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Old 10-02-2018, 08:13 PM
Marty S Marty S is offline
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Default "Algonquin Wolf"... They need some help!

So for many years, special interest groups and like minded people decided to pretend that the coyotes in the Algonquin Park are were actually wolves. This lie has spread to such end that the govenment there is enacting legislation/protection of these so called wolves. The animals in question are actually coyotes, of which a significant percentage of their genetics is comprised of dawg DNA.

This lie has carried on for some time, to such end that enough of the c=scientific community are backing the farce and attempting to get protection for the mongrel coyote species. This has gone too far.

To the best of my knowledge, it is my understanding that scientific DNA research has proven these animals to be actual "coyotes", and not actually "wolves" however, the special interest groups that have permeated/infected/defiled the scientific process have also taken hold in government and hold key power positions, and could care less what science has to say, they are pushing forward with the pretending/pseudo-science/lie and have shut down or are going to shut down large areas to hunting and trapping to protect the aforementioned coyote gene pool.

The Ontario Fur Managers Federation has battled this for some time. In my mind, it seems that they need to sue, however, they are taking a more eloquent action and they need a few dollars to help them support their cause.

I strongly encourage trappers/individuals to support their cause financially, directly. If people can hide scientific fact and push such an agenda thru there, there is no reason why they can't push other such false agendas thru elsewhere in this country. As Alberta trappers, we need to jump into this fight and do what we can.

They have a plan in place and from reading a thread on the Canadian Trapper Forum, it sounds like as though they will be hiring a biologist and performing an independent study to further support true science and thereby strengthen their position.

Here is a post from the thread on the Canadian forum:

"...Official Statement from the Ontario Fur Managers Federation
I would like to thank Jim Gibb for starting this thread to help spread the word on a research project that we are working on to help stop the protection of the Eastern / Algonquin wolf. Also thank you to all the individuals and organizations that have contributed to this research project to date. As many of you are aware, Cossaro listed the newly named Algonquin Wolf, formally called the Eastern Wolf to threatened on the species at risk list. That is when the MNRF placed 3 new protection areas in the Province of Ontario as a temporary recovery strategy. At that time, we were opposed to the decision to put any protection areas in place until more TRUE scientific research was done to truly figure out what was on the ground and how the impacts of protecting a top Predator would have on our ecosystem and prey species. You can’t protect the top predator and expect good things to happen, and we are not buying the current research that Ontario researchers have done stating that there was a new species out there. After attending many open houses, and poking lots of holes in their research at the recovery strategy meetings they changed their position that this was not a new species and was just a hybrid derived from the Gray Wolf and the Coyote. While were doing all this at the recovery strategy meetings we were also having meetings with the MNRF Minster and explaining the problems we seen in their Science and how the Protection will affect the whole eco-system. We asked for a delay in their decision until more scientific evidence could be gathered and that is when we told them we would help by collecting DNA samples from the proposed 32000 square km protection area free of charge to see what was truly on the ground and get some true scientific research done as there was more holes in their research than swish cheese. We at the O.F.M.F have always said that we will always support the truth no matter what the results show but at this time we don’t believe that the truth is being told. It is merely a political based decision being pushed by the animal protection groups with lots of money. We were very pleased when MNRF Minister decided to hit the pause button to allow for more time for more research and posted an 18 month delay notice. That brings us to today, with less than a year away from the final decision, time is of the essence. We have gathered up lots of DNA samples and paid to have them tested but we are not Doctors of Science and now have to see what the Data shows, that is why we are hiring a Doctors of Science to take our Data and write a unbiases and impartial research paper and show us TRUE SCIENCE on what is going on in our landscape, but this is not cheap, and that is why we are asking for help to try to fund this research. If this protection goes through what hybrid species will be next? What Province will it spread to? This will truly impact our Nation. We have heard from some people that what if this research comes back the same as the rest? Well Folks, we will have to accept it as it will be the truth but I feel in my heart that there is no way it can be, as trappers and resourse users alike we all know what will happen if we protect a top Predator, we do not need a Doctor of Science degree to Know this ourselves, so True Science I am sure will also show that. If you like to Donate we would certainly appreciate it. You can send your donation to our Office
at:
ONTARIO FUR MANAGERS FEDERATION
531 SECOND LINE EAST
SAULT STE MARIE, ON P6B 4K2
PHONE: (705) 254-3338 FAX: (705) 254-3297

Or e-transter at : furmanages@gmail.com

We do not monitor this Forum on a regular basis so PLEASE direct your questions to our office and we will be happy to assist you. Thanks for your support from the O.F.M.F.

