Gasoline price jump??? - Page 5

CBintheNorth · #**121** 04-18-2018, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You missed my point. Sorry. Maybe you got confused. Thread was about is there price gouging at the pump. Transportation is not free. They company pays.

I showed wholesale price plus taxes came to $1.20/litre.

At today’s price in Calgary that leaves 5 cents for transportation and profit.

Clearly not gouging.
If there is collusion. Lol. It is colluding to give gas away for no profit.

Yes, the thread is about gouging, but you and him are having a separate discussion and I don't necessarily agree with his points. That was what I was trying to say.

And there is no confusion here. I never said transportation is free. You really need to stop putting words in my mouth. Some of your assumptions you are stating as fact, and that isn't right.
I won't touch on whether 5 cents is good or bad profit, but you said that that is all that is left for profit and transportation costs. That isn't true. Transportation costs are accounted for in the wholesale price.

https://bizfluent.com/about-6375645-...e-prices-.html

In your example 5 cents is actually clear profit for the retailer.
I personally don't think that is high, some might.
Let me be perfectly clear- I don't think the retailers are raking in the cash. Other sectors of O&G are much more profitable.

But here's an example of what I think most consider gouging:

Petro-Can has a plant go down and therefore will have to increase production at their other facilities to make up for the shortage. This, understandably, costs money.
To make up for this they raise the price of their wholesale product $0.20/L.
In the same sales vicinity are Esso stations and Shell stations.
Now they have had absolutely no problems and their supply is good. However, they catch wind that Petro-Can had to raise their price so they have 2 choices:
1) Stay $0.20 cheaper and probably increase sales volume a bit.
2) Raise the price to match Petro-Can and sell the same volume as yesterday because they know people's driving habits typically don't change.

From what I have seen they always choose option #2.

Some will consider that good, fair, capitalist business.

Some will see it as gouging. I won't say always to "unfair" levels, but nonetheless, unnecessarily increasing an already profitable price.
And most people see it as happening for apparently no good reason other than "they can".

Sundancefisher · #**122** 04-18-2018, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Yes, the thread is about gouging, but you and him are having a separate discussion and I don't necessarily agree with his points. That was what I was trying to say.

And there is no confusion here. I never said transportation is free. You really need to stop putting words in my mouth. Some of your assumptions you are stating as fact, and that isn't right.
I won't touch on whether 5 cents is good or bad profit, but you said that that is all that is left for profit and transportation costs. That isn't true. Transportation costs are accounted for in the wholesale price.

https://bizfluent.com/about-6375645-...e-prices-.html

In your example 5 cents is actually clear profit for the retailer.
I personally don't think that is high, some might.
Let me be perfectly clear- I don't think the retailers are raking in the cash. Other sectors of O&G are much more profitable.

But here's an example of what I think most consider gouging:

Petro-Can has a plant go down and therefore will have to increase production at their other facilities to make up for the shortage. This, understandably, costs money.
To make up for this they raise the price of their wholesale product $0.20/L.
In the same sales vicinity are Esso stations and Shell stations.
Now they have had absolutely no problems and their supply is good. However, they catch wind that Petro-Can had to raise their price so they have 2 choices:
1) Stay $0.20 cheaper and probably increase sales volume a bit.
2) Raise the price to match Petro-Can and sell the same volume as yesterday because they know people's driving habits typically don't change.

From what I have seen they always choose option #2.

Some will consider that good, fair, capitalist business.

Some will see it as gouging. I won't say always to "unfair" levels, but nonetheless, unnecessarily increasing an already profitable price.
And most people see it as happening for apparently no good reason other than "they can".

Your example shows that companies are competitive and yes...want to make a profit. However they want to drive traffic to their stores so prices stay low.

However when you look at the numbers of said companies they are far from any definition of much more profitable. Please show me any company making "much more profitable" numbers.

The sheer fact there is very little mark up proves that competition is very high.

No one can say gouging.

