The Future of Sheep in Alberta

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's yet another regulation that will accomplish nothing and waste precious F&W dollars or require hunters to pony up needless fees to take the course. Don't we have enough regulations and enough wasteful fees already?

A short little 1 hour course doesn't seem to bother the wainwright hunters.
Why do you think it "will accomplish nothing"?

Originally Posted by Tonto

A short little 1 hour course doesn't seem to bother the wainwright hunters.
Why do you think it "will accomplish nothing"?

I've hunted Wainwright several times and never taken a one-hour course but, the breifing at Wainwright is stricty to point out saftey concerns and to establish the boundaries of the hunt for each day. It is necessary for the hunt to take place.

I think the intent of the sheep course has become very twisted. Hagar's original idea was to use it to encourage sheep hunters to pass on younger rams. Now you are talking about it being an education course for judging legal rams. The two are very different. I can never see a course encouraging people not to shoot younger legal rams accomplishing anything. There are enough guys that will shoot the first legal ram they see for it to ever make a difference. That's why I think it will accomplish nothing.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I've hunted Wainwright several times and never taken a one-hour course but, the breifing at Wainwright is stricty to point out saftey concerns and to establish the boundaries of the hunt for each day. It is necessary for the hunt to take place.

I think the intent of the sheep course has become very twisted. Hagar's original idea was to use it to encourage sheep hunters to pass on younger rams. Now you are talking about it being an education course for judging legal rams. The two are very different. I can never see a course encouraging people not to shoot younger legal rams accomplishing anything. There are enough guys that will shoot the first legal ram they see for it to ever make a difference. That's why I think it will accomplish nothing.

Yes , I know the course at wainwright is not about the animals, but it still has to be attended and adds up to more then an hour EVERY year you get drawn.
Yes, I am talking about a one time course for first time hunters to judge legal rams. I don't think that it would be too large of an inconvenience and it would accomplish something.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Hagar

This whole discussion on based on a thread "Proposed changes to sheep hunting In Alberta" in which it was stated and confirmed that because of pressure on SRD they where looking at making changes to the way sheep are hunted in Alberta.Their choices where

1)Put sheep on a draw.

2)A 5 year wait between rams.

3)Limit the number of rams per lifetime.

4)Full curl rule for all of Alberta.

Now I have never said that there is a problem or that I wanted any changes.There were also many other ideas put forward as options to the proposed plans.What I wrote where just thought on this ideas and a few of my own.

There are many here that continue to believe that nothing needs to be done and that all of this is a waist of time.Whiether or not there is a problem it would seem changes are on the way and if we do not prepare to voice our thoughts now,we may wake up and find the changes have already been made and we have missed our chance to voice our opinions.

As far as the sheep course,is it really that much different then the hunters ed course.First time hunters have to take it before they can hunt.And if a little extra education is such a burden for you then so be it.

Oh come on everyone knows how many people simply check off online that they have the course and get their licenses, jeez several people have confessed to it on here. There are no penalties for not having the course going hunting as far as I can see and that really speaks to how important it is.

[Hagar]

sheephunter you are the one who as twisted the intent of the the core of a sheep course.My intent with the course was #1 proper judging of sheep with demos on how they a measured by Game Wardens.This is what would be most important in the course.The conservation part of the course would be for back ground on how sheep hunting and sheep habitat has changed.I never said it was to make hunters shoot older sheep,It may change the way some think and it may not.If it changes how a few think that would be an extra benefit .

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Tonto

A short little 1 hour course doesn't seem to bother the wainwright hunters.
Why do you think it "will accomplish nothing"?

I did Wainwright this year and it had nothing to do with animals and everything to do with obeying the laws of the base and the repercussions of disobeying.
Hagars proposed course is nothing more than an expensive and glorified check off

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Hagar

If it changes how a few think that would be an extra benefit .

And that is where the whole concept of the course breaks down. The hidden ulterior motive.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Yes, I do. Because if there is one sheep left on the mountain you are a dreamer believing that any amount of a course will prevent everyone from making the mistake. So, if there is one mistake made we are expending far too much time, money and inconvenience to not solve a problem. If indeed there is an epidemic of short sheep left on the mountainsides the issue does need to be addressed.