I encourage all Alberta trappers reading this thread to send these people a few bucks... $50? $100? $20? Whatever you can. Lets fight the battle there, before such a battle reaches our doorstep!


Here is the thread. If you are not a member of the forum, you will have to sign up to read it... I think!

http://www.trapper.ca/cnta/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13314
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Old 10-02-2018, 08:19 PM
Marty S Marty S is offline
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Point of interest... The South Country Trappers Association upon hearing of our fellow trappers plight, immediately donated to their cause. Perhaps you could make your local/association aware of this and also consider contributing?

Thank you for your lending your ear!
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:53 AM
tonnage tonnage is offline
 
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I was told the Alberta Trappers Association agreed to give them $2000.00 at their last board of directors meeting.
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Old 10-03-2018, 08:26 PM
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Not taking sides here - but we are mixing up common names versus taxonomy (scientific names) - so I'm confused (and curious) as to why this even an issue ..... here's my understanding .....

From a biological and classification perspective - all "coyotes" are, in fact, are "wolves".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf

There is no single purebred wild species within the genus "canis" in North America.

https://www.the-scientist.com/the-nu...t-coyote-33123


The Algonquin wolf is a hybrid of the grey wolf and common prairie wolf (coyote).

Even isolated populations of Grey (Timber) wolves have some Coyote genes, albeit less than the sub species described as Algonquin Wolf.

The term "wolf" or "coyote" is a common name, and, purely from a scientific perspective, another species under the same genus.

Any special interest group, on either side of this argument, is going to need to deal with that little "issue" if the "plan" is to use genus/species as a defining the status of the Algonquin wolf.

Last edited by EZM; 10-03-2018 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 10-07-2018, 05:47 AM
Marty S Marty S is offline
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And back on planet earth, there are wolves and there are coyotes. The Algonquin "wolf" simply put is a coyote. That is, if you acknowledge that coyotes exist. Eastern coyotes are full of dawg DNA, which makes them more domestic and less "special" rare wild animal species that needs to be protected.

Meanwhile, beware of "scientific studies" orchestrated by the environmentalist/anti-wildlife consumption movement. Always a nasty anti hunting-trapping slant on things, always an underlying agenda.
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Old 10-08-2018, 08:15 PM
trapperdodge trapperdodge is offline
 
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The Algonquin Park (AP) wolf has been studied for decades. A strong wolf lobby is involved. At one point it was suggested the AP wolf was in fact an eastern red wolf. - an extinct species. Not sure if this idea is still being promoted.
The AP wolf exists because of its location. When governments had aggressive preditor programs wolves were wiped out in many areas of the continent. With fewer wolves to kill them coyotes expanded to all the lower States and all Provinces.
For sure they crossed with whatever the remaining AP wolf population there was.
The AP wolf is not a new species. It's gene pool will continue to become increasingly coyote.
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Old 10-09-2018, 12:33 AM
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Being that I was living in Renfrew County (an effected County) ON in the 80’s when this issue came to a head with the pro Eastern Wolf (aka Algonquin Wolf), perhaps I can shed a little light on this issue.

There have been numerous scientific studies about the Eastern Wolf. It’s not as simple as stating that it’s some sort of anti-trapping conspiracy. If you’ve ever seen an Eastern Wolf you would not say that it’s just a coyote. There has been some discussion that it is a distinct, ancient wolf species however it’s generally accepted that it is a Coywolf hybrid and in the US it is classified as such. Unfortunately, scientific research has stated the percentage of coyote is only between 32.5% and 35.5% with the rest being Grey Wolf. The dominant percentage of Grey Wolf makes it about 65 lbs with longer legs and a wolf face (google search pictures of an Algonquin Wolf).

