Outfitter Illegally Sold Bighorn Sheep Permits to an American?

[greylynx]

What is most disgusting is that this is a civil case over Alberta property.

Nobody goes to gaol.

This case involves property that Albertans own. What is even more important is the legal precendent that will be set in the judges decision.
The judge's decision could turn out to be against us Albertans.
The decision could come out that us Albertans do not own our wildlife. Our wildlife is up for bidding just like cattle at the stockyard.
Then this legal precedent can be applied to future cases.

Where is Allison Redford?

Where are the save bambi freaks?

Where is the Wildrose? Hiding in closet too scared to be bitten by the media?

Redford could care less. She wants to give Alberta to everybody.

You voted her in.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by greylynx

What is most disgusting is that this is a civil case over Alberta property.

Nobody goes to gaol.

This case involves property that Albertans own. What is even more important is the legal precendant that will be set in the judges decsion.
The judge's decision could turn out to be an OMG for us Albertans.
The decision could come out that us Albertans do not own our wildlife. Our wildlife is up for bidding just like cattle at the stockyard.

Where is Allison Redford?

Where are the save bambi freaks?

Where is the Wildrose? Hiding in closet too scared to be bitten by the media?

Redford could care less. She wants to give Alberta to everybody.

You voted her in.

to use a term that I think is going to get awfully old over the next 3+ years.....I didn't vote for her....and I won't be the only one using it....

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by greylynx

The decision could come out that us Albertans do not own our wildlife. Our wildlife is up for bidding just like cattle at the stockyard.

So tell me something that we dont already know.
Alberta is just a few years away from having the same access/hunting problems as the southern US. All because someone is always willing to pay more than the next guy for a tag or access. Outfitters & non residents are the biggest threats to hunting as we used to know it. Its sad.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

So tell me something that we dont already know.
Alberta is just a few years away from having the same access/hunting problems as the southern US. All because someone is always willing to pay more than the next guy for a tag or access. Outfitters & non residents are the biggest threats to hunting as we used to know it. Its sad.

Well said....

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by avb3

I have no problem with the Minister's hunt. It's one tag, and most of the money goes to enhance wildlife here in Alberta. Albertan's can buy a raffle ticket for the same out of season opportunity.

Neither do I. I was pointing out there's big money mixed in this.

Now, getting APOS to cancel outfitters allocations when needed is a band wagon I can jump on to.

Seems to me like expecting the pyromanic society to set fire safety regs.

I think I have a better idea. Cancel APOS.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by huntin

It wasn't sold to the county and it wasn't a lump sum get your facts straight if you want to run a guy down

Fair comment. What he got for some land is his own business. If he got a high price - good for him. I'd do the same.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

So tell me something that we dont already know.
Alberta is just a few years away from having the same access/hunting problems as the southern US. All because someone is always willing to pay more than the next guy for a tag or access. Outfitters & non residents are the biggest threats to hunting as we used to know it. Its sad.

every bit as disturbing is the RESIDENTS who are quite willing to do the same. been quite a few threads recently with members of this site saying they would be quite willing to pay. many more have but are keeping a little more quiet about it. i really think of all the things threatening hunting as we know it, paid access is number one on the list.

as for this case it looks from the article that some pretty shady sheet has gone down. i have no sympathy for either party at the moment. i hope we get more details.

[walking buffalo]

More strings to the web.

Anyone know which outfitter is being referred to here?

"the plaintiff (Edit: Bruce Morgan) bought the hunting permits from another outfitter in 2000."




http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/06/19...ng-permit-flap

TV’s Mantracker said he stopped paying a U.S. hunter fees for Bighorn sheep permits when the American breached their deal by shopping for another outfitter.

Chad Savage Lenz told a Calgary court on Tuesday he believes Bruce Morgan breached their contract when he transferred the hunting permits to a second Alberta outfitter without his knowledge.

Lenz said since only an Albertan could legally possess the permits — which Morgan bought the rights to for $105,000 — transferring them on a temporary basis wasn’t allowed.

“He didn’t consult the legal holder of the tags to see what the situation was,” Lenz testified of his belief they were in his rightful possession.

Morgan, of Anchorage, Alaska, is suing Caroline resident Lenz over the permits, claiming breach of trust and breach of contract.

