Thoughts on open perch limits!

[YeeHaw]

Coming from Edmonton, I have and continue to fish the local trout lakes that are over flowing with stunted perch,such as Hasse, and Spring. Both fish and wildlife and the general public have both agreed that this is a problem, so insted of killing of the lakes and restocking them, why do they not have an open limit on the perch to thin them out? Granted there will be an impact on the trout population due to possable over harvesting, but what is better a few trout, or all the trout? What's your opinion?

[GummyMonster]

Morning,
You make a good point,y.h. I have wondered about the same thing as a tool to manage these lakes that the perch have been introduced.
I know there is big debate about this problem, and as far as my opinion fly's, Super expensive methods like the retonin poisoning is not a sensible option(from my understanding the tab for even a few medium sized lakes could hit seven figures).Especially when there isn't a concrete guarantee it will fully wipe out the lake! Too many other places for this size of monies to be used.
I know that our fishery managers ARE trying, but IMO, these new laws to prevent the bucket brigade won't be that effective.People break laws with drastic consequences everyday, with little regard for the punishments.(ie - drinking and driving). These new laws that prevent catching illegally stocked perch also does zero to repair damage already done.
The idea you propose seems very viable.Is there are other ways to reduce perch numbers, must be (I don't want to hijack your thread, so I will start a seperate thread regarding them).
The idea you propose would be the least costly to implement, which increases it's worth right there.
And to those who will say that the stunted perch are too hard to clean,not worth the effort,etc., I have done many 4 to 5 inch perch with the banana peel method and it works great.(I also have a crippled up hand and arthritis,so no excuses people! )
And the best part, catchin small perch and thinnin the herd still = FISHING =FUN = yay.
Sorry if a bit longwided this morning.

Have a good day,EH!
Ken

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by GummyMonster

Morning,
You make a good point,y.h. I have wondered about the same thing as a tool to manage these lakes that the perch have been introduced.
I know there is big debate about this problem, and as far as my opinion fly's, Super expensive methods like the retonin poisoning is not a sensible option(from my understanding the tab for even a few medium sized lakes could hit seven figures).Especially when there isn't a concrete guarantee it will fully wipe out the lake! Too many other places for this size of monies to be used.
I know that our fishery managers ARE trying, but IMO, these new laws to prevent the bucket brigade won't be that effective.People break laws with drastic consequences everyday, with little regard for the punishments.(ie - drinking and driving). These new laws that prevent catching illegally stocked perch also does zero to repair damage already done.
The idea you propose seems very viable.Is there are other ways to reduce perch numbers, must be (I don't want to hijack your thread, so I will start a seperate thread regarding them).
The idea you propose would be the least costly to implement, which increases it's worth right there.
And to those who will say that the stunted perch are too hard to clean,not worth the effort,etc., I have done many 4 to 5 inch perch with the banana peel method and it works great.(I also have a crippled up hand and arthritis,so no excuses people! )
And the best part, catchin small perch and thinnin the herd still = FISHING =FUN = yay.
Sorry if a bit longwided this morning.

Have a good day,EH!
Ken

If you had open limits...every lake would get stocked with Perch. Think about it.

Rotenone would cost Lake Sundance $40K. We spend 20K a year to stock. Therefore 2 years stocking would pay for it. It is cost effective.

[huntsfurfish]

I agree with Sundancefisher.

Do not reward the bucket biologists!

Treat them like eco/bio terrorists - They should not benefit from their actions.

Bucket biology has been an ongoing problem. This could finally be a solution.

[DarkAisling]

From what I've been reading, it looks like we won't be able to harvest perch from any illegally stocked lake this year ("The Good, The Bad, and The Perch" from this month's AO).

While I hope that will stop the vandalizing of additional lakes, I hate to think what will happen to the ones already affected.

[mikeym]

the other problem with poisoning the lake is that the bucket brigade will just re-stock the lake in a couple of years once they hear about it and the problem will start all over again. you will have a few good years of trout fishing, then a couple of years of good perch fishing, then back to the current problem.

i don't think there is any good solution to this problem. even with take all you can fish limit, you will never wipe out the perch or really even thin them out enough to make a dent. they breed like rats. you could try putting jack in there to thin them out, but then they will also wipe out the trout fingerlings also. making it a zero limit on perch just admits defeat and the lake is basically ruined for any type of fishing for trout or perch.

short of catching one of the bucket brigade in action and making an example of him in the courts to discourage everyone else (highly unlikely and probably would not work), no matter what SRD does, the lake is basically ruined for life.

unforetunetly the damage is done and really the only way to stop this is by setting up private lakes with limited access to a select few to stop this problem.

not a solution i want to see implemented.

rgds
Mike

[slingshotz]

The government has successfully used angler harvest to manage populations of Brookies in Quirk Creek to allow the bulls to grow. I'm not sure how well this would work for lakes. In theory if perch were unlimited harvest at specific lakes and people followed the rules it should work, but it only takes one idiot to screw it up for everyone else....