If whoever is pursuing this project intends to prove through yet another study that the Eastern Wolf is merely a coyote, I highly doubt that they will be successful. Even if they did somehow manage to prove that the Eastern Wolf is merely a coyote, why do they think that thier study would trump all others?

This study was done by a non-partisan scientific group in the US for their version of our AEP. Being that they recommend removing the protected status of the Grey Wolf, it appears to me that it is impartial (long, boring and can be confusing):

http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/7/e1501714

The government classified the Eastern Wolf as an at risk species and in an effort to protect them they banned the hunting and trapping of them in the townships (39?) on the outskirts of three parks in ON, including Algonquin Park. Because Eastern wolves are so similar to coyotes and they can be mistaken for coyotes, shooting coyotes in those townships is also banned. Other trapping in those townships is still permitted, just not wolf or coyote.

There is much more involved, and it can be complicated, but that’s about it in a nutshell. I don’t have an answer for the Trappers effected by this and I’m Sympathetic for them, but I honestly don’t think that another scientific study will do any good whatsoever. Good luck though.
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Last edited by HunterDave; 10-09-2018 at 12:58 AM.
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Old 10-09-2018, 05:17 AM
Marty S Marty S is offline
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I cannot pretend to be an expert on such a matter so... I just quote one instead. Mark Downey, from the Fur Harvesters Auction. I have a letter pulled off the Canadian Trapper Forum. There's also a newspaper article out there somewhere, also written by Downy, I'll try to find that and post that as well.



http://www.trapper.ca/cnta/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13006&p=126697&hilit=algonquin #p126697



February 8, 2018
SAR Recovery Section Species Conservation Branch
Public Input Coordination
Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry
Policy Division, Species at Risk Recovery Section, 300 Water St.
Peterborough, On, K9J-8M5

RE: EBR Registry Number 013-1813
Public Input Coordinator:

SUBJECT: Request for additional information to be considered in the recovery strategy for the Algonquin Wolf under the Endangered Species Act.