Lenz, who has leased the permits to out-of-province hunters, mostly Americans, for the past four years, is countersuing, claiming losses when they were transferred from his possession in 2007.

Under cross-examination by Morgan’s lawyer, Colin Roberts, Lenz conceded the plaintiff bought the hunting permits from another outfitter in 2000.

But Lenz said despite purchasing them, the U.S. citizen required an Alberta Class S hunting outfitter to handle them for him.

“Mr. Morgan has been told since 2000 that he could not legally hold these permits,” Lenz said.

Lenz also said he’d be willing to abide by a purchasing clause in his original agreement with Morgan to pay $50,000 each for the tags, which permit the holders to bring in Bighorn sheep hunters during the fall season.

He conceded to Roberts the two permits probably have a current value of $200,000.

Justice Bryan Mahoney will hand down a ruling on Wednesday.

[Albertadiver]

Originally Posted by hal53

Well said....

X2

[huntin]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

More strings to the web.

Anyone know which outfitter is being referred to here?

"the plaintiff (Edit: Bruce Morgan) bought the hunting permits from another outfitter in 2000."




http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/06/19...ng-permit-flap

Yes I do know and it has already been posted by another member.

[brownbomber]

to me it boils down to all the parties involved are violating the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law. does anybody know how many resident sheep tags are available and how many outfitter sheep tags there are? what would the spinoff revenue be for non resident sheep hunting? i know the bear and deer, birds etc would be quite significant because there is so much of it.
is it worth it to the people of the province to be selling our resources for what we get back from it? other than what the outfitters make on it i guess. but hey they gotta eat to, but on public land should not have any precedence over residents, private land well that's up to a landowner.

[Rocky7]

Both of these outfitters were operating on the basis that they were fronting for the American owner of the guaranteed right to hunt Alberta Bighorns year in, year out, with no draw, and no doubt in one of the best areas (i.e., permits).

Therefore, both of these outfitters assisted in dodging Alberta law, as recited on the APOS website itself:


A. Outfitter-Guide Permits

The requirements of the Wildlife Act Regulation to hold an Outfitter-Guide Permit in Alberta are listed in Sections 56, 57, 58, and 59.

Classification of outfitter-guide permits:

An Outfitter-Guide permit is subdivided into Class S, Class T and Bird Game outfitter-guide permits.

AR 143/97 s56;174/2000

Outfitter-Guide permits – eligibility:

57(1) Subject to this section, a person is eligible to obtain or hold an outfitter‑guide (big game) permit if and only if that person
(a) is an individual who is an adult resident or non‑resident who, in the case of a non‑resident, is a Canadian citizen or has been admitted to permanent residence in Canada,....

http://www.apos.ab.ca/about-apos/becoming-an-outfitter


Then, you'll see APOS Code of Ethics:

Members of the Alberta Professional Outfitters Society of Alberta subscribe to a high standard of professional conduct and ethics.....

1. A member, or anyone employed by a member, shall not breach, encourage or condone any violation of the Alberta Wildlife Act and regulations.

http://www.apos.ab.ca/images/stories...ics%202008.pdf

What a crock!

Generally, the source of a stink can be understood if you follow the money. I want to know how much money APOS donated to the PC Party over the last 3-5 election cycles. Anybody know how to get that information?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

...........
Generally, the source of a stink can be understood if you follow the money. I want to know how much money APOS donated to the PC Party over the last 3-5 election cycles. Anybody know how to get that information?

Good post.

I would be surprised if APOS donated any money, as they operate under the same auspices as ACA does. They would be crazy to donate to any party as a DAO.

Individuals, that is a different thing. You can check here going back to 2004.

[whitetail Junkie]

There's a simple solution to this disgusting problem....you get rid of all the outfitting and non resident canadians being allowed to hunt in alberta.Except for whitetaildeer and black bear of coarse.... but just in the northern green zone's for yankee doodle.

Problem solved!!!

