Is SRD attempting to raise pygmy trout?

[Dust1n]

could you PM where you bought that damsel lure/? thanks

[pope]

Robin, The quality (size) of fish has really dropped in the last few years at Beaver Lake. And where to do you propose those of us who want to catch bigger fish go? Not that simple. Point is, the mismanagement of these lakes has ruined the quality of fishing. But, I guess you are in the camp that believes "quality" is catching a bunch of minnows.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom55

Not to point to fine a point on it mr. bigtoad, but I believe you should study in detail the arguments presented by Sundancefisher, et al, on this very topic not two months ago. He used similar tactics, particularly the name calling and belittling of his opponents, and tried very hard to present almost the same argument that you are making now with your desire to "improve" the fisheries in Alberta.

Freedom55... if you review the thread there was some very good quality discussions. Yes people do get carried away with the emotion of the topic...however some can't seem to take the personal attacks of some fictitious elitist paranoia out of their mind. Great to know you still keep thinking about me. Hopefully you will transcend your paranoia that everyone in the oil patch is elitist and then you can actually contribute to the discussion at hand.

Go back and read through all that verbal diarrhea before you continue. If what you are seeking is different from what he was running with, then by all means continue your debate. Maybe you can come up with some better and more convincing ideas. Or, perhaps, you will find a way to improve your style of oration by seeing how that fellow managed to alienate most of his audience. For someone that hates the threads...you just can't stop reading. I think we all need a reminder to stay on topic and not be personal from time to time. I think the best way to do that is through example and looking internally as to how we are each approaching getting our points across. Sometimes when someone seems to be just trolling...people lose patience. Probably the best way to handle them is to just ignore them on the discussion until they have something valuable to add to the thread. I need to follow that rule more myself for sure...ops I am posting. I am bad.

That debate, at least according to the data presented by the proponents, resulted in a total of some three hundred signatures on a petition presented to the province on behalf of the small crowd that want the same as you. If that is the poll that you are referring to, then those are small numbers! Some of those that petitioned in favor of changes to the regulations admitted to being non-anglers and were encouraged to do so by the meanderings of someone with an elitist mandate. Interesting...please do tell where all these non fishermen are showing up on the petition. If I have that much power over people...let me exercise it. Everyone...give me a twenty dollar bill...do it now. (queue the freaky music). As for total numbers...our little poll was small compared to the over all population...but you don't think it is actually indicative of the majority? Sub samples do have merit in such a discussion. One may of been upset that a poll did not yield the expected outcome against the general thread...but well...that is what people said via their response. Plus...our AOF poll was a small part of a great poll being distributed to fishing stores etc. Even another poll on this site has >70% wanting 1 or no fish limits. As for your verbal diarrhea comment...many people had great comments...and please do tell...why to you still chose to read and read and read all these comments when you don't like either the poster or the thread. Everyone would be fine if you exercised your right to stay away.

How am I an elitist. Please let me know and please don't send me another manifesto via PM...as I will not post those...I am just asking you to be up front. Maybe you are mistaken about something and we can be friends once we patch up a misunderstanding. Please read the remaining post that is on topic below.

Don. I would say that like with anything, when changes occur there can be a delayed response. Historically the higher ups in F&W were of the vintage that believed if you spent $40 on gas you should be able to bring home $40 worth of fresh fish. It was truly a system designed to increase the take home of meat rather than the more esoteric idea of recreational fishing for the sake of being outdoors and having a great time pitting ones skill against mother natures horde of fish species.

Times have changed dramatically from what is was 10-15 years ago. More people fishing means crashing fish stocks. Species after species have come under thread. Hard decisions needed to be made to reduce harvest...even with stop gap measures of increased stocking of walleye etc. This is turn let F&W feel the full wrath of the fishing lobby and well...it is a drizzle rather than anything approaching a thunderstorm. Protests are meek and poorly run...and well...what is to protest. There is no fish to catch. So IMHO F&W saw that the merits of changing past practices is not met with fury.

Then queue in the new comers to F&W. The young guns so to speak. These guys grew up catching fewer and fewer fish due to over fishing and general fishing pressure. Sure they could travel long distances...seek out the remaining sanctuaries of fish...but they probably asked themselves. Why do we do this? I pass by 5, 10, 20 lakes to get to a far distant place with fish remaining. Why not just improve what we have closer to the population centers.

