lazy , or otherwise doing stuff other than putting in a decent day's work for a decent wage he is not on the job long.
What you stated about waiting for someone to pass a board amounted to laziness in my books Mistagin,, both on the part of the carpenter and the labourer- just where was he if he was supposed to be helping??!!
Of course there are those who are protected to a certain extent by the buddy system or nepotism, but we find that everywhere in life.
Cat

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Wild&Free

You have peanut butter AND Ritz crackers?!?

Ok ..... you are right ...... I lied ..... they are bargain brand Ritz - the government assures me they taste the same !!!!!

[sns2]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have had lazy and useless people working for me that were both union and non union. I actually found it easier to get rid of the unionized problem children. A phone call to the GF and they were sent somewhere else, for someone else to deal with. On the other hand I spent years trying to get rid of some of our own non union.people. A lot of the problems were related to race, sex, memberships in certain social organizations , and sometimes who the person was related to.

The REAL QUESTION is did you ever have to fire Cat's rear end down the road???

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Or the contractor simply sent them down the road!
We have no issues telling a member he has no grievance if there is none warranted, and if the worker is incompetent, lazy , or otherwise doing stuff other than putting in a decent day's work for a decent wage he is not on the job long.
What you stated about waiting for someone to pass a board amounted to laziness in my books Mistagin,, both on the part of the carpenter and the labourer- just where was he if he was supposed to be helping??!!
Of course there are those who are protected to a certain extent by the buddy system or nepotism, but we find that everywhere in life.
Cat

The carpenter in question (my BIL) got written up and reprimanded a couple of times for going and getting his own 'oversized' lumber when there were no labourers to be found. After that 4 hour wait episode (he didn't want to get 'written up" again) he quit and moved from Ontario to Edmonton.

And you are right - where was the labourer??? My BIL was told, "assisting somewhere else."

[sns2]

The problem with all this union bashing mentality is that you make sweeping generalizations that are just stupid, and likely below yourself. There are tons of guys on this site that you banter with back and forth over outdoorsmen topics, but then people get on the general discussion forum and end up alienating and offending good dudes. It just ain't worth it over political parties and how we vote. It really isn't.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

The carpenter in question (my BIL) got written up and reprimanded a couple of times for going and getting his own 'oversized' lumber when there were no labourers to be found. After that 4 hour wait episode (he didn't want to get 'written up" again) he quit and moved from Ontario to Edmonton.

And you are right - where was the labourer??? My BIL was told, "assisting somewhere else."

Anybody that "sat" four hours without showing enough initiative to find another task at which he could be productive would get run off my site!
Hey guys, check the spelling ... This thread is about MINIONS not UNIONS. I know the words sound the same, but...

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by sns2

The problem with all this union bashing mentality is that you make sweeping generalizations that are just stupid, and likely below yourself. There are tons of guys on this site that you banter with back and forth over outdoorsmen topics, but then people get on the general discussion forum and end up alienating and offending good dudes. It just ain't worth it over political parties and how we vote. It really isn't.

It is kind of silly how with the recent introduction of politics on an outdoors site has split the members into groups. Gone is the comrodery... Silly silly.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by sns2

The problem with all this union bashing mentality is that you make sweeping generalizations that are just stupid, and likely below yourself. There are tons of guys on this site that you banter with back and forth over outdoorsmen topics, but then people get on the general discussion forum and end up alienating and offending good dudes. It just ain't worth it over political parties and how we vote. It really isn't.

Mistagin and I are still good friends in the end, and notice how he said his BIL moved to Edmonton?
That's because OUR building trades know how to get it done!
Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Anybody that "sat" four hours without showing enough initiative to find another task at which he could be productive would get run off my site!
Hey guys, check the spelling ... This thread is about MINIONS not UNIONS. I know the words sound the same, but...

I didn't start it, but I sure will finish it!!
Cat

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

It is kind of silly how with the recent introduction of politics on an outdoors site has split the members into groups. Gone is the comrodery... Silly silly.

It has not really been recent..started with the anti Alison venom. But you and SNS are right about the nature of the General Forum. I suspect more of us are feeling more comfortable on other sites. I also agree with bobalong's contention that the General Section has a partisan bias with certain posters getting a pass. I recently set my ignore feature, so I won't even be reading many reactions to this post.