[AK47]

I do not believe it is only "bucket brigade's" fault. There are other methods for fish to get introduced into lakes they never been before. I think opening some lakes for unlimited perch fishing is not a bad idea. Or at least increasing limit to 25.

[aulrich]

Ducks can cause it too, think of all those lakes on the Canadian Shield with no connection to another body of water, but they have fish.

My understanding is that some fish eggs are sicky and if they are weed layers it can get onto duck feet and they can transport them to another body of water.

But buckets sound more likely

[farmboy_ab]

Realistically why would you want no limits. When 15 6 inchers are more than enough to make a meal for my family of four and I can catch 15 per fisherman every day as long as we are eating them. Seems fairly unlimited already. Zero is not going to make anyone happy except PETA I do not have a solution but think that decisions regarding specific lakes should have localized public input.(townhalls, mailed surveys etc.)

[Drewski Canuck]

What has to be done is supervised culling. Simply enough, a weekend "have ater" with the local F & G supervising the one and only rule on the lake: Nothing goes back. Small ones can be disposed of in 45 gallon drums to be given to the local pig farmer, and take what you want, WITH A RECEIPT OF LOCATION OF CATCH, DATE, AND NUMBER FROM THE F & G SUPERVISOR, for the fishermen.

We will never get rid of the perch, but we will knock the numbers back. Make it a derby with highest recorded catch winning a new fish finder, thus incentive to register and report. The results will be cheap control.

Drewski

[Gerry]

I agree it's a problem, however something nobody's mentioned.
What are you going to do with all those 4 in. and under perch when you do catch them, make a sandwich??, and who's going to clean them??. Poisoning the lake would have to happen for at least 2 years for it to take properly, I doubt that you'd get all the fish
in one poisoning.

[howlin]

what about opening it up for net fishing ,mabye even commercial?anything is better then poisoning.

[goldscud]

Rotenone info:
http://www.fisheries.org/units/roten...nonebroweb.pdf

[Izumi]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

From what I've been reading, it looks like we won't be able to harvest perch from any illegally stocked lake this year ("The Good, The Bad, and The Perch" from this month's AO).

While I hope that will stop the vandalizing of additional lakes, I hate to think what will happen to the ones already affected.

This regulation is already in place. You are already not allowed. Look at the 'Important changes for 2009' section in the regulations.

"To reduce the incentive of illegal stocking the retention of pike and perch in waters stocked with trout or grayling is illegal unless specified in water body specific regulations."

[howlin]

good pr ,i just dont agree with poisoning(too many what ifs)that info almost read like the army info for agent orange before they found out it was damb near melting people.

[lifesaflyin]

easy. shut it down. mother nature has a way of fixing things when left undisturbed.

[Okotokian]

They just need to catch ONE guy illegally stocking, then use that new law and make him pay a couple hundred K to rectify the problem. Just one. Love to see some guy have to sell his home, truck, etc. to cover the cost.

[YeeHaw]

In the post's there was talk of introducing pike to the lake. I personaly think that is crazy. If you look at mink lake as a prime example, it has a reasonable population of pike, but the perch are the same way. I have to agree with Drewski. Have a fish derby on a weekend, make it a P.R. event for the srd, have a few dozen people out there teaching young kids ,that do not get the oppertunity to fish how to. Could even go to extreams and have a food bank drive while your at it, 1 donation per hole. Have the fish and donations go to the local soup kitchens or food bank. Anglers giving to the comunity. win win situation I think.

[Joe Fehr]

Shut down the aeration systems for a couple years and let the winter kill take its toll to knock down the numbers then see what is left.

Would this not help the problem as most of these lakes are aerated to keep fish alive right?

[YeeHaw]

I know that Hasse, is not airated, but Spring lake is. They shut down the air on Spring in 06, and it did have some effect on the perch, but they came back thick and quick.

[Badback]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Rotenone would cost Lake Sundance $40K. We spend 20K a year to stock. Therefore 2 years stocking would pay for it. It is cost effective.

Dude don't ever say rotenone and Lake Sundance in the same sentence.....Break up the word Rotenone and you have roten one...

[GummyMonster]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

If you had open limits...every lake would get stocked with Perch. Think about it.

Rotenone would cost Lake Sundance $40K. We spend 20K a year to stock. Therefore 2 years stocking would pay for it. It is cost effective.

I did think about it, and then I typed it.Maybe you should have learned a bit of tact along with all your biology lessons. I never said it was a perfect plan for all of alberta's lakes from now on. It IS a viable option in my opinion, for lakes that already have these unwanted perch in them, not the only option , but one of them.
You want to poison your wonderful private lake, go ahead. $40k plus per lake x's dozens of public lakes equals what dollar figure? With no guarantee of success, and no real way of preventing the next introduction??
I understand not wanting to reward people for illegal introduction, but what do you do ? Just leave these lakes , and hope that nature kills it? When, 3,4 10 years down the road?Only to reintroduce the non native trout, only to start the whole cycle over?Mr sundance, if YOU think about it, and solve all these problems, I will gladly follow along.
Have a good night all,
Ken

[WayneChristie]

make perch legal bait for pike, that will take care of some of them anyways

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by aulrich

Ducks can cause it too, think of all those lakes on the Canadian Shield with no connection to another body of water, but they have fish.