Then we see the start of a new paradigm for many...Bullshead and the 1 over 20 inch regulation. People down south actually rallied pretty hard against the concept. Bait fishermen led the charge but the young guns held true to the concept of thinking outside the box for Albertans. The policy took place and golly...both sides then admitted that the regulations were in fact a great thing. Increased numbers of fish to catch and fishing was easy with a bobber and fly and holy cow...the fish were way bigger. People liked it so much they obviously had to ask for more. So then begun the real push for quality lakes and just to be clear just a small percentage of the lake...definitely not most or anything close to a majority of them. Not all lakes make management sense to implement the regulations.

There are some that believe it is an elitist conspiracy to create a catch and release Province...but that is so far from common sense that it is a hard argument to discuss due to the emotional fear on one side. Me personally...I love that other poll that shows there is a fairly wide preference for people and their home waters. To me that validates my personal opinion that we need balanced regulations to benefit all sides, all points, all preferences and not cow tow to any one side. Not everyone wants C&R and not everyone wants to kill 1, 3 or 5 trout a day. The important thing to say though is the MAJORITY don't want the status quo of past practices with excessive limits. So back to an early post of mine on another thread...this discussion and similar ones should be more a question of... should we be fair, share the resources and compromise on fisheries management styles and keep all user groups in mind when formulating regulations? I say YES.

Freedom55...just to reiterate...I am not an elitist. In any given year I fly fish, spin fish, troll, bait fish...you name it I will fish it...cause the only goal I have is to catch fish. If you are upset I am a passionate poster then well it is just the way I am. Exercise your right to not read anything I type....otherwise...

.... can we please just bury the hatchet and be board buddies? Maybe not hugging friends but just two guys that upon passing by and grunt with a smile and a nod while going by. Probably Christmas cards would be excessive...but a nice hi ya Freedom55...how are you? Get any nice gifts? I am looking forward to warming weather. How about you?

[huntin'fool]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

........But Robin, you put up a fine defense for your prospective employer.
.............Oh, I get it - you think that a 14" is a trophy. Least you're following the "company" line.

Don

Sorry, nothing further to add to this thread. Just to comment that I nearly fell off my chair laughing at your comments, Don. Thanks for the laugh.

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by Fish Hunter7

could you PM where you bought that damsel lure/? thanks

If you are talking about the little green rubber lure In the pic of the trout, I got a bunch of them in NSW Australia.

[Don Andersen]

And Robin,
I hope like hell that you disinfected the rubbers before you packed them back into Alberta.
All we need is more imported crap that SRD does nothing about.

Don

[duffy4]

These anglers are at Phyllis lake, the one in the middle is pretty happy it's a quantity lake not a quality lake. But Don maybe doesn't agree.




These ice-fishermen at Strubel seem to be enjoying a day fishing. Or are they really in their tents crying in their beer cause they can't catch a "trophy trout"?




What the heck was this guy thinking, driving all the way to Strubel on a cold blizzardy day. Just to catch some pygmy fish?





And what is with these guys? Don't they know that there are so few "really" trophy trout in Beaver lake that is not worth your while to wet a line there?




Why would "Grandpa" take his grandkids to Strubel? Doesn't he know it is way over stocked and will not produce a trophy trout for his grand daughters first fish?

[Geezle]

Originally Posted by duffy4

These anglers are at Phyllis lake, the one in the middle is pretty happy it's a quantity lake not a quality lake. But Don maybe doesn't agree.

[IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/duffy4/103_2887.jpg[/IMG


These ice-fishermen at Strubel seem to be enjoying a day fishing. Or are they really in their tents crying in their beer cause they can't catch a "trophy trout"?

[IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/duffy4/Strubelanglers2.jpg[/IMG


What the heck was this guy thinking, driving all the way to Strubel on a cold blizzardy day. Just to catch some pygmy fish?


[IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/duffy4/cold-windy-strubel09.jpg[/IMG


And what is with these guys? Don't they know that there are so few "really" trophy trout in Beaver lake that is not worth your while to wet a line there?

[IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/duffy4/dscn0341.jpg[/IMG


Why would "Grandpa" take his grandkids to Strubel? Doesn't he know it is way over stocked and will not produce a trophy trout for his grand daughters first fish?

[IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b174/duffy4/grampandkidsStrubel09.jpg[/IMG

Because something is better than nothing. Doesn't mean it can't be better though.

[pope]

Some folks are happy with a pilsner and a hotdog.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Geezle

Because something is better than nothing. Doesn't mean it can't be better though.

X2... duffy4...what photos don't speak of is the quality of the experience over time and also in comparison to the same persons perception of quality if they caught more 15-20 inch rainbows and kept a larger one. Today I met a family that the kids caught some small rainbows. I watched them having a good time cause they were at least catching something. Then they caught a 24 inch rainbow. All hell broke loose...they were cheering and hollering...then got it to the surface and mom and dad helped them return it to catch again. The kids were only probably 6, 8 and 10 and man o man were they grinning and bragging and totally thrilled. They did not mention anything about catching 5 - 9 inch rainbows just before it. So how would I define that photo showing the 9 inch rainbow they kept? In all honesty...if you caught 20 - 9 inch rainbows a day for 100 days straight...then one day you caught two 24 inchers...what would you remember or tell someone the next day?

But Don and Robin...while your bickering is sort of entertaining... Don...are you suggesting ALL lakes should be quality lakes...or just a select few. Would you agree that sharing and compromise is a reasonable expectation and that some lakes should be 5 a day?

I myself am somewhat curious your thoughts.

[SNAPFisher]

Geez...no wonder nothing gets done in this province. Everyone bickers in 5 different directions or with slight permeations on everything said. Gets old quick.

If Struble held and still can hold characteristics of a trophy lake, why not. It would be great to be able to go to any zone in Alberta and try your luck at the trophy lake(s) in the area, or, choose to go to catch and keep lake for numbers.

[Don Andersen]

Robin,

You win - you and others like you have succeeded in destroying what was very good fishing. Whether through neglect or stupidity is up to the people who get to view the remains.
Now the real question has to be - when can we get rid of you and others like you so that the fishery in this province will return to what it was less than 25 years ago. And I really like the typical F&G card --- "we gotta have all fisheries for them little kids". That kind of thinking has keep perch in Tay & Phyllis for 35 years.




And Sund.......

What ticks me off to no end is having to suck up to Govt employees to get them to quit destroying the lakes in this province.

I often wonder how I survived when I worked. I planned to leave the place better than or no worse than I found it. Wonder how many SRD types can say that!!!

Don

[duffy4]

No doubt anyone catching a bigger trout is happy with it. However for some people catching any trout can make them very happy. And that has been my experience with talking to anglers at Strubel for example.

But Don and Robin...while your bickering is sort of entertaining...

What? Don and I are not "bickering" We have known each other for years and are quite capable of disagreeing on an issue and exchanging views, without "bickering".

Presently there are X number of trout stocked lakes in Alberta. And there are <X number of "quality trout" or "trophy trout" lakes.

Some anglers want more of the later or as in this thread they want a certain lake changed to the later.

S&W make those kinds of decisions and often enough take public input into making their decisions.

Name calling and insulting SRD is probably not the best way to influence their decisions.



This fellow was quite happy with the "Quantity meat fishery" at Strubel lake.

[duffy4]

Woops! Maybe I spoke Too soon. Perhaps Don is bickering just a little.(and a bit of an extremist as well, I don't think anyone has said they would like to see ALL trout lakes as "family fishing lakes" especially F&W )


I guess F&W could try to turn back the clock 25 years.

Stop stocking fish till there was lots of feed and very few fish. Then restrict the number of anglers who could fish there (maybe allow a small number of draw tags that would reduce the # of angler hours to rates of 25 years ago)

Don might not be lucky enough to be able to fish there but the chosen few would probably catch some bigger fish.

And the average Alberta angler might want to stretch Don across and ant hill.

[Don Andersen]

Oh gee Robin

Another good example of SRD quality management.

Lots of extra fish means - - - lots of predators - great example of over-stocking. You should see the cormorants @ Police.