[Luxor]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

It has not really been recent..started with the anti Alison venom. But you and SNS are right about the nature of the General Forum. I suspect more of us are feeling more comfortable on other sites. I also agree with bobalong's contention that the General Section has a partisan bias with certain posters getting a pass. I recently set my ignore feature, so I won't even be reading many reactions to this post.

Censorship is bad

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

It is kind of silly how with the recent introduction of politics on an outdoors site has split the members into groups. Gone is the comrodery... Silly silly.

I didn't know moose could be so insightful.

There are some people who might hold grudge - but, I would like to think, most of the gang on here may disagree and sometimes it gets a little chippy - but at the end of the day the vast majority of guys will respect each other's opinions.

Even though I'm usually right and they are usually wrong. lol.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by EZM

I would like to think, most of the gang on here may disagree and sometimes it gets a little chippy - but at the end of the day the vast majority of guys will respect each other's opinions.

You know, I think we are going past that. It's just become incessant.

My opinion is that this politics crap is way, way more divisive than religion ever was before the mods banned it. Way more divisive.

And it's going to get worse too because whether we like it or not Harper's ratings aren't going up, and if this Duffy stuff starts to stick, we just may end up seeing an NDP gov't in Ottawa. I can't even imagine how bad the mudslinging will be around here should that happen.

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by sns2

You know, I think we are going past that. It's just become incessant.

My opinion is that this politics crap is way, way more divisive than religion ever was before the mods banned it. Way more divisive.

And it's going to get worse too because whether we like it or not Harper's ratings aren't going up, and if this Duffy stuff starts to stick, we just may end up seeing an NDP gov't in Ottawa. I can't even imagine how bad the mudslinging will be around here should that happen.

fire

[ForwardBias]

Originally Posted by EZM

I didn't know moose could be so insightful.

There are some people who might hold grudge - but, I would like to think, most of the gang on here may disagree and sometimes it gets a little chippy - but at the end of the day the vast majority of guys will respect each other's opinions.

Even though I'm usually right and they are usually wrong. lol.

Agreed. I may not agree with some of the opinions but would still pull the person outta the ditch.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

It has not really been recent..started with the anti Alison venom. But you and SNS are right about the nature of the General Forum. I suspect more of us are feeling more comfortable on other sites. I also agree with bobalong's contention that the General Section has a partisan bias with certain posters getting a pass. I recently set my ignore feature, so I won't even be reading many reactions to this post.

I don't know if it has got worse or not but you opened a thread you knew would be highly contentious. In your intro, you used a lot of 'literary licence' to make a point, then put the people you disagree with on ignore.

That smacks to me they are not entitled to an opinion in your estimation. I still think I can learn stuff from people I disagree with, maybe moreso than like minds. I'm an adult, I can choose to stay on the sidelines or engage....

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

It is kind of silly how with the recent introduction of politics on an outdoors site has split the members into groups. Gone is the comrodery... Silly silly.

Wow! Hard to beat this post!

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by ForwardBias

Agreed. I may not agree with some of the opinions but would still pull the person outta the ditch.

Cat

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by EZM

I didn't know moose could be so insightful.

There are some people who might hold grudge - but, I would like to think, most of the gang on here may disagree and sometimes it gets a little chippy - but at the end of the day the vast majority of guys will respect each other's opinions.

Even though I'm usually right and they are usually wrong. lol.

Wrong againlol

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by roper1

I don't know if it has got worse or not but you opened a thread you knew would be highly contentious. In your intro, you used a lot of 'literary licence' to make a point, then put the people you disagree with on ignore.

That smacks to me they are not entitled to an opinion in your estimation. I still think I can learn stuff from people I disagree with, maybe moreso than like minds. I'm an adult, I can choose to stay on the sidelines or engage....

Yep! Cowboy logic.

[raab]

Originally Posted by sns2

You know, I think we are going past that. It's just become incessant.

My opinion is that this politics crap is way, way more divisive than religion ever was before the mods banned it. Way more divisive.

And it's going to get worse too because whether we like it or not Harper's ratings aren't going up, and if this Duffy stuff starts to stick, we just may end up seeing an NDP gov't in Ottawa. I can't even imagine how bad the mudslinging will be around here should that happen.

Theres no way the NDP are getting a majority government, no matter what the polls say.