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  #151  
Old 03-26-2015, 01:03 AM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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Originally Posted by FCLightning View Post
Well, an intelligent discussion would not begin with the assumption that we would need to ban any particular weapon or method of hunting simply because someone does not like it. Then the discussion moves further into the realm of overbearing pomposity when a magnanimous offer is made that it would be possible to regain legal status if you should like to "prove your method/weapon is worthy".
I think that you got sidetracked by the rhetoric about regulating and doing what is in the best interests of hunters.....

The ABA proposal is:

"Make use of spears and atlatls illegal for hunting big game in AB."

I don't see anywhere in there that states that the ABA would merely like to define what they are, you know, in best interests of all hunters .....they want them BANNED.....period!
  #152  
Old 03-26-2015, 06:29 AM
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I think that you got sidetracked by the rhetoric about regulating and doing what is in the best interests of hunters.....

The ABA proposal is:

"Make use of spears and atlatls illegal for hunting big game in AB."

I don't see anywhere in there that states that the ABA would merely like to define what they are, you know, in best interests of all hunters .....they want them BANNED.....period!
The proposal WAS

I think many got sidetracked by their hate and emotion.

You realize that proposal was 2-3 years ago, (made in 2012 for 2013 it's now 2015) and that the focus changed. That proposal is no longer valid and was not adopted that year. The way I inderstand is proposals are made, and referred, if not adopted they are not adopted and they are pushed to the side. Proposals are not indefinitely valid.

To the best of my knowledge the proposal is no longer valid, your side won Dave the fight is over!

You have to look past the email and proposal and start your healing process

Like BRL said the focus has changed.

Some of you are so stuck on what was said 3 years ago to realize we are past that point....I don't see the need to hold every member of an organization responsible for the questionable actions of a few....but if that's how some of you roll feel free.

Heck if people would get involved in real life and not on a forum there could be some real good changes occur

LC
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  #153  
Old 03-26-2015, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post

Heck if people would get involved in real life and not on a forum there could be some real good changes occur

LC
Bingo.... Lock this thread up and the passionate ones who wish to further this discussion can redirect they're sentiments to where it will do better in helping they're cause.
  #154  
Old 03-26-2015, 07:24 AM
FCLightning FCLightning is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post



Like BRL said the focus has changed.



LC
No, the focus hasn't changed, only the tactic.

I haven't seen anything remotely resembling "We are sorry for the mistakes that were made to force this unjust situation on our fellow hunters and we can assure you that we will be at the table doing everything we can to ensure that the rights of the hunting groups which we marginalized will be supported and carried forward with the strength of our organization behind them."

Instead what we have is "Defend and prove yourself or be banned.", "A near impossible task for so few people." and "If they had done more to help themselves.."
  #155  
Old 03-26-2015, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by FCLightning View Post
No, the focus hasn't changed, only the tactic.

I haven't seen anything remotely resembling "We are sorry for the mistakes that were made to force this unjust situation on our fellow hunters and we can assure you that we will be at the table doing everything we can to ensure that the rights of the hunting groups which we marginalized will be supported and carried forward with the strength of our organization behind them."

Instead what we have is "Defend and prove yourself or be banned.", "A near impossible task for so few people." and "If they had done more to help themselves.."
Pretty clear you just want to fight and argue and not move on...join the Atlatl group and become their spokesman...with that much passion I am sure they would love to put you front and center.

In regards to anything the ABA or its executive/members say/state on the issue I am pretty sure you would pick it apart and criticize, not very productive.

LC
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  #156  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
Pretty clear you just want to fight and argue and not move on...join the Atlatl group and become their spokesman...with that much passion I am sure they would love to put you front and center.

In regards to anything the ABA or its executive/members say/state on the issue I am pretty sure you would pick it apart and criticize, not very productive.

LC
I have a passion for the sport of hunting. Were there a group trying to marginalize bowhunting in the way that your organization is doing then I would argue for you with equal vehemence. And I certainly would not need to join your organization to do it.

With the current attitude as continues to be displayed on these threads towards the rights of fellow hunters, I regard the executive and supportive members of the ABA as having less honor and integrity than any of the anti-hunting organizations that exist.

I very much want to move on - but not in your direction. When you make a positive move towards inclusion and support then we will be able to walk together.
  #157  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:19 AM
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I have a passion for the sport and the future as well and I have chosen to join and participate in the organization I had questions about. So if it makes you "better" than I that you stand for "all Hunters" by not joining an organization....well I guess you are better than everyone else and everyone walks in your shadow. In my case I wasn't a member when this came to light and had I been I wouldn't have supported it....that's the point in getting involved

I belong to the AFGA by default...I sure as heck don't believe in everything they put forth either.