But Robin,

What you and SRD should do is look @ the lakes and see how many are using what places.

Twenty five years ago, Struble had a campground with upwards of 25 trailers on it all the time + another 3>6 along the road. Fishing pressure was heavy. Large fish were being caught. The stocking rate remained the same for years but the people disappeared. Now the stocking rate is raised again leaveing me thinking that SRD is aiming @ nobody showing up. Quality Lake fisheries are not all about getting away from people. The last decent lake that I'm aware of in this province is fished very heavily both summer and winter by people who kill everything. We caught fish + 7 lbs. there last summer and have caught fish upwards of 10 lbs. It isn't about just stocking - it's about making sure that the number of fish don't ramp up year after year. If I have my druthers, I'd send all the SRD fisheries people to Olds Ag. College. They just might learn something there about grazing. The 21,000 fish stocked @ Struble would have to be killed @ the rate of 15 limits each and every day when it was possible to fish to avoid the ramping effect.

Till SRD figures out they are not only wasting our money stocking a lake where few go but also destroying a lake in a province where fish are looking for some decent fishing.

And with that, I've got fishing rod manufacturing to do.


Don

[SNAPFisher]

Hey Robin.

Presently there are X number of trout stocked lakes in Alberta. And there are <X number of "quality trout" or "trophy trout" lakes.

That last part seems certain. Do you have a list or know where a post of the lakes in each region? Trophy ones that is. Being close to Edmonton I know of Muir. Are there others like it? Hate to keep flogging Muir but it is a prime example of something done right. I hope that kind of management becomes a bit more contagious for other regions.

[duffy4]

Snapfisher
You may have to contact the fisheries people in each region and ask them about their "quality trout" lakes. I would just as soon not mention any good fishing lakes that I know of as some folks get upset if lakes get lots of internet exposure.

I am not sure why Don thinks I work for SRD and that I may be speaking on their behalf. NOT THE CASE. And I can't believe he seems to be blaming SRD for the increase in fish predators.

I am just an angler in the Rocky area who has some knowledge of the lakes in the area. I don't mind catching big fish but I see the need for various sorts of fisheries. I sure don't want all lakes to be "family fishing lakes".

It seems to me that Strubel lake may be just fine as it is. If there would be more fish growing to a bigger size, that would be ok but how to achieve that and maintain it as a "family fishing lake", I'm not sure.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by duffy4

Snapfisher
You may have to contact the fisheries people in each region and ask them about their "quality trout" lakes. I would just as soon not mention any good fishing lakes that I know of as some folks get upset if lakes get lots of internet exposure.

Thanks. Not so smart of me to ask in hindsight.

Struble aside, still, I feel and a lot of others feel that trout could be managed in Alberta a hell of a lot better.

Thanks for your insights.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by SNAPFisher

Hey Robin.



That last part seems certain. Do you have a list or know where a post of the lakes in each region? Trophy ones that is. Being close to Edmonton I know of Muir. Are there others like it? Hate to keep flogging Muir but it is a prime example of something done right. I hope that kind of management becomes a bit more contagious for other regions.

I think you meant quality lakes. 20 inch rainbows are not "trophies". That would an entirely different program that what Muir is I believe. Don has some interesting points however that managing some not as put and take or quality lakes is a reasonable request for options. Trying to have a few catch and release lakes where they are not over stocked and/or harvested so that we can catch and release trophy 10 lbers plus is a great idea. I wonder how many lakes would even meet the requirement for size, location and productivity?

[packhuntr]

I dont know why guys keep mentioning "family fishing lakes". There is absolutely no question that in every situation (aside from these stocked trout lakes), that people have a much better experience with thier time on the water while fishing TROPHY/HEALTHY fisheries. We can fish any number of lakes in southern Alberta right now that contain a large diversity of fish species, and witness what improper management/predator extirpation has done to almost every single one of them. If you climbed into that same boat 20 years ago, she was show time, fun to be had for the entire family no matter the fish species persued. As far as these stocked trout waters go, I refuse to believe that anything other than a healthy fishery consisting of good age class representation is capable of producing QUALITY family recreation, and if that means praticing a little bit of C&R due to PROPER REGULATION, I guarantee you wont see young or old having a better time.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

And Sund.......