Here please find attached several articles I have written over the past 20 years on the topic of Ontario’s “Brush Wolf, Coy wolf, Eastern Wolf, “ As well I have authored articles for magazines and delivered lectures at MNR organized and sponsored meetings on this topic.
The organization I work for is supported by a membership list of 20,000+ trappers across North America that ship fur here. I have been a registered trapper for 40 years and began my life’s career in the fur business in 1981 with the Ontario Trappers Association after having graduated from Sir Sanford Fleming College of Natural Resources. Since 2001 I have been the Chief Executive Officer of the International Fur Auction in North Bay, Fur Harvesters Auction Inc.
Once again I am responding to the MNRF on the wolf/Coyote/Hybrid protection issue as I have done so most of my adult life to no avail. I personally dealt with Dr. Theberge and his wife Mary years ago when they met with me in my office claiming the wolves they were studying in Algonquin Park were a rare Red Wolf dynamic. I was a member of the Wolves of Algonquin Provincial Park Population and Habitat Viability Assessment (PHVA) conference in Dorset Feb.15-18 2000. Dr. Theberge was present at this gathering as well. At this conference I personally show cased 100 brush wolf pelts that I took from our auction house. All were bar coded with proof of origin. The pelt locations ranged from Nova Scotia across Quebec, Ontario Manitoba, Yellowknife NWT and into Maine, New York State, Michigan and Minnesota. A dozen pelts were from townships butting Algonquin Park. When laid out and displayed Dr Theberge could not identify which skins were the specie he was pushing to protect as they ALL had the same exact characteristics. Yet he succeeded in getting all abutting townships around the park protected from wolf, coyote harvesting. I had a trap line in one of the townships commandeered by this moratorium and gave it up with the log camp I built on this trap line because the government’s decision took away my ability to manage it. Twenty years later few beaver remain and dried dead ponds make up much of the landscape. This agenda continues with Brent Patterson of MNRF as his research has him successfully changing what was a hybrid Red wolf 20 years ago being studied by Theberge. It is now being claimed a new species and naming it the Algonquin Wolf”.
Meanwhile, our MNRF biologist leading the charge on protecting this Hybrid is supported and funded by Earth Rangers(Bring back the wild), World Wildlife Fund, The Friends Of Algonquin Park, Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, W. Garfield Weston Society Canada.
Princeton University in New Jersey has conducted research that has CONTRADICTORY findings to MNRF research. In fact Princeton states that Ontario Researchers biased their own findings by not looking at the whole DNA Genome which includes Dog DNA. MNRF never mentions this and takes the road of junk science to forward their agenda.
If further protection is granted this HYBRID will see a great many professional trappers lose their ability to manage their lines as I did. Beaver populations will plummet due to uncontrolled Hybrid predation. Nothing in this great country produces more value per acre of land than an ACTIVE beaver colony. As all ungulates, waterfowl, aquatics in vast numbers all depend upon and flourish because of their existence.
Further advancement of this agenda will cripple Ontario’s wildlife diversity as never before seen. This provinces trappers provide a tremendously needed and valued service and their right to earn a living will be seriously compromised by this decision. These will be professional trappers holding registered trap lines and their names on title in Queens Park for being responsible by law to manage them in accordance to MNRF game and fish act. This will have an enormous financial impact as well on all Registered and Resident trappers with each passing year as wildlife numbers fall.
Our provinces deer and moose herds will plummet to numbers never seen and they are in trouble NOW. The spring bear hunt cancelation was a testament to how bad it is to allow emotion and animal rights groups to drive a decision into law. It took over a decade for our government to see the mistake it made and bring back the spring bear hunt. I ask you, were Ontario`s moose numbers better prior to the cancelation? The Wildlife Management Units( WMU ) being looked at to further increase protection of this hybrid wolf now only offer 1 or 2 adult moose tags and deer numbers are tremendously LOW. Prior to the spring bear hunt cancelation these units issued strong numbers of adult moose tags. Canceling the spring bear hunt was a BAD decision but it still allowed this top predator to be hunted in the fall. It took years to bring about the return of Ontario`s spring bear hunt and only after moose numbers fell drastically enough to shock the public and human /bear conflicts rose to dangerous levels.
This protection strategy has this Hybrid being protected ALL year long and this is to include wolves and coyotes which are running around together free to pound down all wildlife populations they wish. Once these wild resources are depleted domestic live stock will be targeted and family pets. This is in fact happening now without this hybrid being further protected.
For over two decades we have seen this agenda being pushed forward by emotion and now bad science and it is clear the government does not care to listen to those that make their living from the bush and depend on its resources to feed their family`s.
Fur Harvesters Auction Inc is owned 50/50 by Native and Non Native trappers and it is my intention to lobby both sides aggressively setting up a war chest of funds collected through lobbying our 20,000plus members. I am confident there will be a ground swell of support on launching a legal suite against this government’s action to protect this Hybrid specie. Ontario`s trappers cannot afford to be impacted anymore by laws driven by fake science, emotion and special interest groups.
Fur Harvester Auction Inc. will be directly impacted if this comes into law and areas of protection are broadened as it will greatly impact the amount of fur bearing animals at auction. We currently sell the majority of Ontario`s production. With each passing year less beaver, mink otter and muskrat will be produced by our trappers that share ownership in this company. The outdoor community is fed up and it is clear from the great number of responses to an article I wrote May 4th 2017 in a northern news paper. In fact of the vast numbers responding 100% were in full agreement and this speaks volumes as there was not a single comment against.
I am confident that the tens of thousands of Ontario`s hunters and farmers will line up to support this cause financially once the trappers have it launched and the media releases our message.
Respectfully

Mark Downey
Chief Executive Officer
Fur Harvesters Auction Inc.




Looks like lotsa pretending going on. Left unchecked, it could happen here too with some other made up species. American Badger perhaps? American Kitt Fox?
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Old 10-09-2018, 05:30 AM
Marty S Marty S is offline
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https://www.baytoday.ca/local-news/opinion-mnrf-takes-the-road-of-junk-science-to-forward-their-agenda-605867

OPINION: MNRF takes the road of junk science to forward their agenda.
I have been deeply concerned about the direction this ministry has been travelling for some years now as laws are now being based on emotion and driven by special interest and protectionist lobby groups
May 4, 2017 10:09 AM by: BayToday Staff
wolf pack AdobeStock_28649060 2017
Wolf pack. File photo.
By Mark Downey, North Bay

Chief Executive Officer, Fur Harvesters Auction Inc

-----

Ontario`s 2017 Hunting Regulations and our Moose, Deer, Wolves, Bears and the scary direction it`s ALL heading.