[MountainTi]

Owner would be classified as whomevers name is on the permit. Wanna bet it is a Canadians name on there? I don't care who borrowed the money to the Canadian to buy the permits, they are still owned by a Canadian. Maybe the lender does buy the hunts on a yearly basis for cheap, nothing illegal about that. Pretty simple, not sure how some can't figure that out.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

There's a simple solution to this disgusting problem....you get rid of all the outfitting and non resident canadians being allowed to hunt in alberta.Except for whitetaildeer and black bear of coarse.... but just in the northern green zone's for yankee doodle.

Problem solved!!!

Soooo... that would mean you never want to hunt, oh, say in BC for goats or grizzly, the Yukon or Alaska?

Or Saskatchewan? Or Africa?

I mean, if it is fair for us to ban ALL non-residents, gosh, it should be fair for those other jurisdictions, doncha think?

The problem is not the non-resident or alien hunting here, the problem is that APOS won't get rid of the bad actors in their organization.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by avb3

Soooo... that would mean you never want to hunt, oh, say in BC for goats or grizzly, the Yukon or Alaska?

Or Saskatchewan? Or Africa?

I mean, if it is fair for us to ban ALL non-residents, gosh, it should be fair for those other jurisdictions, doncha think?

The problem is not the non-resident or alien hunting here, the problem is that APOS won't get rid of the bad actors in their organization.

yep. The hypocrisy shown here is rather astounding at times

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by avb3

Soooo... that would mean you never want to hunt, oh, say in BC for goats or grizzly, the Yukon or Alaska?

Or Saskatchewan? Or Africa?

I mean, if it is fair for us to ban ALL non-residents, gosh, it should be fair for those other jurisdictions, doncha think?

The problem is not the non-resident or alien hunting here, the problem is that APOS won't get rid of the bad actors in their organization.

No the problem is that non residents & (Apos has outfitters) that are allowed to hunt species of animals in Alberta that only Residents should be allowed to hunt.

Unlike myself, The majority of hunter's in alberta only hunt there entire life inside our province.

In my point of view,we live in a democratic society and non resident hunting\Outfitter allocation should be put to vote,just like the cross bow issue last year.Anyone who got a wildlife certificate gets to vote.So we can see what the majority of the people want!

In my opinion I do believe in shareing some resources like black black and Whitetail deer only....Province wide for canadians,americans can stay in the forestry up north.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by avb3

Soooo... that would mean you never want to hunt, oh, say in BC for goats or grizzly, the Yukon or Alaska?

Or Saskatchewan? Or Africa?

I mean, if it is fair for us to ban ALL non-residents, gosh, it should be fair for those other jurisdictions, doncha think?

Actually, I'm OK with that. I should decrease my hunting opportunities in my home province so someone else can go on an Arizona elk hunt?

Seriously it's not a burning issue for me, I'm not sure how much of a drain non-resident hunters and outfitters are. But if I was offered the choices of having more opportunities in my home province but less elsewhere, or the reverse, I know which I'd pick.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by brownbomber

to me it boils down to all the parties involved are violating the spirit of the law but not the letter of the law. .

thats certainly what it appears. reporters are however notorious for misquoting, so until the transcripts are available, im not willing to say for sure. for now though you are very correct in that assessment based on what has been printed in the papers.





no matter how it finishes, OLN cant be happy about this.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

no matter how it finishes, OLN cant be happy about this.

X2. maybe they just change the format of the show... have the new fella try to run away and hide, and teams of contestants (maybe just from the US yelling "Gimme my money!") try to track him down and catch him!

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by okotokian

x2. Maybe they just change the format of the show... Have the new fella try to run away and hide, and teams of contestants (maybe just from the us yelling "gimme my money!") try to track him down and catch him!

lol!!!

[nekred]

Years ago when I was just starting out in archery there was a young fellow fellow also a respected game guide, who gave me a lot of tips and help. He provided all sorts of information regarding bows, arrows, broadheads and showed me what he used for broadheads and why. basicly took me under his wing and shared a great deal of knowledge which was a great help. I was part of same archery club as him and we went to many shoots together as club members. He was always a lot of fun and getting a few drinks into him and him demonstrating elk calling was always a memorable time. Especially after a few drinks and he could do the best elk soap opera that would quickly degrade into something not so PG....and we would be howling and holding our sides... hard to shoot the next day with sore ribs and a hangover!...

I had not seen him for years and then ran into him again at a shoot he was advertising his own outfitting company. Meeting him again was a pleasure and we had a few laughs about past times.

