possible reasons behind High River grab

[twofifty]

I've long thought about why the High River and Slave Lake grabs occurred, and the possible reasons behind it.

I propose that this operation was likely authorized at a very high level in government or the RCMP. To what purpose? To determine how compliant the population had been in registering their firearms under the FA.

Premise:
Not knowing is often bothersome to the authorities, who are known to be fond of nice clean accurate record keeping.

The Questions:
Despite the LGR, the government never had any real sense of how many firearms were actually owned by Canadians. There probably was a sense that many guns had never been registered.
How many was one question the High River gun grab was tasked to answer. Another benefit would be that it would be possible to quantify the overall level of national compliance with the former LGR.

Waiting for a Cover Story:
Let's suppose the above needed resolving before the defunct registry's data became even more out of date... Time is of the essence, but knowing Canadians value their rights, they had to wait for a good cover story with which to hoodwink us.

The Method - a door-to-door Inventory:
A statistically valid method is to choose a sample population, in a representative town, and do a door-to-door inventory. High River's flood (and earlier the firestorm in Slave Lake) presented the perfect cover stories to perform this door-to-door survey.

The Conclusions:
Any firearms found whose serial # they couldn't cross-reference to the old Registry, and that Customs records showed wasn't imported into the country since the Registry's demise, would with absolute certainty have been non-compliant with the defunct Registry - even though that gun might have changed hands after the Registry's demise.

What does this mean:
The government now has an accurate measure of how compliant Canadians are. This could be useful in terms of future improvements to the FA, to a future registry, and to future verification and enforcement processes.

What were the Costs:
Most seriously, repeated and severe breaches of our Constitutional rights.
Destruction and damage to households and to personal property.
In the long term, a further erosion of the population's trust in the RCMP and in government.

[Grizzly Adams]

Let's admit it, the government agencies want to control us, motivation for just about anything they do.

Grizz

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by twofifty

I've long thought about why the High River and Slave Lake grabs occurred, and the possible reasons behind it.

I propose that this operation was likely authorized at a very high level in government or the RCMP. To what purpose? To determine how compliant the population had been in registering their firearms under the FA.

Premise:
Not knowing is often bothersome to the authorities, who are known to be fond of nice clean accurate record keeping.

The Questions:
Despite the LGR, the government never had any real sense of how many firearms were actually owned by Canadians. There probably was a sense that many guns had never been registered.
How many was one question the High River gun grab was tasked to answer. Another benefit would be that it would be possible to quantify the overall level of national compliance with the former LGR.

Waiting for a Cover Story:
Let's suppose the above needed resolving before the defunct registry's data became even more out of date... Time is of the essence, but knowing Canadians value their rights, they had to wait for a good cover story with which to hoodwink us.

The Method - a door-to-door Inventory:
A statistically valid method is to choose a sample population, in a representative town, and do a door-to-door inventory. High River's flood (and earlier the firestorm in Slave Lake) presented the perfect cover stories to perform this door-to-door survey.

The Conclusions:
Any firearms found whose serial # they couldn't cross-reference to the old Registry, and that Customs records showed wasn't imported into the country since the Registry's demise, would with absolute certainty have been non-compliant with the defunct Registry - even though that gun might have changed hands after the Registry's demise.

What does this mean:
The government now has an accurate measure of how compliant Canadians are. This could be useful in terms of future improvements to the FA, to a future registry, and to future verification and enforcement processes.

What were the Costs:
Most seriously, repeated and severe breaches of our Constitutional rights.
Destruction and damage to households and to personal property.
In the long term, a further erosion of the population's trust in the RCMP and in government.

This is either joke or the 'Darwin" post of the year!

[calgarychef]

Darwin post? Do you even know what a "Darwin post" is?

[shep dog]

Originally Posted by twofifty

I've long thought about why the High River and Slave Lake grabs occurred, and the possible reasons behind it.