What ticks me off to no end is having to suck up to Govt employees to get them to quit destroying the lakes in this province.

I often wonder how I survived when I worked. I planned to leave the place better than or no worse than I found it. Wonder how many SRD types can say that!!!

Don

The old saying always holds true...you can lead more people to honey that to Sh&%. Everyone wants to be treated nice and with respect. Sometime ideology goes against ones goals. Sometimes that changes. Sometimes we prevent change with our own attitude. I know you have done a lot for many fisheries related projects in Alberta. I also know you have walked them through some tough obstacles. I have also had the fun. I think more of us need to be proactive and wade though the misinformation and tunnel vision that some people have. Based upon many comments on this board as well as some polls it should give you some comfort that we have turned a corner in this Province insofar as people thinking they have a sole ownership to the resource without any concern or thought for their fellow fishermen. That era of greed has passed...still holding on in a few corners but necessity means it can not survive. Options are required to meet all users/fishermen's desires in having a great fishery...not a poor one or a good one... Setting our sights higher as one poster mentioned is a great step in the right direction.

[Don Andersen]

Sundan...


The corner will be turned when I hear some Govt guy say out loud.

"This fishing is better in this province than it was 30 years go".

Curiously BC, Sask and Manitoba guys can say that.


Don

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

Sundan...


The corner will be turned when I hear some Govt guy say out loud.

"This fishing is better in this province than it was 30 years go".

Curiously BC, Sask and Manitoba guys can say that.


Don

I can't argue with you there.

[nof60]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

Robin,


What ticks me off to no end is having to suck up to Govt employees to get them to quit destroying the lakes in this province.

I often wonder how I survived when I worked. I planned to leave the place better than or no worse than I found it. Wonder how many SRD types can say that!!!

Don

Sorry Don but i gotta call BS. You worked in a sour gas plant and a fairly dirty one at that with a prill facilty. So before you tell us about what an environmentalist you are, tell us how many tonnes of lime your "work" had to dump on the surrounding forrests just to neutralize the crap it was belching into the air and into the area lakes. I worked in the same plant so you can avoid the company line with me.

As the father of 2 little kids I can tell you for them it is quantity. not quality. As an avid fly fisherman for me it is quality njot quantity. I think easily7 accesable lakes like struble should be high number family lakes and make the ones that are a little harder to get to quality CandR only lakes. That way we can all have our cake and eat it too.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by nof60

As the father of 2 little kids I can tell you for them it is quantity. not quality. As an avid fly fisherman for me it is quality njot quantity. I think easily7 accesable lakes like struble should be high number family lakes and make the ones that are a little harder to get to quality CandR only lakes. That way we can all have our cake and eat it too.

There is an evolution for flyfishermen. I didn't believe it when a buddy told me this years and years ago... I figured give me 50 rainbows a day between 9 and 14 inches and I would be happy till the day I day. While those numbers are generally hard to come by...once I had a chance to target and catch 3 lbers, then 8 lbers, then 10 - 18 lb rainbows...well my mind was changed.

If all you have to catch are small fish...then it is hard to understand and I know cause I was there once also.

Still catching is better than not catching so the fear is a lake with fewer fish but bigger can be intimidating.

When my kids hook a 8lb rainbow...they scream with excitement. When they catch a 9 inch rainbow...it just is not exciting. If you rarely fish...then size does not matter. If you fish more and more...an increasing challenge is usually sought after.

IMHO.

Sun

P.S. To be fair to Don...he is talking about focus on improving fishing in Alberta via fisheries management decisions...not environmental activism in general.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by duffy4

This fellow was quite happy with the "Quantity meat fishery" at Strubel lake.

Were starting to get a few otters in our local lakes and along with the Ospres and Eagles even our sucker population is starting to get stunted.

[nof60]

To Sund

My kids are 3 and 6 and any fish is great to them and their attention span is still too short if they are not catching lots. Plus it is great for them to catch a fish and be able to eat it. When they get a bit older and are able to appreciate catching fewer bigger fish I will take them with me to the lakes and streams I fish but for now the main aim is catching lots.