I would disagree that the rack pricing is fixed the same for all deliveries and includes transportation costs. You may be mixing up that companies take possession of their wholesale quantities at the "gate" if they have their own delivery trucks but then still need to truck to their appropriate retail outlet. A retail business beside the distribution source will pay less cost than the gas station in Peace River getting product from the same place.

I posted the north American hub price the other day which sat at about $0.80 Cdn.

Here is PetroCans site.

https://www.petro-canada.ca/en/rack-...k-pricing.aspx

Today Calgary is sitting at about $0.82/litre.

Vancouver is $0.905

Nanaimo pays more due to transport costs and distance...at $0.921

Remember "rack price" is the wholesale price plus any transportation costs. overhead and profit costs.

The further away the higher the rack price.

Sundancefisher · #**123** 04-20-2018, 06:01 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gas-...ysis-1.4626692

Prices rising. Rail strike a factor. Other things as well.

Suzukisam · #**124** 04-20-2018, 08:16 AM

Take a look at the cranes at the refinery,s in Edmonton. All are shut down for maintenance. Not one flare stack going. Although they are still pumping the storage tanks are full but they are not refining

6.5 shooter · #**125** 04-20-2018, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gas-...ysis-1.4626692

Prices rising. Rail strike a factor. Other things as well.

Socialism doesn't come free...or cheap

Ken07AOVette · #**126** 04-20-2018, 01:07 PM

It's gouging. Greed at its finest.

There have been many cases of price fixing documented.

And then there is a few million dollar payout until the next one.

Sun may be Google proficient and may even have a vested interest but we ran a bulk station here for 28 years. I have some actual history in fuel pricing. Ever wonder why there are no gas wars anymore?

HVA7mm · #**127** 04-20-2018, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

It's gouging. Greed at its finest.

There have been many cases of price fixing documented.

And then there is a few million dollar payout until the next one.

Sun may be Google proficient and may even have a vested interest but we ran a bulk station here for 28 years. I have some actual history in fuel pricing. Ever wonder why there are no gas wars anymore?

Agreed. I was in Dawson Creek at Easter and the fuel prices were less than in Edmonton, yet they get their fuel from Edmonton refineries and have higher carbon levies/fuel tax. It all boils down to whatever the market is willing to bear I guess.

I'm not sure when the daily/weekly price fluctuations began to happen in Canada, as 20 years ago there were usually a few weeks or even a month or so before a change in fuel prices at the pump. Now in Edmonton you can see some stations change prices twice in one day. Like you said Ken I recall gas wars as well. Every time that a new station would open up in town, or another re-opened after a tank replacement/renovation they would set their prices lower to attract their old customers back. Costco is the closed thing to gas wars now, I'd hate to think what Edmonton prices would look like without them.

That being said, bottled water (an essentially free resource for most companies) is way more of a gouge. Heck for the price of 25 600ml bottles at a movie theatre or a gas station/convenience store, you could have enough water delivered to fill the average cistern.

fishtank · #**128** 04-20-2018, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

It's gouging. Greed at its finest.

There have been many cases of price fixing documented.

And then there is a few million dollar payout until the next one.

Sun may be Google proficient and may even have a vested interest but we ran a bulk station here for 28 years. I have some actual history in fuel pricing. Ever wonder why there are no gas wars anymore?

Price war only hurt profit better to set the rate in a back room meeting ...A lesson learned from Canadian telecommunications companies , Canada has one of the highest Cellular rate on the world .

Sundancefisher · #**129** 04-20-2018, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

It's gouging. Greed at its finest.

There have been many cases of price fixing documented.

And then there is a few million dollar payout until the next one.

Sun may be Google proficient and may even have a vested interest but we ran a bulk station here for 28 years. I have some actual history in fuel pricing. Ever wonder why there are no gas wars anymore?

So you admit to breaking the law. Did you mean price fixing or collusion? Do you know what the statute of limitations is?

When there are low margins why would you have a price war? When most profit is in store why drive away traffic.

I laugh cause you say you know cause you were in the bizz and apparently screwed over your customers. Now you won’t back that up with facts I am sure.