I propose that this operation was likely authorized at a very high level in government or the RCMP. To what purpose? To determine how compliant the population had been in registering their firearms under the FA.

Premise:
Not knowing is often bothersome to the authorities, who are known to be fond of nice clean accurate record keeping.

The Questions:
Despite the LGR, the government never had any real sense of how many firearms were actually owned by Canadians. There probably was a sense that many guns had never been registered.
How many was one question the High River gun grab was tasked to answer. Another benefit would be that it would be possible to quantify the overall level of national compliance with the former LGR.

Waiting for a Cover Story:
Let's suppose the above needed resolving before the defunct registry's data became even more out of date... Time is of the essence, but knowing Canadians value their rights, they had to wait for a good cover story with which to hoodwink us.

The Method - a door-to-door Inventory:
A statistically valid method is to choose a sample population, in a representative town, and do a door-to-door inventory. High River's flood (and earlier the firestorm in Slave Lake) presented the perfect cover stories to perform this door-to-door survey.

The Conclusions:
Any firearms found whose serial # they couldn't cross-reference to the old Registry, and that Customs records showed wasn't imported into the country since the Registry's demise, would with absolute certainty have been non-compliant with the defunct Registry - even though that gun might have changed hands after the Registry's demise.

What does this mean:
The government now has an accurate measure of how compliant Canadians are. This could be useful in terms of future improvements to the FA, to a future registry, and to future verification and enforcement processes.

What were the Costs:
Most seriously, repeated and severe breaches of our Constitutional rights.
Destruction and damage to households and to personal property.
In the long term, a further erosion of the population's trust in the RCMP and in government.

Someone needs to loosen up his tin foil hat.

[ctd]

Yup tin foil hat time.

[twofifty]

Most everything happens for a reason, especially when people are involved.

If what I propose is 'tinhattery', what alternative reasons would you propose?

[brendan's dad]

The "Darwin Awards" are given out for acts of stupidy. What's your understanding? I did give the guy the opportunitty to say it was a joke.


If I understand correctly though, "twofifty" is suggesting that the RCMP decided during the 2 worst natural disasters in Alberta history that it would be an excellent idea to conduct a make shift "Angus Reid" poll into Canadian's compliance with the LGR.

I think he might have folded the tin foil hat a little too tight this time.

[twofifty]

That's fine Brendan. Don't waste your time here.

Let's get some more opinions.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Let's admit it, the government agencies want to control us, motivation for just about anything they do.

Grizz

X2 damn it!
Sad to say but look around,skating rinks,door knobs,etc.
Read the news. How do you eat an elephant? One small bite at a time. Same goes for taking over a population. Use terrorism etc. fear is a wonderful tool.

[Okotokian]

I personally think it was a little more "innocent" (or at least less Machiavellian) than the OP suspects. Doesn't make it right, but I think someone was just too much of a nervous nellie about guns available to possible looters, and didn't think about (or value) the rights of gun owning citizens.

[3blade]

While I dont doubt that such information was gained and recorded from the gun grabs, it has limited use regarding tactical planning (ex: how likely is the govt to face armed resistance). I'd bet it had more to do with the 'what' question (what capabilities do citizens possess) than the 'how many'. An f-class setup represents a capability they wouldn't like. An old cooey 22....not so much.

I painted my tinfoil camo.

[3blade]

Brendons dad: if I told you 5 years ago that the NSA could monitor and record unlimited data on all electronic communications, you probably would have told me to loosen my hat. How did that turn out?

[rugatika]

Gotta agree with Oko (partially). The government itself isn't concerned about guns to that extent. They pass gun laws to garner votes, not because they're concerned about gun violence.

Someone in the RCMP got paranoid about an armed uprising or some crazy guy getting his deer rifle and taking pot shots at them for not letting them back in their homes, and they figured they better scoop up the guns. Problem being, they don't have that power.

