Why is a high fence Saskatchewan outfitter allowed to advertise in our Alberta hunting regs?

[rem338win]

To the OP: did you pay for that magazine? No, and don't pull an I pay for tags or taxes schpeal either. Advertisers pay for those magazines to be printed, so the guys who pay get to advertise. Don't like it? Petition to pay $2 outta pocket to pick one up every time you need it.

[Full Curl Earl]

Some people get angry on here when they feel morals or ethics are being exercised, I wonder why that is? Lots of the same names continue to pop up I've noticed.
So the last poster believes people should turn a blind eye to things they think are wrong, or pay $2. As though there were no other advertisers or sources of income. Using its just advertisement seems like a cop out. We mostly seem to agree that this is not hunting, so what about other morally challenging advertisers that are legal elsewhere? Marihuana in Colorado, Ladies in Amsterdam? I am not morally or ethically against either of these two products, but I sure don't think they have a place in the Provincial Hunting Synopsis.

Oh yeah, and how does my truck seat relate to any of this? Lol

[nekred]

I thought we had freedom of speech... especially in advertising if a person is willing to pay and not advertise something that is illegal.... so be it....

At least it is not cigarette or booze ads.....(censored) when you think of how many hunters and outdoorsmen like to enjoy a fine spirit, beer or tobacco product now and then...

[nekred]

I wonder how much Greenpeace would pay to advertise in the synopsis to preach to us heathens....

[Mulehahn]

First, I want to admit that I misspoke and was wrong. The animals taken on these trips are not trophies, trophies are earned. These animals are a memento. I can go to Vegas for a weekend, drop 5 grand and come back with a t-shirt, or I can go to one of these outfitters for a weekend, spend the same the same and come back with a 190 whitetail or 390 elk. Which one a person prefers is a matter of preference.

As for the earlier post about Colorado or Amsterdam, these things are very much advertised in Canada, just not in the Hunting Regs. The reason is clear, target demographic! As has been said, these hunts are illegal in Alberta, but does that mean that an Alberta resident shouldn't be allowed to partake? I have tried and tried, but cannot see how a person using one of these outfitters takes anything away from an Alberta hunter. This is not a rhetorical or sarcastic question.

How does someone going to Saskatchewan, purchasing one of these packages, and taking an animal in any way diminish the accomplishment of an Albertan who purchases a tag, spends hours scouting, and is successful?

[Full Curl Earl]

Good question, I don't know if anything gets taken away, at least not in the short term? For me it's about our membership, our brotherhood, sisterhood, etc, being tarnished. For me it's a bad thing.
I have never hunted a release of pheasant for the same reason, yet as Cat stated earlier, those pheasants once away from the release site can go anywhere. I believe supporting hunt farms ends in really bad things, and has been proven in many places. Hunt farms remove access to wild land and huntable areas, it promotes an accepted Pay to Access program.
And all of this weighs litely compared to CWD and other captive Cervid disease.
So I guess what it takes from me personally, is the possibillity that one day I may not be able to take my children and Grandhildren hunting on free land. I believe this stance is way more solid than, "hey, it's his money, he should be allowed to do what he wants with it", living by morals isn't the bad thing some AO members want you to believe.

[expmler]

It's the same old story. People who spout morals and ethics aren't happy living their own righteous lives, they want to impose them on everyone else.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by expmler

It's the same old story. People who spout morals and ethics aren't happy living their own righteous lives, they want to impose them on everyone else.

Fair enough, but let's consider the non-ethical concerns associated with game/kill farms.

As had been prophesized, game farming introduced a fatal disease into our wild populations of elk, deer and moose. Caribou will likely be next on the list of WILD species infected by game farm introduced CWD. Besides CWD there are several other deadly pathogens that the practice of game farming creates an elevated risk to OUR wild animals.

The disease issue stands alone as a sufficient reason to eliminate game farming/shooting.


Alberta/Sask hunters are rightfully proud of their wildlife's ability to prosper in this environment. Genetic contamination from escaped game farm animals crossbreeding with OUR wild populations is an important "non-ethical" concern to be aware of. Why risk the genetic health of OUR wildlife to create an income for a handful of game farmers?


The regulation changes allowing individuals to Own native wildlife goes against the founding principals behind Public ownership of wildlife. This was a turn down the road to the King's deer. Currently in Alberta behind closed doors and with absolutely NO Public consultation, our government is deciding on whether or not to allow these Privately owned "diversified Livestock" to roam at large. This is the next step in a direction desiring ownership of free range "wildlife" on private property. Privately owned free range "wildlife" on leased crown and even Public lands is in sight.