I showed facts. You obviously can’t refute them but love being on the Alberta oil company BC NDP loving Alberta jobs bashing fan club.

So be it.

Others read the emotional rhetoric backed with squadooch.
Now they have facts to base their anger away to just stuff sometimes cost what’s it costs.

Unless they visited your gas station for 28 years.

gordfishing · #**130** 04-20-2018, 05:13 PM

just drove to Manitoba and back

Calgary 128.9
Regina 114.9
Brandon 119.9

Its not the first time We are the highest of the three prairie provinces
and we don't have PST but that carbon tax gets us and how does
Notley help us

Sundancefisher · #**131** 04-20-2018, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HVA7mm

Agreed. I was in Dawson Creek at Easter and the fuel prices were less than in Edmonton, yet they get their fuel from Edmonton refineries and have higher carbon levies/fuel tax. It all boils down to whatever the market is willing to bear I guess.

I'm not sure when the daily/weekly price fluctuations began to happen in Canada, as 20 years ago there were usually a few weeks or even a month or so before a change in fuel prices at the pump. Now in Edmonton you can see some stations change prices twice in one day. Like you said Ken I recall gas wars as well. Every time that a new station would open up in town, or another re-opened after a tank replacement/renovation they would set their prices lower to attract their old customers back. Costco is the closed thing to gas wars now, I'd hate to think what Edmonton prices would look like without them.

That being said, bottled water (an essentially free resource for most companies) is way more of a gouge. Heck for the price of 25 600ml bottles at a movie theatre or a gas station/convenience store, you could have enough water delivered to fill the average cistern.

Why would anyone expect a gas war with a 3 cent a litre margin currently in Calgary?

I remember the old days however market fundamentals have changed.

kingrat · #**132** 04-20-2018, 05:16 PM

Ya but your saving the earth, and I'm sure wether we want to or not we (sask)will be soon enough to.

Sundancefisher · #**133** 04-20-2018, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordfishing

just drove to Manitoba and back

Calgary 128.9
Regina 114.9
Brandon 119.9

Its not the first time We are the highest of the three prairie provinces
and we don't have PST but that carbon tax gets us and how does
Notley help us

Unfortunately our taxes are higher here now.

HVA7mm · #**134** 04-20-2018, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Why would anyone expect a gas war with a 3 cent a litre margin currently in Calgary?

I remember the old days however market fundamentals have changed.

I don't recall expecting a gas war, simply reminiscing. And I do realize that market fundamentals have changed, but so have marketing strategies. I did fail to see how fuel in a province with a higher combined tax/carbon levy, that requires a 1200km round trip from Edmonton could be less expensive than in Edmonton, unless every gas station owner in that town was in the money losing business. Like I said before, it's what the market will bear for gasoline and almost every other commodity.

I'm not really that concerned as my fuel usage is pretty minimal compared to many others on this board. In all actuality seeing all of the fuel prices emblazoned across the city has more of a psychological on most people effect than anything else. (ie $5 coffees, $3 bottle of water don't seem to faze people near as much as fuel prices)

Kim473 · #**135** 04-21-2018, 04:43 AM

If there is no price fixing at all, explain why Costco is always at least 0.03 cents cheaper than everyone else. Explain why when Esso, petrol Can, and Shell raise prices by .010 to .015 cents one day and Costco stays the same. Then those big three drop back down to where they were before. Does Costco have a secret supply or something ? Or is Costco immune to supply and demand ? I'm sure Costco gets there gas from one of those big 3 refineries.

I don't need facts on paper, which can be manipulated in multiple ways to suit . I can see with my own eyes that there has to be some price fixing. How long did it take to catch on to the bread price fixing scam ?

raab · #**136** 04-21-2018, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim473

If there is no price fixing at all, explain why Costco is always at least 0.03 cents cheaper than everyone else. Explain why when Esso, petrol Can, and Shell raise prices by .010 to .015 cents one day and Costco stays the same. Then those big three drop back down to where they were before. Does Costco have a secret supply or something ? Or is Costco immune to supply and demand ? I'm sure Costco gets there gas from one of those big 3 refineries.