Darwin awards are for people that remove themselves from the gene pool...not solely stupidity. (and I will add that I am not insinuating anyone is stupid)

[The Elkster]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I personally think it was a little more "innocent" (or at least less Machiavellian) than the OP suspects. Doesn't make it right, but I think someone was just too much of a nervous nellie about guns available to possible looters, and didn't think about (or value) the rights of gun owning citizens.

Bingo. That combined with the fact that when the authorities shut down an area they are then far more liable for whatever happens there. Looting and stolen guns and the results of any of that. People and gov'ts tend to get "gun shy" whenever dealing with any potential liabilities. I dare say most RCMP would rather deal with the fallout from the high river gun show as it stands rather than be answering questions about a multiple homicide with a looted gun and how o' how could they let that happen. For them I'm sure it becomes a case of the lesser of two evils.

Whether one considers that a viable reason is one thing but certainly this is a far less sinister and reasonable conclusion than the OPs speculation.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Brendons dad: if I told you 5 years ago that the NSA could monitor and record unlimited data on all electronic communications, you probably would have told me to loosen my hat. How did that turn out?

Technology evolves so in your scenario anything is possible, I might be going to the rink in flying car some day. But, what the OP suggested is just plain silly.

[twofifty]

Thank you for that clarification Ruga.

[BANG]

I think that theory is unlikely.
However if that was the case would i be surprised?
Not in the least
Moot point anyways really as it happened no matter what the motivation was.

[skidderman]

I think they did it for three reasons. 1) Because they could. 2) Because in general they despise gun owners and will do everything they can to discourage people from owning guns. 3) Because they want to be seen as the one that calls the shots; i.e. proving they are in control, not the government. If I had to pick one reason it would be #1, (because they could). I do not think they feel they should answer to anyone including the government. Really though, what does it matter what we think? They don't care!!!!!!!

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Gotta agree with Oko (partially). The government itself isn't concerned about guns to that extent. They pass gun laws to garner votes, not because they're concerned about gun violence.

Someone in the RCMP got paranoid about an armed uprising or some crazy guy getting his deer rifle and taking pot shots at them for not letting them back in their homes, and they figured they better scoop up the guns. Problem being, they don't have that power.

Darwin awards are for people that remove themselves from the gene pool...not solely stupidity. (and I will add that I am not insinuating anyone is stupid)

Ahhhhhhh were the rifles not all secure behind a RCMP road block?

Just goes to show how easily fooled some are!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

The "Darwin Awards" are given out for acts of stupidy. What's your understanding? I did give the guy the opportunitty to say it was a joke.


If I understand correctly though, "twofifty" is suggesting that the RCMP decided during the 2 worst natural disasters in Alberta history that it would be an excellent idea to conduct a make shift "Angus Reid" poll into Canadian's compliance with the LGR.

I think he might have folded the tin foil hat a little too tight this time.

The "poll" was not about compliance with the LGR, but about compliance with the Authority.

The RCMP remarked during the High River episode that its actions were now authorized in principal (but not necessarily law) as public outrage was insufficient during the Slave Lake confiscations.

A little piece at a time....

[pilotguy89]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I personally think it was a little more "innocent" (or at least less Machiavellian) than the OP suspects. Doesn't make it right, but I think someone was just too much of a nervous nellie about guns available to possible looters, and didn't think about (or value) the rights of gun owning citizens.

Agreed and this is coming from a guy who actually had my guns taken! Is what it is, it sucks but people blow things way out of the water.

[coastalhunter]

Dry run for gun confiscation.

Molon Labe

[Who Da Fisherman]

Waiting for a Cover Story:
Let's suppose the above needed resolving before the defunct registry's data became even more out of date... Time is of the essence, but knowing Canadians value their rights, they had to wait for a good cover story with which to hoodwink us.

Wow! What do you think the next natural disaster that they will hood wink us again will be?
WDF

[silverdoctor]

IMO the LGR, the firearms act, the restricted registry etc are all means of control for a certain percentage of the population. It's been said many times, the criminal element cares not about our laws - but law abiding citizens will respect them. Walks like a duck...