In the end I remember how much help I recieved when I was a beginning archer and bowhunter so I will always remember how helpful he was.

For this I have lots of respect for Chad Lenz and it will take a lot more than hearsay, rumour, assumption and supposition to change my opinion. He helped out a newbie to archery and was great.

When I heard he was the new Mantracker I was pretty happy as from my own experience and memory they could not have picked a better guy.

Cheers Chad and Good Luck.

[huntin]

Originally Posted by nekred

Years ago when I was just starting out in archery there was a young fellow fellow also a respected game guide, who gave me a lot of tips and help. He provided all sorts of information regarding bows, arrows, broadheads and showed me what he used for broadheads and why. basicly took me under his wing and shared a great deal of knowledge which was a great help. I was part of same archery club as him and we went to many shoots together as club members. He was always a lot of fun and getting a few drinks into him and him demonstrating elk calling was always a memorable time. Especially after a few drinks and he could do the best elk soap opera that would quickly degrade into something not so PG....and we would be howling and holding our sides... hard to shoot the next day with sore ribs and a hangover!...

I had not seen him for years and then ran into him again at a shoot he was advertising his own outfitting company. Meeting him again was a pleasure and we had a few laughs about past times.

In the end I remember how much help I recieved when I was a beginning archer and bowhunter so I will always remember how helpful he was.

For this I have lots of respect for Chad Lenz and it will take a lot more than hearsay, rumour, assumption and supposition to change my opinion. He helped out a newbie to archery and was great.

When I heard he was the new Mantracker I was pretty happy as from my own experience and memory they could not have picked a better guy.


Cheers Chad and Good Luck.

X2 Chad also showed me a lot I guided for him from the time I was 19 -25 every chance I get I stop in at the lodge don't think you
Ask for a better guy as a friend.

[rem338win]

I happen to have met Chad a couple times and believe he is a stand up guy. Business is business and he is doing it. I am hearing and seeing a lot of so called conservatives talking like socialist douche bags on this thread. That's AO for ya

All outfitters must be millionaires in the eyes of you all, as 105,000 clams isn't a small cash investment and it bought an asset inside of a business to create business and give a return. No big deal, happens every day, but one side went sour, and that happens too.

Most of you guys are yapping and getting strung out about BS you don't have the whole story on anyway just to further personal agendas. How do you do a slow Wiser's clap backwards? Sad.....

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by rem338win

All outfitters must be millionaires in the eyes of you all, as 105,000 clams isn't a small cash investment and it bought an asset inside of a business to create business and give a return. No big deal, happens every day, but one side went sour, and that happens too.

Most of you guys are yapping and getting strung out about BS you don't have the whole story on anyway just to further personal agendas. How do you do a slow Wiser's clap backwards? Sad.....

Talk about money/returns and hunting in the same sentance and you arent getting any support from me. The intangibles hunting gives to the residents of this province is far too great to compare it to someone providing financial returns for a non resident.

I'm sure Chad is a great guy. But the tax payer resident hunters need to be looked after in the long run as well.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Talk about money/returns and hunting in the same sentance and you arent getting any support from me. The intangibles hunting gives to the residents of this province is far too great to compare it to someone providing financial returns for a non resident.

I'm sure Chad is a great guy. But the tax payer resident hunters need to be looked after in the long run as well.

^^^^...and now for a forward wisers clap, making that kind of money on a resource that is not yours is ridiculous.....JMHO

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by hal53

^^^^...and now for a forward wisers clap, making that kind of money on a resource that is not yours is ridiculous.....JMHO

And how is it different from minerals? timber? oil/gas? Are those not all resources owned by the province?

[hal53]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

And how is it different from minerals? timber? oil/gas? Are those not all resources owned by the province?

ever heard of an outfitter paying royalties???....
ever heard of a local timber company or oil co. being told that they can log/drill every 3 to 4 years only, but non-residents can come in and do it annually???

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by hal53

ever heard of an outfitter paying royalties???....

Ever hear of a timber company paying royalties?
If you want to compare it to oil/gas, outfitter tags were at one time purchased from the province, oil/gas is also purchased from the province, only they make payments (royalties)