e collar question.

[coolpete1]

i want to pick an ecollar for my gsp with gps and vibrate. he is kinda sensitive so i won't zap him , anyone know what and where i should be looking? i was at cabela's but had know idea what i was looking at.
the collar is because off leash he takes off and won't come when called so i need to find him ,i figure the vibrate will get his attention off what ever he's after long enough to hear me.

[Newf]

Check out collar clinic in the US. They have a wide variety. Should be able to find something on there to suit your needs.
http://www.collarclinic.com/

[uncle buck]

The main brands are dogtra and tri tronics. Have a look at their web sites and u should be able to find a model. Sport dog and garmin make combined collars but I don't think they have the vibrate feature... You will want electricity at some point anyway- it doesn't need to be set very high to work

[aulrich]

Yes e-collars don't need to be 50,000 volts of compliance. For yard training mine is set to a level you can hardly feel in your hand.

gundogsupply has tons of them and feature breakdown as well, I understand there is a GPS place in Calgary that sells tri-tronics stuff.

That cool Garmin collar with the GPS is not legal in Canada at the moment (Radio frequency issue)

[densa44]

The name will soon disappear, Garmin now owns Tri tronics. They are the standard against which all others are measured.

I had a dogta bark collar on my dog and it began to randomly shock her, when I got it off of the dog and went to pick it up off the ground it shocked me. I'll never use another one.

[wwbirds]

Is not an e collar issue but rather a training and obedience issue. 100 foot check cord is $18.

[Phild]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Is not an e collar issue but rather a training and obedience issue. 100 foot check cord is $18.

X2 if your dog is not collar conditioned and knows why he is being corrected then there is no reason to use it on him. Vibrate is not a correction in my mind but a reminder "hey you are not listening"

Hell I would even put him on a 30ft check cord and work on whistle sits and here commands until he is golden. Mine sometimes will ignore a verbal here but she damn well knows that whistle means haul ass back to my side. Mind you there are times when she is so jacked up that the sits and here whistles are harder for her to comply to but she still does.

LOL just ask Pixel Shooter when I had to make her sit at her first hunt test becasue of poor handling and her lead getting drug out 30 feet in the field. I blew a whistle sit and had to walk out to get it. If she broke I would have fialed I bet but she knew that the whistle meant sit untill told otherwise.

Back to basics with a check cord first then when it is 100% CC your dog and then use the collar properly.

Later
Phil

[Phild]

Call Sue she is awesome and Canadain
http://store.dakotacreekretrievers.c...egory_s/23.htm

[bosshog]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Is not an e collar issue but rather a training and obedience issue. 100 foot check cord is $18.

Haha. Was just going to post thisthat Rob said to me about my dog when disucssing eCollars. Check cord and a bit of time pay off in the long run for sure. Sage advice from an expeirenced trainer.

[BC HUNTER]

The collar clinic is great! They have rebuilt collars at not
a bad price. The owner was or is the son of the guy that
started Tritronicks we have been using them for years.

[Winch101]

A rope dont cut it on a young dog in the heat of the battle...

You need to get his attention quick

Pheasants in their favourite habitat , you need it all going on.

That collar is a lifesaver.....voice saver .....no dog guy should be

Without one...but please tie it around your arm and zap yourself

On every level ....just so you know.....That buzz feature is invaluable .

[coolpete1]

i'm pretty green at this hunting dog training thing ,i will pick up a check cord and whistle this weekend and a book i guess , i really didn't want to zap him ,i just dont want him to get lost or ran over.this dog will be a hunting machine if i can get it right.
thanks for the advise and i'll take any more you guys wish to offer on this.

[wwbirds]

You cant teach anything with an ecollar the command has to already be learned for the reinforcement or the escape avoidance to work. if you use it to punish the dog for not listening you don't understand the concept of teach train and only then test the dog. You teach the dog the command "heel" "here" or "come" whatever you prefer you then train the dog to listen and obey that command regardless of distractions or distance. There are no shortcuts to training the basic commands. For the dog to understand obedience is not optional you must have a way to change his behavior if he ventures in the wrong direction while under command. The check cord brings him to you the collar punishment can go either way. he can come of he can bolt. You don't want to teach a young dog to bolt or cause a bad experience in the field he may later associate with hunting.

[Phild]

How old is this dog? Where is he at in training? Get a good program and follow it there are lots out there. I book is a good start but by no means are they the answer they are an addition, a DVD program is great.

Young pup try Hillmans puppy DVD as a good start, I do not know much about pointing dogs but I would assume all the basics would be the same. As WW said the collar is not a punishing tool it is a reinforcing tool for a command that is all ready taught, learned, and known by the dog.