It doesn't take a great effort to see the connection between Game/shooting Farms and its evolution towards influencing the end of Wildlife.






I am also disappointed that the Hunting regs. contain this advertisement. I sure hope that it is not included next year.

[ditch donkey]

Jeepers, this place would drive a man to drink!

I've already said, it's got nothing to do with my morals. I have hunted high fence, South Africa, and 936. I don't smoke, that doesn't mean you have to quit. Come to my place, and I'll even dig out a lighter and a ash tray.

My post was more about hypocracy. I realize the regs are not put out by the Government, but they do list the laws layed out by the government. I think there is even a few sections regarding code of conduct or ethics in there. Alberta does not allow hunt farms for wild life.

Ralph Klein even went as far as comparing it to shooting cows in a pen, and saying not on his watch.


I feel it is hypocritical to be promoting these hunts in our provincial regs.

Also, the company that publishes the regs, also publishes the Alberta outdoorsmen magazine. A magazine I subscribe to, and pay for. There is no shortage of articles condemning game ranching. I don't think it's hard to see the hypocracy of condemning an industry on one hand, and taking money in the other and promoting it.

The argument that companies have the right to advertise legal activities is non sense.
I'm not trying to take away your right to hunt Tibetan Yak, or mouflon in Saskatchewan. I just don't think our regs is the place to advertise it.

[shep dog]

Originally Posted by expmler

It's the same old story. People who spout morals and ethics aren't happy living their own righteous lives, they want to impose them on everyone else.

Well said.

OP: "Massages are legal, so if something is legal, and there is money to be made advertising it, morals be damned!" Wow, how's that for a leap in logic?

[expmler]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Fair enough, but let's consider the non-ethical concerns associated with game/kill farms.

As had been prophesized, game farming introduced a fatal disease into our wild populations of elk, deer and moose. Caribou will likely be next on the list of WILD species infected by game farm introduced CWD. Besides CWD there are several other deadly pathogens that the practice of game farming creates an elevated risk to OUR wild animals.

The disease issue stands alone as a sufficient reason to eliminate game farming/shooting.


Alberta/Sask hunters are rightfully proud of their wildlife's ability to prosper in this environment. Genetic contamination from escaped game farm animals crossbreeding with OUR wild populations is an important "non-ethical" concern to be aware of. Why risk the genetic health of OUR wildlife to create an income for a handful of game farmers?


The regulation changes allowing individuals to Own native wildlife goes against the founding principals behind Public ownership of wildlife. This was a turn down the road to the King's deer. Currently in Alberta behind closed doors and with absolutely NO Public consultation, our government is deciding on whether or not to allow these Privately owned "diversified Livestock" to roam at large. This is the next step in a direction desiring ownership of free range "wildlife" on private property. Privately owned free range "wildlife" on leased crown and even Public lands is in sight.


It doesn't take a great effort to see the connection between Game/shooting Farms and its evolution towards influencing the end of Wildlife.






I am also disappointed that the Hunting regs. contain this advertisement. I sure hope that it is not included next year.

The CWD issue is a valid concern. Will it be the demise of wildlife? I'm not to sure.

I think the game farm issue comes down to a battle between two special interest groups, Game farmers VS hunters.

The trouble is that our group seems more interested in judging each other than getting together as a united group and having our concerns addressed.

When squawking about an ad in the regs on an internet forum is all most of us are willing to do to, and even that turns into a morals and ethics debate between us we get what we deserve.

What do you think would happen if Alta\Sask hunters told the gov't there would be nobody buying licences this year unless these hunt farms were outlawed.

Now how many Alta\Sask hunters do you think are willing to do it.

[Resurrected]

I'm little confused with this high fence hunting are the animals in a cage little bigger then them? Or large area with a fence around it? Calling the govt. and telling them your not buying tags till they change something, give it a try. They paid for ad and it's legal there and just cause you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Whole lotta holier then thou on here.
Just my thought.

[Full Curl Earl]

Folks who are spouting about others who are holy'er than hell, what's up? Dont you think your morals or values are important? What should one teach their children about right or wrong? only laws? if you see someone drop a $20 bill on the sidewalk, do you tell them or pick it up aftetwards? Why are some folks so Anti Morals and Ethics? There is not one post in this thread that says "my morals and Ethics are better that yours, and you must live my mine"!
Enough with the personal attacks already by the keyboard tough guys.
This has me more perplexed than ever, why is there an abundance of AO members who don't like morals, ethics and are ok with anything as long as its legal. That's allot of faith to have in our lawmakers.