My point was that maybe the easy to get to lakes like struble can be managed as a family fishing lake and ones that r a little harder to get to could be managed for people who want to target bigger fish. And besides as stated the small fiash create more cormorants, otters etc. which are more fun to see for the kiddies than watching elite fly fishing tequniques. (My three year old has no apprecitaion for a perfect roll cast or a double haul).

And to be fair it was Don who mentioned how he left things better than he found them when he worked, which is utter nonsense considering the particular plant and area of the plant he worked in.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by nof60

To Sund

My kids are 3 and 6 and any fish is great to them and their attention span is still too short if they are not catching lots. Plus it is great for them to catch a fish and be able to eat it. When they get a bit older and are able to appreciate catching fewer bigger fish I will take them with me to the lakes and streams I fish but for now the main aim is catching lots.

My point was that maybe the easy to get to lakes like struble can be managed as a family fishing lake and ones that r a little harder to get to could be managed for people who want to target bigger fish. And besides as stated the small fiash create more cormorants, otters etc. which are more fun to see for the kiddies than watching elite fly fishing tequniques. (My three year old has no apprecitaion for a perfect roll cast or a double haul).

And to be fair it was Don who mentioned how he left things better than he found them when he worked, which is utter nonsense considering the particular plant and area of the plant he worked in.

another great point....my kids loved watching nature at work also.....herons, osprey, eagles

[Don Andersen]

nof60,

I really appreciate what you are saying and that is why when I was fish chairman of the local F&G ASSoc. I got the required permits, arranged the work, dug the holes, placed the toilets & policed the area for garbage for the Rocky Kids Pond.

What is really wrong with your thinking is that lots of fish mean high catch rates. Not true at all. I'm frankly surprised as a Fly angler you are unaware of that. But the Govt thinks much like you - the more fish, the more fish you can catch. WRONG!!!

Fish eat only when there is something to eat. They, unlike people, don't hurry here and there with no return on the energy investment. To do so is to die! They only get excited to eat when something is available. Over stocking means that most of the bugs are gone. Hence the fish are in a stupor till some groceries show up.

And you got it all wrong if you figure I want Struble turned into a Quality Lake as defined by the Govt. What I'd really like to see a limit of 100/person and don't you go home till you get your limit. That way, maybe, just maybe the numbers of fish within the lake will match the food resources.

Now don't wastre your time by typing a response. Get in your buggy and get @ 'er. Kill a sack full to make up for lousy management.

I hate to play the "remember when" card but here I think it is important. The lake had a campground on it with 25 or so campers there all the time. Between 5>10 boats on the lake daily. Ice fishermen all winter and I had days where I caught 40 or more with some of them exceeding 5 lbs. This went on for years till the campers dwindled away and the private campground was closed. Further - NO CAMPING signs were everywhere - people left, stocking rate remained the same - size of fish dropped, more people left and then to top off a real screw-up, the Govt in their wisdom raises the stocking numbers.


Decent fishing isn't about a Quality Lake Policy - it is about matching stocking numbers with kill numbers. All a Quality Lake Policy does is put one angler against another. What we should all shoot for is getting all lakes in Alberta back to what they can do. But the Govt likes a Quality Lake Policy. Least if gives them a sense of where they should go, now all we gotta do is kick start 'em.



Don

.

[pope]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

nof60,

What is really wrong with your thinking is that lots of fish mean high catch rates. Not true at all. I'm frankly surprised as a Fly angler you are unaware of that. But the Govt thinks much like you - the more fish, the more fish you can catch. WRONG!!!

Fish eat only when there is something to eat. They, unlike people, don't hurry here and there with no return on the energy investment. To do so is to die! They only get excited to eat when something is available. Over stocking means that most of the bugs are gone. Hence the fish are in a stupor till some groceries show up.

Don

.

I threw some trout in my pond for the first time last year, I went the other way and understocked it. I thought they would be easy to catch but found them frustrating at times (thats why they call it FISHING). It sure was great to see how they grew over the summer though, that was worth it. Also was interesting to see how they fight so much harder after growing a little bit. I relate quailty to how they fight - and bigger fish generally give a better show.