We do not need ever restrictive controls placed on who, when and where if there is not a demonstrable need and reasonable assurance of rectification. Look where "one is too many" and "Do you really need a benefit analysis to see that this may help." got us with the gun registry.

No truer words were spoken! All These people running around proposing restrictions over nothing are using the SAME logic that got us the gun registery. What can it hurt and common it won't cost that much..

[Vindalbakken]

Do we know exactly who is pushing SRD to make the changes? Which self interest group has SRD's number?

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by 209x50

No truer words were spoken! All These people running around proposing restrictions over nothing are using the SAME logic that got us the gun registery. What can it hurt and common it won't cost that much..

I think that type of logic got us the Boaters Exam as well. Now there is an effective program that is worth everyone's time and money.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

I think that type of logic got us the Boaters Exam as well. Now there is an effective program that is worth everyone's time and money.

Yep another very worth while waste of money and time wasn't that one.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Jamie

SG.. Whats with all the nattering.. You sound like a old women.

I have read most posts you have made, and though they seem somewhat knowledgeable, your manner in speaking and the constant low brow harping on SH is getting real old.
Though you may think your being Witty by bring up a certain person from SH past life it gets old. These juvenile attempts are at best silly and at worst disgusting.
Your constant twisting of words makes a "Non" sheep hunter want to think you are full of Horse shyt.

Why 209 would want to hunt the mine is his Biz. And yes the comments made about his sheep were uncalled for. He hunted hard and came home with a animal. I don't see what the big deal is. Just because you chose to hike into god knows where does not make 209 any less of a hunter. I am sure though out his many days he has seen as much hidden land as you.


You come across as a "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" Kinda guy.
Personally I would like you to just shut the hell up

You mentioned that SH had no idea why people posted.. Well with the amount of time you spend TRYING to disprove SH I am beginning to think you are one of those guys who will start shooting his mouth off in camp or whatever street corner you are standing on, telling everyone who will listen just how you managed to put a Outdoor writer in his place. I am sure there is a bit more than a little embellishment with each passing story. I would guess by now that you don't even mention you do it from sanctuary of your computer

Sorry SG It's getting really old.

Stop with the crying and start sharing the info with out you getting so personally involved.

Jamie

Jamie, the ignore button is your friend, use it and relax, life is way to long to put up with stupidity.

Originally Posted by Hagar

sheephunter you are the one who as twisted the intent of the the core of a sheep course.My intent with the course was #1 proper judging of sheep with demos on how they a measured by Game Wardens.This is what would be most important in the course.The conservation part of the course would be for back ground on how sheep hunting and sheep habitat has changed.I never said it was to make hunters shoot older sheep,It may change the way some think and it may not.If it changes how a few think that would be an extra benefit .

Hagar, I never got that out of your posts regarding the course. Sorry if I misunderstood. I always read that you wanted the course to encourage hunters to shoot older sheep. This is the first I've heard of it being a judging/conservation course. I think what you outline above would be far more than a 10-minute course, however, and would require classroom time. Where would the courses be held? How often would they be held? Who would put them on? What could be done for people in more remote communities? Who would pay for it? How would hunters show proof of course participation to be able to buy a licence? As 209 pointed out, there are first-time hunters acquiring hunting licences without taking the hunter ed course.

I can't see the already over-worked biologists and officers wanting to give up their weekends to teach dozens of these courses across the province and I also see it being a real hardship on people outside of major centers. They may have to travel hundreds of kilometers and stay in hotels and eat meals in restaurants. It seems like it could end up costing hunters hundreds of dollars personally and taxpayers untold amounts. What is the problem this course is trying to address again?

[Setterman]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Do we know exactly who is pushing SRD to make the changes? Which self interest group has SRD's number?

I have confirmation that both APOS and FNAWS are pushing for the 5 year wait. I have asked current members(on a another thread) of both organizations to come forward to clarify this position as I know that there are member that read this board. To date no response. Cheers SM

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Jamie, the ignore button is your friend, use it and relax, life is way to long to put up with stupidity.