I am a native Canadian being born and raised in Ontario and having made my entire living from this Province`s Rich and at one-time well-managed resources.

In my younger years growing up in Sundridge, the moose season fell on every even year and lasted a week. You bought your moose license and shot a MOOSE. There were plenty of moose and trappers harvested wolves and hunters harvested spring bears and laws were based on science and time-proven management practices. During this time the powers that be were the Ontario Lands and Forests, later changed to Ministry of Natural Resources (MNR). Recently renamed Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry. Much has changed over the past two decades within what I once considered Ontario`s flagship ministry, for without our rich resources what does Ontario have to offer?

I have been deeply concerned about the direction this ministry has been travelling for some years now as laws are now being based on emotion and driven by special interest and protectionist lobby groups.


I guess I took notice with the cancelation of our spring bear hunt a couple of decades ago. One Robert Shad and his protectionist group lobbied so hard against the Mike Harris government that it caved in and cancelled the hunt. The fallout was unspeakable and those of us that spoke out were quoted as saying “you protect a predator long enough it will lose its fear of humans and become much more than a nuisance”……The biggest predator on calf moose at the time of birth and months after is ADULT MALE BLACK BEARS. This was the only population being hunted in the spring by LAW. Well now the spring bear hunt is back and for the reasons we warned of so many years ago.

Soon after the cancelation of Ontario`s spring bear hunt 40 Townships abutting Algonquin Park in the 1990`s put a 100% moratorium on WOLF AND COYOTE harvesting. This was to be a trial pilot project and it remains in effect to this day. At the time I had a registered trapline in Boulter Township which was one of the 40 townships commandeered by the MNR and the new regulation driven by emotion and one lone private researcher saying the wolves of Algonquin Park were a separate species. To those of us like-minded outdoorsmen that make our living from the bush and feed our families, we laughed at such a notion. The DINGOS of Australia are a separate species because they live and evolved on an island as do the KIWI of New Zealand. Algonquin Park is NOT an Island and animals are free to go in and out of its fenceless boundary so, therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE a unique species of anything lives within it.

Well I gave up my trapline in Boulter Township the moment this moratorium was put in effect mid 90`s as I knew I had lost my ability to LEGALLY manage my trapline and these HYBRID wolves being now protected would wipe out my beaver population before moving on.

Now just last year this same ministry put moratoriums protecting this HYBRID and coyotes (try to tell the difference) in Killarney and Kawartha Highlands regions shutting down all harvesting of this coyote-wolf HYBRID. The most outrageous regulation was posted just a few months ago by our Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry is this Hybrid is now in fact legally named “The Algonquin Wolf”

The DNA of this predator which has existed and evolved for thousands of years is a coyote-wolf hybrid and often called coy-wolf, Brush wolf, Eastern wolf. The hybrid`s scientific name was until MNR gave it a new one remains Canis Lycaon. It is larger than “Pure” Western Coyotes. It has longer legs, a larger jaw, smaller ears and a bushier tail and red on the back of its ears. Still, the taxonomy is not simple as many biologists are debating this all over North America, as there are DOG genes also involved in various hybrids from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico. Meanwhile, our MNR biologist leading the charge on protecting this Hybrid is supported and funded by Earth Rangers (Bring back the wild), World Wildlife Fund, The Friends of Algonquin Park, Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, W. Garfield Weston Society Canada.

Princeton University in New Jersey has conducted research that has contradictory findings to the MNRF research. In fact, Princeton states that the Ontario Researchers biased their own findings by not looking at the whole DNA Genome which includes DOG DNA. MNRF never mentions this and takes the road of junk science to forward their agenda.

Biologists in Manitoba, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and our neighboring states are all calling foul on this matter as the science is questionable at best.


