Worldviews

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

Again no one is putting any ethics upon you, there is a choices before you. Did you not already make it? And in your reference to religion, you might want to be more specific as to what religion you are referring to because there are many beliefs that form a religion.

The information that now surrounds you is inescapable and will be so until the end of time. Would you wish to exist in a vacume with only one-way of thinking, would that bring you peace?

linking stem cell research to something dying is rediculous, stem cell research comes from aborted fetuses between week 5 and 9, are you telling me that the women got pregnant on purpose just so they could have an abortion between week 5 and 9 so they could donate stem cells? that argument is akin to people that live to be 70 and donate their bodies to science to do research upon, sure there were abortions and that's unfortunate but that doesn't mean that we can't get information from it to help save others in the future? im sure your view would change if it effected your children, and im sure you would regret your position if your child/grandchild died from something that could have been cured by stem cell research but instead of trusting medical science you went with a rediculous argument because your priest or whatever told you to go with.

the bible was written by man, it holds no more proof of anything that harry potter does that was written by a woman,it's mind control for weak minded people, and if you truly believe in a talking snake, and a talking buring bush I question your intelegence.

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

linking stem cell research to something dying is rediculous, stem cell research comes from aborted fetuses between week 5 and 9, are you telling me that the women got pregnant on purpose just so they could have an abortion between week 5 and 9 so they could donate stem cells? that argument is akin to people that live to be 70 and donate their bodies to science to do research upon, sure there were abortions and that's unfortunate but that doesn't mean that we can't get information from it to help save others in the future? im sure your view would change if it effected your children, and im sure you would regret your position if your child/grandchild died from something that could have been cured by stem cell research but instead of trusting medical science you went with a rediculous argument because your priest or whatever told you to go with.

the bible was written by man, it holds no more proof of anything that harry potter does that was written by a woman,it's mind control for weak minded people, and if you truly believe in a talking snake, and a talking buring bush I question your intelegence.

At what point does life begin? How many fetuses are intentionally aborted for stem cell research? If the fetus was not aborted intentional, I do not see a problem. Nor do I see a problem with using cadavers from which to learn, as long as they treat the dead with respect.

And no I would not regret it if my child or grandchild died from something that could have been cured by stem cell research because I do not think in what ifs. I work with what is. If a time like that ever comes, I will trust in God to lead me in my decision. I don't limit Him in His knowledge or power and ability. And who said I have a priest, although I have a High Priest who is Christ. So many assumptions, and suppositions.

Believe as you will, afterall you have been given free choice, it is a gift...use it wisely.

[30Cal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE



No other Man has as many songs, literature, paintings, and disciples following Him. How can this be possible if it were a myth? Easy answer SPIRIT ... they that ask will receive.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE



No other Man has had so many songs, literature, paintings, and disciples following Him. How can this be possible if it were a myth? Easy answer SPIRIT ... they that ask will receive.

santa clause has alot of songs,followers,movies dedicated to him.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

santa clause has alot of songs,followers,movies dedicated to him.

More fail. Not really here to argue the validity of other beliefs or faiths; but to give mine credence. But since you needed to know:http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/origin-of-santa/.

Ok, so technically not Santa, but you get the idea. Evidently the Bishop Nicholas was a real person.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqTFNfeDnE



No other Man has as many songs, literature, paintings, and disciples following Him. How can this be possible if it were a myth? Easy answer SPIRIT ... they that ask will receive.

Yeah, pretty much. I can think of a number of millions of kids that believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. At some point they realize, "Hey, it's a story, a nice story, but just a story", and then perpetuate that myth to their kids.

No harm done in any case.

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by avb3

Yeah, pretty much. I can think of a number of millions of kids that believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. At some point they realize, "Hey, it's a story, a nice story, but just a story", and then perpetuate that myth to their kids.

No harm done in any case.