Ive wanted to use this same said button, but its like a real bad accident, you just cant help but stand in shock and awe and stare. Been a couple real slammer threads about sheep that have been a good read, but definately have been worth staying clear of due to "individuals".

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Any education is a good thing. Hunters will never learn everything about any animal or conservation in their lifetime. (some may think they know it all, already)
But, a 1 hour course for all new sheephunter's will most likely save a lot of short sheep left on the mountain. That's probably enough to justify.

Here's a thought. If there is any doubt don't pull the trigger, I know it may be hard to do but if you let it walk away just think next year it will be that much bigger. I think some believe that the Ram will be in the same spot at the same time the following year. SG reread post 850 Pg.29.sheep on draw. I believe you stated older Rams are the breeders and on this tread now you say it is the younger Rams.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Setterman

I have confirmation that both APOS and FNAWS are pushing for the 5 year wait. I have asked current members(on a another thread) of both organizations to come forward to clarify this position as I know that there are member that read this board. To date no response. Cheers SM

I visited with the good people at the Wild Sheep booth at Calgary a couple of times and bought Sandi a ticket on the draw.
I never broached the subject with any of them but several did with me, denying they had anything to do with the 5 year fiasco. A couple of the fellows were very believable and a couple looked guilty as he11. I asked one who I've known and trusted for many years and he grinned looked down and said "no comment"

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Yes , I know the course at wainwright is not about the animals, but it still has to be attended and adds up to more then an hour EVERY year you get drawn.
Yes, I am talking about a one time course for first time hunters to judge legal rams. I don't think that it would be too large of an inconvenience and it would accomplish something.

Do you know for a fact that there was a short sheep shot last year? Or the year before... any of them? I don't and I can't get any statistics saying whether there has been one shot or not. Until there is a problem identified this is just another cockamamie hoop to jump through.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Hagar

sheephunter you are the one who as twisted the intent of the the core of a sheep course.My intent with the course was #1 proper judging of sheep with demos on how they a measured by Game Wardens.This is what would be most important in the course.The conservation part of the course would be for back ground on how sheep hunting and sheep habitat has changed.I never said it was to make hunters shoot older sheep,It may change the way some think and it may not.If it changes how a few think that would be an extra benefit .

Thats funny it was posted on here that sometimes the wardens can't even age or tell if a Ram is legal, so now your trying to make Sheep hunters better than wardens.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Ive wanted to use this same said button, but its like a real bad accident, you just cant help but stand in shock and awe and stare. Been a couple real slammer threads about sheep that have been a good read, but definately have been worth staying clear of due to "individuals".

LOL Pack. The beauty is you can participate in a great discussion and never have to worry about what they are saying.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Thats funny it was posted on here that sometimes the wardens can't even age or tell if a Ram is legal, so now your trying to make Sheep hunters better than wardens.

Yes sir I've seen the wide range of officer opnions when they aged my rams. As I said before they have a tough and busy job and what does it really matter to me if the officer and I don't agree on the age of a legal sheep?

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Yes sir I've seen the wide range of officer opnions when they aged my rams. As I said before they have a tough and busy job and what does it really matter to me if the officer and I don't agree on the age of a legal sheep?

I know of one Ram last year that was taken away because it was thought to be short, and the hunter later had it returned to him. I also know of one short Ram shot as well.

[SLH]

Well I think if you sift through some of this we are getting closer.

I think SH said this

Identify the problem first and then come up with creative solutions.

And Setterman has isolated the problem...

[QUOTE=Setterman;508511]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Excellent point Vin, let's examine what is really going on here. There are two special interest groups 1) APOS and 2) FNAWS (linked to APOS) that are pushing very hard to restict resident hunters. It seems to me that this entire issue is not about sheep but about getting competition off the mountain. I am not against APOS but i am against any special interest group that is trying to restrict my hunting rights so that their clients who are non resident have a better oppurtunity to harvest a ram while they line their pockets with more money.

Yes we can improve sheep numbers and quality by reducing predation and increasing habitat but that is not what is being proposed by the government. They are trying to restrict resident hunter oppurtunities and they have not shown that there is in fact a problem.