An example is my dog knows sit, I taught this she demonstrates she knows this by anyone telling her to sit and she does, she sits on a whistle, she sit when I point to the ground with one finger. If I blow the whistle and tell her to sit...that is two commands she knows and if she does not sit then I give the command again sit.......followed by the lowest stimulus that will get her attention and make her sit to avoid that stimulus. I do not want to shock her, burn her or zap her. She knows if she sits promptly on every occasion she will not get the stimulus but if she doesn't it comes and to stop it she needs to sit. Clear as mud? Pick up a Collar Conditioning DVD as well Mike Lardy.

Flip side if I tell her to do a back flip which she has not been taught and I give her a stimulus she has not way of knowing how to turn it off. I can't say back flip and keep hitting the button expecting a re****.

Good luck, go to Retreivers On line it is a good site
Phil

[Versatile]

Originally Posted by aulrich

Yes e-collars don't need to be 50,000 volts of compliance. For yard training mine is set to a level you can hardly feel in your hand.

gundogsupply has tons of them and feature breakdown as well, I understand there is a GPS place in Calgary that sells tri-tronics stuff.

That cool Garmin collar with the GPS is not legal in Canada at the moment (Radio frequency issue)

The collar is legal. The use is illegal. Even then people are still using them. There sint a dog collar police and the band(s) they use go public in 2014.

[Versatile]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Is not an e collar issue but rather a training and obedience issue. 100 foot check cord is $18.

100 isnt needed. Your just going to get yourself and dog all tangled up.

If the dog wont do it at 30 feet he isnt going to do it at 300.

[M.C. Gusto]

Lcsupply for everything. best service i have had.

Been burned twice by the collar clinic on warranaty. they wont get my buisness again.

[aulrich]

coolpete1 how old is the dog, sub 1 year i would say start with

How to Help Gun Dogs Train Themselves, by Joan Bailey.

For training here are a couple
http://www.gundogsupply.com/training-with-mo.html
http://navhdastore.org/thetrainingan...untingdog.aspx
The DD puppy manual but it works for all vdogs
http://altmoor.com/catalog/BookVideo.html

Videos
Perfect Start / Perfect Finish
The Silent System

http://www.gundogsupply.com/poindogvid.html

For e-collar conditioning I use the George Hickox video but that was after 1 year and first hunting season.

Be careful, the pointing dog need to be away from you to be useful, you don't want to zap his range early, even the over use of the cc. I have understood it's a GSP and not a lab.

OK and I have to wave the flag again unfortunately Wildrose NAVHDA Has basically finished for the year, but it's likely we will get started in Feb doing OB and such.

Originally Posted by Versatile

The collar is legal. The use is illegal. Even then people are still using them. There sint a dog collar police and the band(s) they use go public in 2014.

Yes but gundogsupply won't ship them across the border and I am not going to risk that much cash on shipping it to my sister and mailed to me , just to have Canada Customs confiscate it.

[Versatile]

Why would they confiscate it? It not illegal to own.

There is a GPS place online in Canada that sells them. I forget the name but came across it in the spring when we were looking.

[Erik]

Originally Posted by coolpete1

I want to pick an ecollar with gps and vibrate. anyone know what and where i should be looking?

I think you are looking for one of these:

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-t...rod107225.html

My recommendation is to purchase from Bass Pro online during one of their sales with free shipping, which is usually every week. There are other stores that sell them but you will either get dinged by ridiculous duties/taxes, or pay a higher sticker price. Bass Pro brokers its stuff across the border for a low fee, like $3.95 or something lovely like that. It outweighs saving $50 from other online retailers, because like I said you will pay through the nose at the border. Any Canadian store that has them (and they shouldn't) will make you pay through the nose.

They are not technically legal in Canada until sometime mid-year 2014, but getting it across the border is not jeopardized. The MURS bandwiths will become legal in Canada sometime next year for those without a license, last I heard.

Here is some more on that:
http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst...g/sf09627.html

[Erik]

Originally Posted by Versatile

Why would they confiscate it? It not illegal to own.

Under current legislation it would require a radio license from Industry Canada to operate a MURS device, which is only granted to specific applicants with specific, approved devices at this time.


This lays out the framework for regulation and restriction of licences and of the aparatus:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...age-4.html#h-6


This lays out the punishments for contravention of those regulations:
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/a...age-7.html#h-7

This is just from quick inspection and is not a legal opinion; I am not sure if it is totally applicable, but most of the law falls under section 6 of the Radiocommunications Act:

d) contravenes or fails to comply with a regulation, where no punishment is prescribed by regulations made under paragraph 6(1)(r) for that contravention or failure to comply,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and is liable, in the case of an individual, to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year, or to both, or, in the case of a corporation, to a fine not exceeding twenty-five thousand dollars.