I completely agree with you, I guess that's why it doesn't remain for eternity, or over the lifetime of a person.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

At what point does life begin? How many fetuses are intentionally aborted for stem cell research? If the fetus was not aborted intentional, I do not see a problem. Nor do I see a problem with using cadavers from which to learn, as long as they treat the dead with respect.

And no I would not regret it if my child or grandchild died from something that could have been cured by stem cell research because I do not think in what ifs. I work with what is. If a time like that ever comes, I will trust in God to lead me in my decision. I don't limit Him in His knowledge or power and ability. And who said I have a priest, although I have a High Priest who is Christ. So many assumptions, and suppositions.

Believe as you will, afterall you have been given free choice, it is a gift...use it wisely.

are you saying fetuses are intentionally aborted for stem cell research?

thinking like yours is what has held us back as a species, religious superstition for not doing things that can help people, pigs were killed for a long time for insulin before scientists invented synthetic insulin, by your logic diabetics shouldn't have taken insulin and therfore died themselves because another form of life had to die for them to get it.same with organ donation should your children not accept a new kidney if they need it because something had to die for you to get it?

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

are you saying fetuses are intentionally aborted for stem cell research?

thinking like yours is what has held us back as a species, religious superstition for not doing things that can help people, pigs were killed for a long time for insulin before scientists invented synthetic insulin, by your logic diabetics shouldn't have taken insulin and therfore died themselves because another form of life had to die for them to get it.same with organ donation should your children not accept a new kidney if they need it because something had to die for you to get it?

No where have I implied what you are stating. Your accusations are unfounded. Read carefully what I have written please. I said using cadavers was acceptable, and did not say anything about organ transplants or insulin not being acceptable. In addition, did I not say fetuses aborted by natural cause were not acceptable. However, if they were being aborted for the sake that someone wanted to kill their child, then I would question if they were acceptable.

I happen to administer insulin on a regular basis in my present profession, and work with transplants with no difficulty. Again accusation, suppositions, and ramblings to try and prove what?

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

No where have I implied, what you are stating. Your accusations are unfounded. Read carefully what I have written please. I said using cadavers was acceptable, and did not say anything about organ transplants or insulin, not being acceptable. In addition, did I not say fetuses aborted by natural cause, not for the sake that someone wanted to kill their child was acceptable. I happen to administer insulin on a regular basis in my present professional position, and work with transplants with no difficult. Again accusation, suppositions, and ramblings to try a prove what?

im trying to prove how someone's religion is holding the rest of us back as a species, it's politicizing a small issue into a political point by the right wing extremists, what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives? and that's not even my problem if you feel like that fine do whatever you want, my problem is when you stop it for me because of your side of the story is my problem.

[30Cal]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

im trying to prove how someone's religion is holding the rest of us back as a species, it's politicizing a small issue into a political point by the right wing extremists, what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives? and that's not even my problem if you feel like that fine do whatever you want, my problem is when you stop it for me because of your side of the story is my problem.

Am I holding you back? Are you not given free will and choice? Then use it, but be prepared to deal with the consequences if you do not use it wisely. And as said before does saving the flesh, save ones life? Maybe according to your definition, but not all of us want to buy what your trying to sell. Are you willing to try and steal from us our free choice or will? To appease your own desires? If so you would likely function in a country were there is a dictatorship.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by 30Cal

Am I holding you back? Are you not given free will and choice? Then use it, but be prepared to deal with the consequences if you do not use it wisely.

who are you to tell me what's right and wrong? I thought only god could judge me?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

im trying to prove how someone's religion is holding the rest of us back as a species, it's politicizing a small issue into a political point by the right wing extremists, what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives? and that's not even my problem if you feel like that fine do whatever you want, my problem is when you stop it for me because of your side of the story is my problem.

Eastcoast, you and I have been on the same side on most points of this issue, but there are a few things in this post we are not.

Some have considered me right of Attila the Hun, and you already know I am not even remotely fundamentalist. It's not a great idea to equate conservative leanings with religious thought, and I am disgusted that especially in the U.S. that the fundamentalists have hijacked the conservative political agenda.