I don't need facts on paper, which can be manipulated in multiple ways to suit . I can see with my own eyes that there has to be some price fixing. How long did it take to catch on to the bread price fixing scam ?

There is a retail mark up, where they can adjust the price slightly as retailers. The wholesale prices are set by the States, so fluctuate depending on the Canadian dollar, inventory, and refining capacity.

If your upset about gas prices blame it on the taxes. We'd be somewhere between 80 and 90 cents per liter if we didn't have any taxes. As it stands the carbon tax added over 10 cents per liter in the last 2 years.

Sundancefisher · #**137** 04-21-2018, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raab

There is a retail mark up, where they can adjust the price slightly as retailers. The wholesale prices are set by the States, so fluctuate depending on the Canadian dollar, inventory, and refining capacity.

If your upset about gas prices blame it on the taxes. We'd be somewhere between 80 and 90 cents per liter if we didn't have any taxes. As it stands the carbon tax added over 10 cents per liter in the last 2 years.

Exactly. Plus gasoline is not owned by the consumer until purchased. If. A retailer wants to make 5 cents a litre profit instead of 3 cents it is their right to see if anyone will buy.

In turn consumer can choose. If one company has a lower price and they are scooping too many customers away from another then they need to assess should they drop the price down or not.

If a competitor raises their price they can decide to either keep the price low and try and scoop customers or raise their price to try and get that little extra profit.

Same as if a company has inventory left at a lower price they can keep price steady or raise it to try and garner that tiny little extra profit.

People seem to think they deserve extraordinary power over retailers to make them lose money even.

Consumers exert maximum power with where they spread their money.

6.5 shooter · #**138** 04-21-2018, 09:50 AM

OK just came back from a trip to the states...Nevada $285 a gallon.....California..$378 a gallon......Socialism doesn't come cheap......All your "free" stuff costs you a lot of money

Sundancefisher · #**139** 04-21-2018, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

OK just came back from a trip to the states...Nevada $285 a gallon.....California..$378 a gallon......Socialism doesn't come cheap......All your "free" stuff costs you a lot of money

So converted from US $ / gallon to US $ / litre divide by 3.785 =

Nevada $0.74 US per litre

California $0.98 US per litre

Converted to Cdn =

Nevada $0.95 Cdn per litre.

California $1.25 Cdn per litre

Credit card fees additionally can add about 2%

California is socialist. Lille high taxes like here.

Thanks for the comparison.

thenaturalwoodsman · #**140** 04-21-2018, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

So converted from US $ / gallon to US $ / litre divide by 3.785 =

Nevada $0.74 US per litre

California $0.98 US per litre

Converted to Cdn =

Nevada $0.95 Cdn per litre.

California $1.25 Cdn per litre

Credit card fees additionally can add about 2%

California is socialist. Lille high taxes like here.

Thanks for the comparison.

Great Falls $0.64 USD per litre. Also beer is cheap it is worth the trip for both.

Sundancefisher · #**141** 04-21-2018, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenaturalwoodsman

Great Falls $0.64 USD per litre. Also beer is cheap it is worth the trip for both.

Bogus. Fake news

US beer is not better than Canadian craft beer. Lol

bessiedog · #**142** 04-21-2018, 06:24 PM

Anyone ever wonder if there’s a Calgary version of AnalyticsIQ....?

I just wonder sometimes.

sewerrat · #**143** 04-24-2018, 08:56 AM

Yikes gas is up at $133.9 here in the Red Deer area.

Scott h · #**144** 04-24-2018, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gordfishing

just drove to Manitoba and back

Calgary 128.9
Regina 114.9
Brandon 119.9

Its not the first time We are the highest of the three prairie provinces
and we don't have PST but that carbon tax gets us and how does
Notley help us

Bought Gas in Vernon for $117.9
Prices are all over the place right now but the one thing you can count on is a big jump before a long weekend. Anyone that doesn't believe that the companies don't play with the prices is .....