I am the Chief Executive Officer at Fur Harvesters Auction and have worked here since the early 80`s and I can state with confidence this newly invented HYBRID SPECIES our government has now named is not special nor is it in any danger of going the way of the dodo bird. As it is harvested in the thousands and increasing numbers from all over our region as well as Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Maine, New York State, both of these states have NO WOLVES and yet the same animal is granted export permits and shipped here by US Federal Fish and Wild Life Service for sale ever since 1947 when this auction house was built.

Keeping in mind wolves and coyotes main prey species during the winter months is moose and deer. In Oct 2009 a19-year-oldd Toronto folk singer was killed by two such animals while hiking in Cape Breton.

Well since 1991 I have had a Registered Trapline on Ni****ing`s West Arm and for years had an MNR assigned beaver quota of 225. By law, I must harvest 75% of this MNR assigned quota or run the risk of being charged and losing my line. I harvest a few wolves and coyotes each year off my line as do all professional trappers in order to properly manage our traplines. My trapline is registered to me by MNR which is located in WMU#42.

Now to my west is Killarney region and its new wolf moratorium and to the east the Algonquin moratorium and I fear our government`s future plan is to connect them putting myself and a great many others in a position of being unable to manage our traplines. During the past 25 years I have seen the moose tags in WMU#42 go from a very STRONG number to looking at the 2017 Ontario Hunting Regulations today shows WMU#42 being issued two ADULT BULL Tags and ZERO cows. The WMU#47 to the south east has 1 Bull tag and Zero Cow tags for the entire vast region.

Ontario`s Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry has been on a crusade to find out what the hell is happening to our once strong provincial wide moose population. Well we are the only jurisdiction in the world as far as I know who promotes a CALF MOOSE HARVEST and have done so for decades now. So this plays a big role in hampering recruitment. We had a 20 plus year ban on spring bear hunting which takes place while all our province`s moose are calving and the ministry’s own biologists attest to this. For 20 plus years the big male Black Bear population was free to grow in great numbers all the while pounding down yearly calf moose recruitment. Ontario went from having one staff predator control officer hired to control wolves in MNR managed deer yards all across Ontario to no deer yard management at all and implementing wolf trapping moratoriums and now taking it upon themselves to make up a new species.

What really shocks me is our government’s position on ungulate predation as it flies in the face of provinces and territories such as Alberta and NWT who are dealing with shrinking moose and caribou populations by implementing predator culling incentives.

Ontario`s resources are being managed by emotion and poor science and this ministry's track record the past 20 years is a direct result of where our moose herd is today. I hate to think about what is ahead of us the next 20 years. Ontario residents pay $55.70 for a calf moose license only then apply to the lottery adult moose draw. All this revenue goes back to the resource and as always it is those depending on the resource and utilizing the resource that are the true conservationists.

Rather than make thousands of moose hunters pay $55.70 and apply for an outrageous chance at drawing one available adult moose tag for vast WMU`s like 41, 42, 47, and so on, CLOSE THE ENTIRE SEASON AND SHUT DOWN THE MOOSE HARVEST FOR EVERYONE ….EVERYONE!!!! Allotting one or two or three tags for WMU`s is a joke and an embarrassment to those of us who care. Let this province`s trappers harvest wolves, hybrids, coyotes and let hunters continue to take a spring bear if they wish. In a few years, our MNR could pound their chest as the crusade is over and our moose herds are back. “As goes the prey goes the predator, as goes the predator goes the prey” OUR MNR HAS LOST ITS BALANCE. Ontario`s rich resources must be managed free of emotion and sketchy science studies funded by special interest groups in order to achieve the balance needed to sustain Ontario`s great diverse resources.

Mark Downey

North Bay
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Old 10-09-2018, 08:14 PM
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EZM EZM is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty S View Post
And back on planet earth, there are wolves and there are coyotes. The Algonquin "wolf" simply put is a coyote. That is, if you acknowledge that coyotes exist. Eastern coyotes are full of dawg DNA, which makes them more domestic and less "special" rare wild animal species that needs to be protected.

Meanwhile, beware of "scientific studies" orchestrated by the environmentalist/anti-wildlife consumption movement. Always a nasty anti hunting-trapping slant on things, always an underlying agenda.
Marty, I too, am sympathetic to your argument, however science is decisive and crystal clear on this matter. DNA is indisputable. Science is real.