I am very, very mixed on the whole abortion issue. From my perspective, there are very few reasons to have one; rape and incest are certainly two, and the life of the mother being endangered. I do think life begins at conception, and having a daughter who saw the ultrasound and then miscarried, I can not see how anyone can't say that it is not a human being in the womb. Seeing the little thumbs and limbs at an early stage certainly supports that viewpoint

Others may have a different point of view.

Stem cell research, as far as I am aware, does not require an aborted fetus. My understanding is that umbilical cord stem cells can be used. If I am wrong in this, please someone correct me.

None of this is connected with thinking a 2000 year old book of stories is the meaning of all life. That still doesn't make sense to me. After all, it is in the believe in science that has allowed parents to view their fetuses in the womb, not the magical believe in something occult.

[30Cal]

Harvesting the Unborn

http://www.str.org/site/DocServer/harvest.pdf?docID=150

I would think the intent is there, would you agree?

I also recall that there was a Bill that they were trying to pass that many people felt would eventually lead in the direction of embryo harvesting. It's difficult to know what the governments are actually doing or have approved at this time. If you stumble across any other good reads let me know.

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by avb3

Eastcoast, you and I have been on the same side on most points of this issue, but there are a few things in this post we are not.

Some have considered me right of Attila the Hun, and you already know I am not even remotely fundamentalist. It's not a great idea to equate conservative leanings with religious thought, and I am disgusted that especially in the U.S. that the fundamentalists have hijacked the conservative political agenda.

I am very, very mixed on the whole abortion issue. From my perspective, there are very few reasons to have one; rape and incest are certainly two, and the life of the mother being endangered. I do think life begins at conception, and having a daughter who saw the ultrasound and then miscarried, I can not see how anyone can't say that it is not a human being in the womb. Seeing the little thumbs and limbs at an early stage certainly supports that viewpoint

Others may have a different point of view.

Stem cell research, as far as I am aware, does not require an aborted fetus. My understanding is that umbilical cord stem cells can be used. If I am wrong in this, please someone correct me.

None of this is connected with thinking a 2000 year old book of stories is the meaning of all life. That still doesn't make sense to me. After all, it is in the believe in science that has allowed parents to view their fetuses in the womb, not the magical believe in something occult.

I come from the liberatarion thought side of it, when medical science has to change somthing they do because it upsets the religious right it's a bad thing, the church should have no say on what happens in a research lab,they changed stem cell research from fetuses to umbilical cords to please the extremists, what if they don't find anything in embilical cords and the cures are in the fetus? we don't know but I don't pretend to know more than somebody else because of a religious belief I have.

as far as abortion goes I am not really mixed up at all I support it, all babies should be wanted and loved I see the personal dilema that women are in but it's their body to do with as they wish, the government doies not own their body no more than they own yours or mine, and if these religious people really wanted to save fetuses they would start adopting more and let gays do the same, to me it's about control over others and telling them how to live.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

im trying to prove how someone's religion is holding the rest of us back as a species, it's politicizing a small issue into a political point by the right wing extremists, what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives? and that's not even my problem if you feel like that fine do whatever you want, my problem is when you stop it for me because of your side of the story is my problem.

Hey eastcoast, let's play the 'what if' game scenario a little further: You say, "what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives?" Let's also look at it this way: what if the cure for cancer really was in one of those fetuses - but it would have required that fetus to be born, grow up, study and become a research scientist who discovers a cure for cancer? But that fetus was aborted, killed, and that ended that chance before it even had a living chance. And now millions of people had to suffer with cancer and millions of lives that person could have saved are lost?