My understanding is that some fish eggs are sicky and if they are weed layers it can get onto duck feet and they can transport them to another body of water.

But buckets sound more likely

Stocking by birds...not possible. If it was likely then every lake in North America would have every fish species in it after millions of years of bird migrations. It is an old wives tale.

In studies of fish distribution there are tributaries either permanent or intermittent that allows migrations...other than people of course.

For land locked lakes, you will often need to look back to glacier days when species distribution happened when water flows were different, water levels different etc.

Otherwise...a lake with no tribs and no fish...when fish appear it is because of people.

[Steven Noel]

Not to hijack, but getting caught illegaly stocking perch or otherwise should result in the requirment of paying the tab to remove them... and then maybe 10 - 15 grand in a Steven fund.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by GummyMonster

I did think about it, and then I typed it.Maybe you should have learned a bit of tact along with all your biology lessons. I never said it was a perfect plan for all of alberta's lakes from now on. It IS a viable option in my opinion, for lakes that already have these unwanted perch in them, not the only option , but one of them.
You want to poison your wonderful private lake, go ahead. $40k plus per lake x's dozens of public lakes equals what dollar figure? With no guarantee of success, and no real way of preventing the next introduction??
I understand not wanting to reward people for illegal introduction, but what do you do ? Just leave these lakes , and hope that nature kills it? When, 3,4 10 years down the road?Only to reintroduce the non native trout, only to start the whole cycle over?Mr sundance, if YOU think about it, and solve all these problems, I will gladly follow along.
Have a good night all,
Ken

LOL. I was not intending to be so stark...just ran off quick to watch the Olympics. Anyways...my point is it is not an option if it does not solve the problem.

Firstly when looking at a lake like ours...removing 40,000 perch a year does not seem to work so well...so far.

Secondly, my experience shows that while people enjoy the novelty of killing lots of fish...the novelty runs out after the first 1000 - 6 inch perch. A harvest of massive numbers is required of which angling alone would not solve.

Thirdly, allowing an unlimited harvest puts people in the system driving around with lots of perch and no way for F&W to control where they came from. Illegal harvest of native lakes will occur. That is a problem that would be created.

Yes...you are right it is a solution in a perfect world to allow unlimited harvest. Unfortunately under the scope of what we have to work with while it is an idea...it is neither practical nor workable.

One solution that may be practical is to allow local Fish and Game associations to net perch to reduce numbers and donate to food banks etc. So long as people can't benefit from the perch it takes away incentive to stock them. Problem is this would entail 100's of volunteer man hours to harvest 6 inch fish. If you let volunteers benefit...you may unfortunately benefit the person stocking and make them stock more.

As for rotenone...like every idea...there are draw backs. Public perception is one but the primary one is can you get a successful 100% kill. If there are springs, tribs, beaver dams, muskeg, floating veg, really deep water etc. you may reduce your chance to successfully kill them all. Therefore in those lakes you may not want to try. If you go and say I won't fix the problem because vandals will do it again they have won a major victory. If we thought that way about graffiti it would be a shame. Our cities spend hundreds of thousands a year on graffiti and they do write over it again. Maybe however it is just education that is needed to stop these idiots from doing it again. Plus a toll free hot line with a $500,000 reward for their capture and a conviction of a $500,000 fine plus jail time plus community service.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by YeeHaw

I know that Hasse, is not airated, but Spring lake is. They shut down the air on Spring in 06, and it did have some effect on the perch, but they came back thick and quick.

If perch have problems living or reproducing and their numbers get significantly reduced...you can stall off stunting problems and maintain a longer period of bigger perch. May have value to creating a perch fishery...but does not solve the problem long term or regarding all illegal stocked lakes.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by YeeHaw

In the post's there was talk of introducing pike to the lake. I personally think that is crazy. If you look at mink lake as a prime example, it has a reasonable population of pike, but the perch are the same way. I have to agree with Drewski. Have a fish derby on a weekend, make it a P.R. event for the srd, have a few dozen people out there teaching young kids ,that do not get the opportunity to fish how to. Could even go to extremes and have a food bank drive while your at it, 1 donation per hole. Have the fish and donations go to the local soup kitchens or food bank. Anglers giving to the community. win win situation I think.

Problem is angling will just not be enough to fix the problem or control it. Depending upon the lake you could have 500,000 to 5 million perch in it. With exponentially successful reproduction every year the average lake even with increased angler harvest would require thousands of angler days catching 1000 per day to dent it. Then people will not kill the smaller ones and/or effectively catch them and they just self populate. A stunted lake's perch average 4 inches and max at 6 inches on average. Those are very small perch to:

1) convince people to take the time to catch
2) have success catching cause they are very small

[lifesaflyin]

hmm anyone up for a dynamite fishing tourny?