The articles you are citing from an expert are those of a person with a special interest in this outcome. Furthermore, I could not find any indication this expert was a biologist, not could I find any scientific facts presented here describing the genetic sequencing that would provide clear evidence.

As far as your expert is concerned - It seems to be a well written compelling argument, however, holds little credibility based on what I said above.

Attacking the opinions of other contributors will only serve to destroy your support from us, who are not anti-hunting nor do we have any agenda here.

The fist waving arguments and attacks made here can be as loud, offensive as you want - BUT the peril you may face is they just serve to destroy your cause by making enemies of people who could have helped you try and understand the issue and form a strategy that is sound, credible and worth consideration by those in decision making positions ...... but if you want to stick to that script and repeat clearly flawed and grossly obvious inaccurate arguments - easily verified by anyone with even an elementary level of intelligence on this subject - fill your boots - let me know how you make out.
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Old 10-10-2018, 06:59 AM
Marty S Marty S is offline
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I must admit that I am trying to get a handle on the situation. To date my perception of the Algonquin wolf is that it is simply an over-glorified coyote. There are many special interest groups on the other side that will attempt every angle, excuse,or otherwise that they can, in order to bring end to the trapper, regularly based upon human emotion, and not science. Welcome to the modern age where emotion is regularly trumping science and kicking science into the back corner. Perhaps this is the case on this issue and the trappers are doing it?

I see these "wolves" in the fur auction annually when I go to Toronto. Looks exactly like a nice big coyote, but has been labelled and graded as a wolf, yet the hair looks the same, the size seems the same, the color as the 3XL eastern coyotes. Guys even go thru the trouble of skinning the feet out for taxidermy, yet this is not an animal that is impressive enough for any wolf taxidermy market buyer although I suppose there are people looking for complete coyotes.

I apologize for coming back a little strong, I'll blame that on my Dutch upbringing. With so many special interest groups coming after the trapper, it is easy to get oneself backed into a corner.

Please educate us as to why these canids are wolves and not coyotes?
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Old 10-10-2018, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty S View Post
I must admit that I am trying to get a handle on the situation. To date my perception of the Algonquin wolf is that it is simply an over-glorified coyote. There are many special interest groups on the other side that will attempt every angle, excuse,or otherwise that they can, in order to bring end to the trapper, regularly based upon human emotion, and not science. Welcome to the modern age where emotion is regularly trumping science and kicking science into the back corner. Perhaps this is the case on this issue and the trappers are doing it?

I see these "wolves" in the fur auction annually when I go to Toronto. Looks exactly like a nice big coyote, but has been labelled and graded as a wolf, yet the hair looks the same, the size seems the same, the color as the 3XL eastern coyotes. Guys even go thru the trouble of skinning the feet out for taxidermy, yet this is not an animal that is impressive enough for any wolf taxidermy market buyer although I suppose there are people looking for complete coyotes.

I apologize for coming back a little strong, I'll blame that on my Dutch upbringing. With so many special interest groups coming after the trapper, it is easy to get oneself backed into a corner.

Please educate us as to why these canids are wolves and not coyotes?
No worries.

I will try an explain it (and bear with me - it's somewhat generalized)

From a genetic perspective Algonquin Wolves are up to 70% "wolf" (canis lupus) most closely aligned with sub-species Gray Wolf other common names are timber or western wolf.

The grays we have out here in the west are only slightly "more pure" if you can use that as a defining characteristic to determine heritage. In many cases of these isolated populations that's in the neighborhood of only 80% (so not a huge difference really).

All canids (dogs/wolves/coyotes) have some "mutt mix" in them.

The simple reason that leads many to believe the Algonquin wolves are coyotes is based on physical appearance.

Although they have "more mutt" in them - and probably more coyote - it's not a huge difference (from a genetics perspective).

Having said that .... Things can be misleading when looking at genetics - size, coloration, or any other associative trait one might point to establish genetic heritage can be flawed.

The best example we can relate to is people from different parts of the world - just like people, certain areas of the world have different people in size, coloration, and other common physical traits.