Another 'what if' scenario: if I understand it correctly, in the theory of evolution for one thing to become something else, it requires a process wherein something triggers a change. If that process is random and not orchestrated (for it to be orchestrated would require an intelligent 'orchistrator' - and we don't want to go there because that might lead to calling that orchistrator "god"), then suppose that trigger change for the evolutionary advancement of the human race just happens to be in a particular fetus that is conceived one day ------ but fetus' mom doesn't want the fetus. She doesn't want to be pregnant. It was an 'accident'. So she aborts the fetus. No harm done - right? Except that now that evolutionary trigger is gone! And the evolutionary advancement of the human race stalls, or worse, begins to regress leading to the extinction of our species.
Isn't that also part of the theory of evolution - that when evolutionary advancement stops a species begins a journey to eventual extinction?

[eastcoast]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Hey eastcoast, let's play the 'what if' game scenario a little further: You say, "what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives?" Let's also look at it this way: what if the cure for cancer really was in one of those fetuses - but it would have required that fetus to be born, grow up, study and become a research scientist who discovers a cure for cancer? But that fetus was aborted, killed, and that ended that chance before it even had a living chance. And now millions of people had to suffer with cancer and millions of lives that person could have saved are lost?

Another 'what if' scenario: if I understand it correctly, in the theory of evolution for one thing to become something else, it requires a process wherein something triggers a change. If that process is random and not orchestrated (for it to be orchestrated would require an intelligent 'orchistrator' - and we don't want to go there because that might lead to calling that orchistrator "god"), then suppose that trigger change for the evolutionary advancement of the human race just happens to be in a particular fetus that is conceived one day ------ but fetus' mom doesn't want the fetus. She doesn't want to be pregnant. It was an 'accident'. So she aborts the fetus. No harm done - right? Except that now that evolutionary trigger is gone! And the evolutionary advancement of the human race stalls, or worse, begins to regress leading to the extinction of our species.
Isn't that also part of the theory of evolution - that when evolutionary advancement stops a species begins a journey to eventual extinction?

your what if doesn't make and sense, whatif a woman had an abortion for whatever reason or this futus was a test tube baby and the doctors aborted it and flushed it down the toilet and there was cures they could have found in it?, you are getting it wrong the fetuses are being aborted regardless if they get to research stem cells or not so what's the hysteria about?

you do realize that lots of fetuses are miscarried everyday right? lots of women are pregnant and don't even know it, think their period is a few days late and then they miscary, your argument is rediculous it's a strawman argument at best, let scientists help us without interference from religious fairy tails like the sanctity of life.

[jryley]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

Hey eastcoast, let's play the 'what if' game scenario a little further: You say, "what if they find a cure for cancer in stem cells? would the death of a few fetuses be worth saving millions of lives?" Let's also look at it this way: what if the cure for cancer really was in one of those fetuses - but it would have required that fetus to be born, grow up, study and become a research scientist who discovers a cure for cancer? But that fetus was aborted, killed, and that ended that chance before it even had a living chance. And now millions of people had to suffer with cancer and millions of lives that person could have saved are lost?

Another 'what if' scenario: if I understand it correctly, in the theory of evolution for one thing to become something else, it requires a process wherein something triggers a change. If that process is random and not orchestrated (for it to be orchestrated would require an intelligent 'orchistrator' - and we don't want to go there because that might lead to calling that orchistrator "god"), then suppose that trigger change for the evolutionary advancement of the human race just happens to be in a particular fetus that is conceived one day ------ but fetus' mom doesn't want the fetus. She doesn't want to be pregnant. It was an 'accident'. So she aborts the fetus. No harm done - right? Except that now that evolutionary trigger is gone! And the evolutionary advancement of the human race stalls, or worse, begins to regress leading to the extinction of our species.
Isn't that also part of the theory of evolution - that when evolutionary advancement stops a species begins a journey to eventual extinction?

lol this entire statement....is the biggest pile of you know what ive ever read.

Making claims that abortions could in theory, add to the demise of the human race, lol, is the exact garbage that paints every religious group as a cult. You let your own brains be poisoned by what is frankly, 100% unthruths, and you continue the cycle by spitting an spewing lies to others. It just makes me laugh at the "follower" mentality you prove to show.