Keep it going boys!! Cheers SM

Now I've been in touch with a knowledgeable person on the topic as well and he has confirmed Setterman's quote. The solution then would be to force SRD to come up with the numbers, make them honor the Management Plan that has contigencies for these types of concerns and restore the balance of allocations and resident demands as they should be.

Keep the politics and the commercialization out of the equation and I think we will have a decent solution.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I visited with the good people at the Wild Sheep booth at Calgary a couple of times and bought Sandi a ticket on the draw.
I never broached the subject with any of them but several did with me, denying they had anything to do with the 5 year fiasco. A couple of the fellows were very believable and a couple looked guilty as he11. I asked one who I've known and trusted for many years and he grinned looked down and said "no comment"

So what should we do about that, my concerns would suggest that I might want to question whether I should support their raffle. As a member I would want to get the truth and as a concerned hunter from this province I would want them to come clean as to their stated goals and what this push is supposed to accomplish.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Oh thank you Jamie ill try and behave on your behalf!
I say what I want, when I want, how I want and if you dont like it thats perfectly fine, if the mods dont like it ill be gone. Im not changing the way I am because you arent happy with my way of speaking or if I try and disproove someone. If you are gunna stop every guy that does this on this forum Rob wont be to pleased as it will be over.
Thanks for your concern but im pretty good at taking care of myself.
SG

All that's missing from this post, is a picture of you standing there in the middle of walmart stomping your foot.

I am beginning to wonder if 209 has the right idea.

Jamie

[209x50]

Originally Posted by SLH

So what should we do about that, my concerns would suggest that I might want to question whether I should support their raffle. As a member I would want to get the truth and as a concerned hunter from this province I would want them to come clean as to their stated goals and what this push is supposed to accomplish.

It is always a tough call on whether more change can be brought about from the inside or outside. I'm a pretty blunt fellow and I'm often accused of being rude, I prefer to to think of it as being to the point, LOL. What should be done? My feeling and this is only my feeling, everyone has to decide for themselves what is right, but my feeling is perhaps it is time to teach organizations who forget where they come from a lesson. If they forget who supports them and who they represent then they aren't much worth having around are they? I get a very strong feeling that perhaps Wild Sheep has lost their way and need to helped back to the path and remember who put them on that path. I got a strong sense that they were afraid of repercussions from being linked to this horse sh1t and while I don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water maybe it is time to point out what could happen. I really hate how it appears that they are using AFGA to do their dirty work.

[SLH]

With what you were able to garner from them what was their rationale for this and what is the connection with APOS, because honestly I have a feeling their fingers are in on this as well. What connections and how close are the two. I think this is important for Alberta hunters to consider next time they want to help out with the Federation cause.

[Huntnut]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Jamie, the ignore button is your friend, use it and relax, life is way to long to put up with stupidity.

But sometimes it's so pathetic that it's funny.

[Huntnut]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I visited with the good people at the Wild Sheep booth at Calgary a couple of times and bought Sandi a ticket on the draw.
I never broached the subject with any of them but several did with me, denying they had anything to do with the 5 year fiasco. A couple of the fellows were very believable and a couple looked guilty as he11. I asked one who I've known and trusted for many years and he grinned looked down and said "no comment"

So what's your gut feeling? Do you think they're behind it?

[Vindalbakken]

Officially it is quite doubtful that FNAWS will admit to being behind the resolution. But it would be quite likely to me that influential members of FNAWS would be behind the AFGA resolution. I understand that the resolution did not come from the members but rather directly from the executive of the zone. Is that right? If I were a member of that zone I would be doing some long and hard thinking about who are the executive and what are their motives for being there.

When the organized outfitters wanted to push through the allocated licences for personal profiteering they knew that with the resistance they had from other outfitters there was no way to convince the gov't without having the main voice on side - the AFGA. Once they gained control of the AFGA executive the proposal came off the back burner.

This is a similar tactic to try and show support from the resident hunter for an ill-founded plan.


PS- There is your conspiracy theory SH