[Full Curl Earl]

Just thinking, maybe because this thing we call hunting is very Moral and Ethic's based. I think hunters make more Moral and Ethical decisions in a season than the average person makes in a lifetime. Examples might be not taking rump shots, shooting ducks while on the water, ground pounding pheasants, snapping the necks of wounded ducks, using barbless hooks, not shooting or shooting bucks stuck in fences or locked up, truck hunting etc, etc, etc.
I think, but I may be wrong, if your character allows you to kill animals with a shovel, you may likely be ok with high fence hunts? If you kick birds up to flight and use barbless hooks, then maybe you don't like High fence hunts?
Of course this is a generalization, but I bet it's pretty close.
There is a whole section in the Hunter Education manual about these devlish Morals and Ethics things.

[catnthehat]

A guy could always throw in baiting of bears, blood trailing wounded game with dogs , hunting with hounds , hunting with lights, hunting big game with .22 caliber centre fire rifles, hunting with hand guns, and hunting with cross bows.
All of these things are morally and ethically correct to some ( and legal!)and not others and have been discussed on this forum .
Oh yeah, and let's not forget the favourite shooting grouse with a .22!
Cat

[Full Curl Earl]

Ya, those are good examples for sure Cat. The more I think about it, the more there are. There may be no other past time experiencing more Moral and Ethical dilemmas than hunting. Add In passion and its a real fire cracker of a debate topic.

[expmler]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Just thinking, maybe because this thing we call hunting is very Moral and Ethic's based. I think hunters make more Moral and Ethical decisions in a season than the average person makes in a lifetime. Examples might be not taking rump shots, shooting ducks while on the water, ground pounding pheasants, snapping the necks of wounded ducks, using barbless hooks, not shooting or shooting bucks stuck in fences or locked up, truck hunting etc, etc, etc.
I think, but I may be wrong, if your character allows you to kill animals with a shovel, you may likely be ok with high fence hunts? If you kick birds up to flight and use barbless hooks, then maybe you don't like High fence hunts?
Of course this is a generalization, but I bet it's pretty close.
There is a whole section in the Hunter Education manual about these devlish Morals and Ethics things.

In the examples you give, my decisions may differ from yours in some instances. Who decides what is ethical or moral. You? Me? The Gov't?

[Full Curl Earl]

You do. Morality and Ethics are personal. But I think there are some social norms that makes you "a good man" or woman. Better yet, I see traits in people I respect, and it's not because they simply follow the laws in society, it's because they make the tough decision to live above that standard. And I think we all choose our Freinds based on this similarity. I am guessing I dont have any Freinds that would hunt high fence because I probably find their overall personalities unlikable?

[Dewey Cox]

I think people are mad that someone who's never hunted can pay to shoot an animal that's bigger than one they've spent their whole life hunting to get.

This game "shopping" doesn't make your hunting accomplishments any less impressive or fulfilling.

Also remember, there are A LOT of people that see shooting a deer with a rifle as both unethical and immoral.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by roger

There money is as green as anyones elses.

I wont partake in it, but others might and should have the right to access.

Exactly, legal and no need to discuss ethics or morals.

[kayaker]

Likely for the same reason our much lauded big box outdoor retailers sell deer bait, excuse me, I mean 'feed supplements'. No-one in AB would dare kill deer over these baits...would they?

The same reason that the 100% success guarantees from put and take pen shooting exists because the dogma of the apparent 'free'-market means that commodification must be always correlated with unquestioning acceptability.

[Tatonka]

Question: Who here supports SCI? If you are against game farms but support SCI you are for and against the same thing, or at least you are for one aspect of what SCI supports. You can make the SCI record book if you go to a high fence area, pick out a critter you like (most rates are based on the size of the animal you kill....the bigger the antlers, the more you pay), and kill it.

Having said that, I'm fully aware that SCI does many, many other good things for hunting... I belonged for a couple of years before deciding it wasn't for me..

Now, I am neither against or for SCI or game farms... Neither are for me, but everyone has a right to what they enjoy. Just because I do not support either doesn't mean they are bad....it's just my personal decision.