All I am saying is at some point you have to realize the proposal is no longer valid (which I don't believe you did know) and move on....or you can hold onto the bitterness of the past.

Your comment about ABA and members having no integrity and being lesser than that of antihunting organizations....shows your continued attempt to sling mud and stir up hate...sorry but I ain't falling for it, enjoy your day!

Meanwhile as a bowhunter you can continue to enjoy the things the ABA fought for to provide to folks like you who don't appreciate the good things.

LC
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  #158  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:24 AM
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It is easy to see the ABA should have just stayed out of the spear atlatl issue and stuck to helping bowhunters.

This has done nothing to benefit the ABA or bowhunters. Instead it has turned a number of bowhunters away from the ABA on an issue that has nothing to do with bowhunters. The small group of spear and atlatl hunters were happy left to there hunts and were not lobbying to join archery seasons or take away from bowhunting opportunity. ABA should have stayed neutral and left the spear/atlatl alone.

Sticking your nose where it does not belong rarely reaps benefits
  #159  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:25 AM
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Well Said...
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  #160  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by J D View Post
It is easy to see the ABA should have just stayed out of the spear atlatl issue and stuck to helping bowhunters.

This has done nothing to benefit the ABA or bowhunters. Instead it has turned a number of bowhunters away from the ABA on an issue that has nothing to do with bowhunters. The small group of spear and atlatl hunters were happy left to there hunts and were not lobbying to join archery seasons or take away from bowhunting opportunity. ABA should have stayed neutral and left the spear/atlatl alone.

Sticking your nose where it does not belong rarely reaps benefits
Agree...but what's done is done, let's move on to more pressing things.

LC
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  #161  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FCLightning View Post
I have a passion for the sport of hunting. Were there a group trying to marginalize bowhunting in the way that your organization is doing then I would argue for you with equal vehemence. And I certainly would not need to join your organization to do it.

With the current attitude as continues to be displayed on these threads towards the rights of fellow hunters, I regard the executive and supportive members of the ABA as having less honor and integrity than any of the anti-hunting organizations that exist.

I very much want to move on - but not in your direction. When you make a positive move towards inclusion and support then we will be able to walk together.
This guy is just looking for a ****ing match .

I am a member of ABA. I am a bowhunter and I support ABA because of all the good they have done for the bowhunting community here in Alberta. If they did make a mistake they should own up to it. Nowadays it seems like nobody sees the good in anything and just criticizes every mistake someone makes

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  #162  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
Agree...but what's done is done, let's move on to more pressing things.

LC
In my honest opinion the ABA should man up to it's mistake. Screwing up is one thing it is how they deal with their mistake that will show hunters if they can be trusted with their support

This would go a long way in regaining faith from those who are upset over this issue.

Sweeping it under the rug does not make it go away
  #163  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:46 AM
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Stinkhammer nails it!!!!! I'm glad I wasn't the first to point it out.

Both sides sticking to their guns (or spear) in this thread - gotta love the passion. Some think the ABA went out to purposely throw spear and atalas hunters under the bus, when it fact, it was the complete opposite. They brought a concern to AGMAG (the point of that process) that could affect how the public views all hunters/sportsmen (since the antis don't care about different hunting styles ). I can certainly see, in the way it came about, how many could think that the ABA was attacking a smaller group, but as a member of the executive, I can assure you that was never the case. It's too bad more can't see the actual purpose being the intiation of the discussion. Yes it did start out as "ban spears ... etc", but was quickly change to "define legal equip....etc" because after intial discussions, that made more sense to protect ALL hunters - based on feedback from other groups/ABA members. We're one of two provinces left who haven't defined legal weapons.

I personnally think it's wise, this day in age, to have a regulated sport, especially to defend against the antis. Some may called that naive, I call it being prepared, kinda like keeping your house in order or 'ducks in a row'. The fact the spears, rock throwers, nunchucks and skipping ropes to strangle deer aren't taught at hunter saftey course as effective killing tools is low hanging fruit for anti hunters to attack hunters as being illprepared for the challenge of hunting. That's like someone going to work for the first time, working with mechaninal devices that can kill you without any training whatsoever ... what organization would ever allow that? And if a near miss or death was the result, the root cause would surely be identiied quickly. Anti hunters don't need more ammo against us, especially easy loop holes in the regulations like that.