That's overly generalized - but should be representative of the most unbiased opinion I can give you (I have zero skin in this game if you pardon the pun).
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Old 10-10-2018, 01:20 PM
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Eastern Wolf (aka Algonquin Wolf) - 32.5% to 35.5% Coyote and the rest is Grey Wolf.

Red Wolf - 76% Coyote and 24% Grey Wolf.

Eastern Coyote (A cesspool of genes and varies with regions) In the Atlantic Provinces - 62% Coyote, 14% Grey Wolf, 13% Eastern Wolf and 11% Domestic Dog.

Obviously, the most dominant DNA of a species will dictate the appearance and behavior of any animal. With so much Grey Wolf DNA in the Eastern Wolf it is more wolf like than coyote like. They even howl like wolves and people pay money to go listen to them howl in Algonquin Park.

The issue is not whether of not they should or shouldn`t be classified as a separate species. If they were confined to the Parks that argument would be moot. Unfortunately, the Eastern Wolves routinely leave the invisible borders of the parks and enter the townships that border them.

The issue is that the government expanded the area around the parks to the townships bordering the parks and banned the hunting and trapping of coyotes in them in order to protect the Eastern Wolves. Obviously, that was a bitter pill to swallow for not only Trappers and hunters, but also for livestock owners in those townships. SSS is at work with many residents.

I sympathize with everyone in the townships effected by the expansion of the protected area outside of the Parks and I support them in getting that quashed. Protect the Eastern Wolf within the boundaries of the parks, fine. If they leave the confines of the park then they should be fair game. For me there's no doubt in my mind that they aren't just a coyote though.

If anyone thinks that further DNA testing of the Eastern Wolf is going to prove that these animals are merely coyotes they`re howling up the wrong tree. IMO what they should be focusing their energy on is fighting the reasons for expanding the protected area into the townships. THAT`S where they might be able to make headway but I`m sure that they are already fighting that battle.

Marty, although I admire your desire to help ON Trappers with this issue, like I stated, it is complex. It`s not as easy as lighting your hair on fire and declaring that it`s an anti-trapping conspiracy that will be the catalyst that effects trapping everywhere Canada.

Is this a Wolf or a Coyote?

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Old 10-10-2018, 10:09 PM
Marty S Marty S is offline
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I dunno Dave, I think it looks like a DAWG!

Just kidding. Can you prove the photo is authentic?

Again

So anyways, I think I am still going to send these people some money to study this further. I still have serious trust issues with the biological community after the Stennhouse business in AB with the grizzlies!
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Old 10-10-2018, 11:52 PM
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I made a conscious effort to post a picture of an Algonquin wolf from a credible source so I selected the picture that Mark Downey used in his opinion piece that you posted in post #9.

https://saultonline.com/2017/05/opin...s-all-heading/

If it makes you feel good to send them money to support another study then I think that you ought to do it. I would have thought that if people in the effected areas thought that it may work, between the Trappers, livestock owners and moose/deer hunters, $20K would be pretty easy to raise. I know that your heart is in the right place though.
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Old 10-11-2018, 04:54 AM
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Not splitting hairs here as in percentages of this and that but I would whack it and call it a wolf.....nice mount!
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Old 10-11-2018, 06:55 AM
Marty S Marty S is offline
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I was kidding twice in that post dave. Sorry

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Old 10-11-2018, 01:44 PM
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Looks like a $60 Coyote to me. Tough bugger to skin too.
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  #19  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:34 PM
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Default News article on coyote attack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7_-_0-1yy0

I recall when this unfortunate attack happened in Cape Breton. I thought the 5th Estate had an article on it, but couldn't find it. This was a clip from CTV. It was a very unfortunate situation, but certainly involved pack tendencies that we don't see as much out west.
I can only imagine that its a tricky political situation. On one side you have the "wolf lovers" that pay money in Yellowstone to hear the howl. On the other side we are dealing with some serious ungulate declines in localized areas due to coyote/wolf predation.
I just hope the biologists due their job aside from political and emotional influences. The general public do not see the entirety of god awful videos on youtube of coyote/wolf predation in action. If they did it may sway opinion.

In the meantime, I'm looking forward to a great trapping season that includes taking a few of both predators out of the managed ecosystem.
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