[Preux86]

Considering the Regs are free,the only way to afford printing costs would be advertising.
I dont care to Hunt a highfence deer in my life. But its really no different from Released pheasant hunts,hog hunting or fishing stocked ponds. Everyone sits on a high horse choosing which ethics fit them and then enforcing them on others... its like a new religion.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Preux86

Considering the Regs are free,the only way to afford printing costs would be advertising.
I dont care to Hunt a highfence deer in my life. But its really no different from Released pheasant hunts,hog hunting or fishing stocked ponds. Everyone sits on a high horse choosing which ethics fit them and then enforcing them on others... its like a new religion.

Avoiding a judgement on anything is the new religion. Hunting seasons are based on judgements, many years ago a bunch of people got together and said this mass unabated slaughter must stop, we need a season. I imagine now a days that would be poo pawed as way too judgemental.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Ya, those are good examples for sure Cat. The more I think about it, the more there are. There may be no other past time experiencing more Moral and Ethical dilemmas than hunting. Add In passion and its a real fire cracker of a debate topic.

Absolutely, most threads that go past 5 pages are because of this reason. Good to hear others points of view, as some of my morals and ethics have changed after hearing stuff that I never thought about. Then there is stuff that after I hear just reinforces my believes. I don't think we all should have the same morals and ethics, at least to a certain degree. It would make for a pretty boring hunting forum if we did.

[TBark]

[QUOTE=ditch donkey;2509071]
These hunts are legal in Saskatchewan, but I don't live in Saskatchewan. The province has it's own set of ethics it uses to set laws. And that is why we can not hunt wild life on game farms.



I think if you swapp the words "ethics" and "laws" in your post, you'll have it right.

TBark

[TBark]

double post

[Ivo]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Folks who are spouting about others who are holy'er than hell, what's up? Dont you think your morals or values are important? What should one teach their children about right or wrong? only laws? if you see someone drop a $20 bill on the sidewalk, do you tell them or pick it up aftetwards? Why are some folks so Anti Morals and Ethics? There is not one post in this thread that says "my morals and Ethics are better that yours, and you must live my mine"!
Enough with the personal attacks already by the keyboard tough guys.
This has me more perplexed than ever, why is there an abundance of AO members who don't like morals, ethics and are ok with anything as long as its legal. That's allot of faith to have in our lawmakers.

^ This is it! Why is it such a bad thing to have morals? Sometimes the law just isn't enough. There is no law that says you should be a hard worker but would you like your kids to grow up to be hard workers? There is no law saying you have to open a door for someone elderly but do you teach your kids to do that?
This debate is the EXACT same thing!

It's bigger than the law sometimes. I don't know why this is so intriguing to so many people, how could someone be proud to hang something on the wall that they shot on a canned hunt? Or would you like to BS people with some fabricated story of how you stalked him for hours and finally got that perfect shot right at the end of the day after a 10km hike and had to drag him back in the dark over 2 ridges?

I certainly don't have a holier than thou attitude but I am proud of who I am and what I've accomplished in my life and I will call someone out if I feel the need to. At the same time, I expect someone to call me out if I get out of line and have no problem admitting if I'm wrong.

[nekred]

Originally Posted by Ivo

^

I certainly don't have a holier than thou attitude but I am proud of who I am and what I've accomplished in my life and I will call someone out if I feel the need to. At the same time, I expect someone to call me out if I get out of line and have no problem admitting if I'm wrong.

Isn't I will call someone out if I feel the need to pretty much the definition of holier than thou!....

WOW!

I don't get it they advertise their legal business to potential customer's and pay for the privelege of doing so so we don't have to pay for our regs.

If you don't like it then rip that page out or cover it up... or ,maybe just don't hunt there....

pretty cool to go and get a mouflon without paying thousands upon thousands .... Really could we not say that paying someone to do all the work, and outfitting so we can pull the trigger is much the same thing....

[nekred]

ETHICS and MORALS are the standards I set for myself and live by

LAWS are result of COLLECTIVE ETHICS AND MORALS As determined by a governing agency

HYPOCRISY is when II expect you to live by certain morals when I don't

If I impose my MORALS and ETHICS on YOU then that is TYRANNY

Would you guys also ban FREEDOM of SPEECH....FREEDOM of EXPRESSION, and FREEDOM of CHOICE?

"RCMP better not take my guns that is tyranny, but don't let a publicly published document advertise in accordance with law something that is against my morals."

Maybe we shoukld not advertise hog hunts in the smae magazine as it is offensive to Muslims and they live in Alberta, maybe we need to make sure we don't show harvested animals as it may offend animal lovers, Yata Yata Yata....