I have no desire to hunt with a spear/atalas/rock ... etc. I love bowhuting and that's where I devote my time. I wish all the best to whomever wants to go through the process of legalizing 'different' weapons to hunt with. I have no dought they'll come prepared to discuss their position, but they also need to be prepared to handle questions/concerns of the image risk that would apply to all hunters - just like the archery community had to so many years ago. Yes it sucks that you can hunt with a rock (or spear) today and that might not be the case in the future, but it's best for all hunters to have clear regulations.

I (not the ABA) suggest this:

- Have a 3 year test season of weapons, who's passionate members can defend and prove them as efficient killing tools
- So that'll give 3 years for the ~6 people who own spears in Alberta to get 'r done.
- After that, the AGMAG (or whatever other process the hunting community needs to partcipate in at that time) will evaluate the results.
- i suspect the harvest rate will be low and the public scrutiny even more so.
- i suspect this thread will be on page 129 (just like the crossbow debate)
The part in bold is laughable. I haven't seen anyone on this or other threads trying to justify rocks and skipping ropes.

This is a statement from the hunter Ed. course.

From sticks and simple stones to modern archery equipment, imagine early man being able to project an arrow downrange accurately enough to be able to harvest food or protect himself from predators.

Some would say that language, fire and these simple tools assured mans rise above the animals. The skill of mastering the bow and arrow to send a simple implement to it’s mark was an essential part of our very survival in our early days. Bow and arrow became an absolute necessity in obtaining food and defending mankind in battles for many centuries. While the stakes may not be as high today, the rewards are still great.
Today archers take up the bow and arrow for fun, recreation, hunting the pursuit of excellence and their pleasure and satisfaction comes from connecting with a skill that dates back to our earliest ancestors. For more than 5000 years the archer has played a major role in human existence and modern equipment has allowed us far greater accuracy and dependability. Our course will introduce you to archer and help reconnect you to this challenging and historic pastime.


Would it really be a stretch to change bow and arrow in that statement to Spear and Atlatl? Honestly I just don't get your reasoning. They are all cutting weapons and when the time comes to make the kill it comes down to the user, nothing else.


So what would you like to see on how Spears and Atlatl's are regulated?

Other than implementing a sharp 7/8" cutting head and having a minimum weight of 2 pounds for a spear what else would you like? (I am not very familiar with Atlatl's so I will let someone with more experience chime in)

Are you trying to say we need to regulate ethics?

You said "since the antis don't care about different hunting styles". So what is the point of banning spears and atlatl's? I guarantee unethical bow and rifle hunters are more of a threat than a small group of Spear and Atlatl hunters if that really is the reasoning.

On a side note the people who I have talked to about hunting with spears and atlatl's almost welcome it. More of a traditional way of doing things. Gives the animals a chance, or fair chase if you get my meaning. Anti's don't like people killing animals period. I am actually quite surprised a bow hunting association would even bring something like this up considering that spears and atlatl's kill the same way a bow and arrow does.
  #164  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by J D View Post
In my honest opinion the ABA should man up to it's mistake. Screwing up is one thing it is how they deal with their mistake that will show hunters if they can be trusted with their support

This would go a long way in regaining faith from those who are upset over this issue.

Sweeping it under the rug does not make it go away
I fully agree.
  #165  
Old 03-26-2015, 08:59 AM
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I'm not trying to make something of nothing. I am trying to make a sensible suggestion in a forum where I assumed intelligent discussion could be made. So I will continue to assume that is what you are doing as well. .
Intelligent discussion does not exist on AO. Its too bad. Posters get emotionally attached to their opinions and throw common sense and reason out during the discussion. Arm chair critics have that luxury! Like LC has said a few times in here, join an association and become an active member to be part of the real discussions and decision making.
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  #166  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:05 AM
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I joined ABA this year because I am a bow hunter and want to have a say in its future. This should provide me with a platform to do just that. I guess time will tell if I see a benefit in being a member and if I do I will encourage others to join.
  #167  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:24 AM
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I'm not trying to make something of nothing. I am trying to make a sensible suggestion in a forum where I assumed intelligent discussion could be made. So I will continue to assume that is what you are doing as well.
It doesn't matter what I think needs regulating. It matters what the larger group of us can come up with as reasonable regulations. We regulate calibre of bullets, arrow construction, and other things. Is it that preposterous to suggest regulating another weapon or two? I'm all for spears and atlatls. I'd like to try it too. But why is this thread turning into such an argument?
Maybe blade width, minimum length, density or mass, materials, manners in which the blade can be fastened? ? ? .... i'm sure more of us could come up with something appropriate better than I could on my own.
Can you show me where all these things are for an authorized arrow. I found a few but not all.