Marginal note:Idem
(2) Every person who contravenes or fails to comply with subsection 8(5) or (6) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and is liable to a fine not exceeding five thousand dollars.

That said, Canada Border Services does not pay attention to such detail. Whether or not the device is prohibited is a grey area for me, and my guess is that it is not prohibited to own it, just to sell it in Canada and use it in Canada without a license. So it does not really fall to Border Services to confiscate this device, and do you really care whether the store contravenes the regulations on the sale of such a device? It doesn't seem likely that the device will get confiscated, but rather the store would get a fine, if caught. Risk is on them, not on you.

Again, this is not a suggestion of action, nor an opinion of law, just my speculation about the situation from the best evidence that I can gather.

[Versatile]

That's exactly what I said above. Not illegal to own but illegal to use.

[Erik]

Originally Posted by Versatile

That's exactly what I said above. Not illegal to own but illegal to use.

Initially mistook your post. Just added more ammo to your argument.

[coolpete1]

he's 2.5 years old , i got him a couple months ago so i couldn't start him as a pup.he listens well on leash but off leash he does what he wants and i can't catch him to correct him , i like the 30 foot leash idea to start training him to come when called and the collar was to be to get his attention only , i have no interest in punishing him for anything , he is a great dog and i care too much for him to even think about hurting him to make him listen. he has alot of hunting instinct and he shows it , i just have to learn how to put it to use. again , thanks for all the advise and please keep it coming.

[32-40win]

Collar use seems to be a bit of a debate, there are those who love it, and those who hate it. There are trainers who will not use them, and those who believe in them wholeheartedly. I have one for my dog, I have put it on him, haven't used it on him yet. Every time I do, he doesn't seem to get into a situation, where I can make good use of it as a deterrent, so far. And yet, with patience, he has changed some of the ways he behaves, to suit the criteria I have been working on, with him. There are non hunting trainers that have some great ways of explaining dog behavior and how to counteract it also. Susan Garrett trains obstacle course dogs, very good at explaining, "this" is a mistake to do "this" with the dog, avoid doing "this", and "this" is how to do it, without making that mistake. She is out of Ontario, and has vids that are worth buying. There is some of her stuff that is very applicable to a hunting dog.
Robert Milner is one who will not use a collar, used to, changed his way of doing things though, retrained the FEMA dogs and trainers after 9-11, with his "newer" way of training. Makes a lot of good points for reference to work with.
Both are worth a look;
https://www.excellentgundog.com/

http://www.clickerdogs.com/index.php

They both refer to training from puppies, to get their results, but, a lot can be applied to an older dog also. It is about understanding how to manipulate and convince the dog, "this" is a good thing to be doing.

There are times when you have to get in a dog's face, but, the fewer, the better.

[aulrich]

OK I going to make one more assumption, and that is, the dog has had minimal hunting exposure up till now. So I think there are some baseline things you will need to touch on

Bird exposure
Gun exposure
Water exposure

Is your dog pointing at all

Along with recall, you will need to start working a pointers base command whoa. I read an old time article and this guy said if a pointer knows whoa stone cold it’s the only command it needs to know not even “here” since you could whoa the dog, walk up to it and put a lead on it and walk away.

Even if the dog was worked before now I think you need to look at the current season as an investment season you want to build enthusiasm for the field and develop core skills. It’s like taking a 5 year old fishing keep it fun and do it as often as possible. Even though the dog is 2.5 you need to think of this season as his puppy season, lots of time out, but low expectations other than fun and progression.

If you plan on doing any water work, try to take him for swamp romps, find a small “clean” slew and let him chase some ducks, it’s good for the old prey drive and getting him to use his nose.

Though for actual hunting the books say to get a few upland birds shot over him first then add ducks in.

Until his recall firms up there is nothing wrong with letting him drag the CC through the field (though not in the water).

When you take him hunting only shoot pointed birds or flushes he was nowhere near. In general hunt alone.

If possible get your hands on a couple of geese ducks and grouse and freeze them for later training

[Pudelpointer]

Aulrich has given you some excellent advise.

[johnsnowkornar]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Is not a training e collar issue but rather a training and obedience issue. 100 foot check cord is $18.

Why would they confiscate it?I want to pick an ecollar with gps and vibrate. anyone know what and where i should be looking?

[WinefredCommander]

Dogtra Pathfinder. Phenomenal product. It does it ALL.

[graybeard]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Is not an e collar issue but rather a training and obedience issue. 100 foot check cord is $18.

If anyone should know, it is wwbirds....I don't know of a more knowledgeable member....
Good luck,