Sundancefisher · #**145** 04-24-2018, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott h

Bought Gas in Vernon for $117.9
Prices are all over the place right now but the one thing you can count on is a big jump before a long weekend. Anyone that doesn't believe that the companies don't play with the prices is .....

Spike is due to increased driving and increased demand. Anything that increases or decrease demand and/or supply impacts price.

Economics 101

ghostguy6 · #**146** 04-24-2018, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim473

If there is no price fixing at all, explain why Costco is always at least 0.03 cents cheaper than everyone else. Explain why when Esso, petrol Can, and Shell raise prices by .010 to .015 cents one day and Costco stays the same. Then those big three drop back down to where they were before. Does Costco have a secret supply or something ? Or is Costco immune to supply and demand ? I'm sure Costco gets there gas from one of those big 3 refineries.

I don't need facts on paper, which can be manipulated in multiple ways to suit . I can see with my own eyes that there has to be some price fixing. How long did it take to catch on to the bread price fixing scam ?

I once got hired to do an investigation right beside a Costco where I was able to watch to gas pumps (unofficially) and there were two things I noticed 1) the price stayed the same from the time they opened to the time they closed and 2) their price of gas only went up the following morning after there was a fuel delivery. I think Costco sell's their gas at the price they paid for it unlike the other stations that charge what ever market value is.

Glad I filled up at Costco last night at $1.12/L when everyone else was at $1.32L

Sundancefisher · #**147** 04-24-2018, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostguy6

I once got hired to do an investigation right beside a Costco where I was able to watch to gas pumps (unofficially) and there were two things I noticed 1) the price stayed the same from the time they opened to the time they closed and 2) their price of gas only went up the following morning after there was a fuel delivery. I think Costco sell's their gas at the price they paid for it unlike the other stations that charge what ever market value is.

Glad I filled up at Costco last night at $1.12/L when everyone else was at $1.32L

You are doing the exact right thing all consumers should be doing. That is buying at the cheapest place whenever and wherever they can.

That is the power of the consumer.

Sundancefisher · #**148** 04-24-2018, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostguy6

I think Costco sell's their gas at the price they paid for it unlike the other stations that charge what ever market value is.

Unless you knew...

1. Starting volume in the sales tank
2. Total volume sold out of the sales tank
3. Total delivery volume into sales tank

It is just a guess if they depleted their whole tank and started fresh or just getting a top up.

They could just have a corporate policy of one price change per day.

Sundancefisher · #**149** 04-24-2018, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kim473

If there is no price fixing at all, explain why Costco is always at least 0.03 cents cheaper than everyone else. Explain why when Esso, petrol Can, and Shell raise prices by .010 to .015 cents one day and Costco stays the same. Then those big three drop back down to where they were before. Does Costco have a secret supply or something ? Or is Costco immune to supply and demand ? I'm sure Costco gets there gas from one of those big 3 refineries.

I don't need facts on paper, which can be manipulated in multiple ways to suit . I can see with my own eyes that there has to be some price fixing. How long did it take to catch on to the bread price fixing scam ?

You have explained zero evidence of price fixing. You did explain very well the highly competitive retail market. One company raises their price hoping for a bit more profit on the already small margin. Another company looked out the store window and saw the price rise and said “dam...I could really use the extra one and a half cent profit. They raised their price.

Meanwhile Costco says I get people coming over to put $50 in their tank and pop inside to buy a lasagne and end up spending $700. I’m going to keep the price down and make my money on the store sales.

Company one see more people going to Costco gas and lowers their price. Company 2 sees the same thing and lowers their price.

Another great day in the wonderful world of supply and demand.

Scott h · #**150** 04-28-2018, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Spike is due to increased driving and increased demand. Anything that increases or decrease demand and/or supply impacts price.

Economics 101

Actually it went up to $1.47 almost over night. Soooo.....