Persons hunting big game must use an authorized bow and an authorized arrow. An authorized bow is one that is held, drawn and released by muscular power and has a draw weight of not less than 18 kg (40 lb.). This is the number of kilograms (pounds) required to draw an arrow of 71 cm (28 in.) to its head. An authorized arrow is one that is not less than 61 cm (24 in.) in length that has a tip that bears a head that is not intentionally designed to resist being withdrawn after it has penetrated an object. Furthermore, it must either have a solid, sharp cutting head of at least 7/8 inch in width, or a head that, when the arrow impacts, opens to present sharp cutting edges at least 7/8 inch in width.


My spear.

7/8" sharp head= Check
2 pound minimum weight=check
not intentionally designed to resist being withdrawn after it has penetrated an object. =check

Are you saying that there needs to be a standard on the type of arrow used? (density or mass, materials, manners in which the blade can be fastened) I am sure the traditional archery guy's will like that one.
  #168  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:44 AM
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Archery regs have been in place and define and are part of the regulations for years, the work in figuring what's legally acceptable is complete and in place.

Nothing exists for other methods, not contained. Yes technically within a hunting season and with a tag you can strangle a deer if you want....some of you are ok with that?

LC
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  #169  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:54 AM
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Funny thing about all of these Regulations people are talking about, when I picked up a bow over 30 years ago, I did not read any regulations, I just started bear hunting.

Way to many regulations and forced agendas these days if you ask me!
  #170  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
Archery regs have been in place and define and are part of the regulations for years, the work in figuring what's legally acceptable is complete and in place.

Nothing exists for other methods, not contained. Yes technically within a hunting season and with a tag you can strangle a deer if you want....some of you are ok with that?

LC
Why keep distracting with strangling deer, rocks, skipping ropes ect.

Isn't this thread about spears and atlatl's? Cutting weapons, same as archery.
  #171  
Old 03-26-2015, 09:57 AM
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Looking at other posts and dozens of pages with same results...which is zero!!!
This post is still or never going anywhere besides pointing fingers...and stating opinons without all facts...

Why are we disscussing this???

Maybe because people who had harvested game with an atlatl wanted to have this recognized in the game awards with ABA…This spurred further discussion all the way up to the AGMAG and brought attenion to the Spear and Atlatl crowd...brought on by themselves

Then because there is no clear definations on atlatls..of the ball gets dropped on ABA...

Who would blame ABA for dropping that hot potatoe...

Did the ABA president react?...when we elect a president we know that sometimes under fire a president may have to push that button...although it looks like he pushed that button be assured that it was disscussed at the table first by all that run the big show!!

Personally I have nothing against the Spear and Atlatl crowd...and think it would be fun but not efficent in my own hands to hunt...its not my place to say whether it should be legal or not for hunting...

My suggestion is to take this higher to the AGMAG for consideration and stop looking like a bunch of trouble making finger pointers on a forum with no resolve other than pizzing everyone off!!!

For that reason I will PM a Mod to have this thread locked and end the pointless mayhem!!!

Neil
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  #172  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by L.O.S.T.Arrow View Post

Looking at other posts and dozens of pages with same results...which is zero!!!
This post is still or never going anywhere besides pointing fingers...and stating opinons without all facts...

Why are we disscussing this???

Maybe because people who had harvested game with an atlatl wanted to have this recognized in the game awards with ABA…This spurred further discussion all the way up to the AGMAG and brought attenion to the Spear and Atlatl crowd...brought on by themselves

Then because there is no clear definations on atlatls..of the ball gets dropped on ABA...

Who would blame ABA for dropping that hot potatoe...

Did the ABA president react?...when we elect a president we know that sometimes under fire a president may have to push that button...although it looks like he pushed that button be assured that it was disscussed at the table first by all that run the big show!!

Personally I have nothing against the Spear and Atlatl crowd...and think it would be fun but not efficent in my own hands to hunt...its not my place to say whether it should be legal or not for hunting...

My suggestion is to take this higher to the AGMAG for consideration and stop looking like a bunch of trouble making finger pointers on a forum with no resolve other than pizzing everyone off!!!

For that reason I will PM a Mod to have this thread locked and end the pointless mayhem!!!

Neil
I suppose you are right, most of the questions I have asked get turned into skipping ropes, rocks, strangling and even num-chucks. Not one suggestion on how spears and atlatl's could be regulated to make the ABA happy.
  #173  
Old 03-26-2015, 10:07 AM
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