I think this was about pushing the public to see how far they can go. There wasn't a whole lot of backlash in reality, now the police are making it a policy to seize firearms in any disaster.

Stay tuned, it'll happen again.

[mich]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I personally think it was a little more "innocent" (or at least less Machiavellian) than the OP suspects. Doesn't make it right, but I think someone was just too much of a nervous nellie about guns available to possible looters, and didn't think about (or value) the rights of gun owning citizens.

It was not innocent at all, it was part of someone's master plan to control a town. It worked for them once before

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The "poll" was not about compliance with the LGR, but about compliance with the Authority.

The RCMP remarked during the High River episode that its actions were now authorized in principal (but not necessarily law) as public outrage was insufficient during the Slave Lake confiscations.

A little piece at a time....

You do realize that the same clowns that had their fingers in Slave Lake had their fingers in High River. They got away with it once, High River just happened to hit a raw nerve with a lot more people

[drhu22]

Originally Posted by twofifty

I've long thought about why the High River and Slave Lake grabs occurred, and the possible reasons behind it.
I propose that this operation was likely authorized at a very high level in government or the RCMP. To what purpose? To determine how compliant the population had been in registering their firearms under the FA.
Premise:
Not knowing is often bothersome to the authorities, who are known to be fond of nice clean accurate record keeping.
The Questions:
Despite the LGR, the government never had any real sense of how many firearms were actually owned by Canadians. There probably was a sense that many guns had never been registered.
How many was one question the High River gun grab was tasked to answer. Another benefit would be that it would be possible to quantify the overall level of national compliance with the former LGR.

Waiting for a Cover Story:
Let's suppose the above needed resolving before the defunct registry's data became even more out of date... Time is of the essence, but knowing Canadians value their rights, they had to wait for a good cover story with which to hoodwink us.

The Method - a door-to-door Inventory:
A statistically valid method is to choose a sample population, in a representative town, and do a door-to-door inventory. High River's flood (and earlier the firestorm in Slave Lake) presented the perfect cover stories to perform this door-to-door survey.
The Conclusions:
Any firearms found whose serial # they couldn't cross-reference to the old Registry, and that Customs records showed wasn't imported into the country since the Registry's demise, would with absolute certainty have been non-compliant with the defunct Registry - even though that gun might have changed hands after the Registry's demise.
What does this mean:
The government now has an accurate measure of how compliant Canadians are. This could be useful in terms of future improvements to the FA, to a future registry, and to future verification and enforcement processes.
What were the Costs:
Most seriously, repeated and severe breaches of our Constitutional rights.
Destruction and damage to households and to personal property.
In the long term, a further erosion of the population's trust in the RCMP and in government.

It seems like you're arriving at a lot of conclusions from a lot of suppositions.

[twofifty]

To me they're not so much suppositions as they are a somewhat logical presentation of a hypothesis and the sequence of possible motives and actions behind the events that occured.

Others in this thread have presented other equally possible motives.

[drhu22]

Originally Posted by twofifty

To me they're not so much suppositions as they are a somewhat logical presentation of a hypothesis and the sequence of possible motives and actions behind the events that occured.
Others in this thread have presented other equally possible motives.

Your logic is flawless... now I see!
My point is that you can dream up as many possible motives as you like.

[Jack&7]

I also agree with Oko...

I think someone with a lot of stripes got a little too big for his britches and wrote a cheque his arse couldn't cash. The problem was the poked a sleeping bear and like the proverbial snow ball rolling down the hill, it got way ahead of them and there was no stopping it. That snow ball got REALLY big...

Now, it is a matter of the brass covering for one of their own big boys. Because if it gets out that this decision was made by someone high up (as it was IMHO) as opposed to the local guys, the ramifications of how this looks to John Q. Public is massive!

This is a living example of what happens when you tell one little lie...

"Meh...what's the worst that can happen?"