Sheep Part 3

[209x50]

Originally Posted by JustinC

No 209 I think you dont.they are the same thing protectect areas period.

Also you said people like me. What do you mean by that????

Jeez protected or not do you truly believe there would be all those sheep there with out the reclaimed mine and all that feed?

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Jeez protected or not do you truly believe there would be all those sheep there with out the reclaimed mine and all that feed?

No, so what is your point.I bet those sheep in the park are there cause you cant hunt them.They come out only for the rut cause they know what will happen if they do.Why is it you want this on a general tag so bad? I think after a couple years of limited hunting season maybe but that is later and probably never going to happen any way. I Really want you to answer my other question I asked in my last post.

[Bowhunter]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

I am not sure why you are giving me a lecture concerning our wildlife working groups. I have spent my adult life working for and volunteering with these stakeholders. I am currently a member of multiple organizations in these groups and am also currently sitting on a wildlife executive. I also personally know and respect Kelly as well as many other people within these organizations. (I also have many immediate family members who have also worked with these organizations and within all levels of government) Please don’t speak to me as if I am not informed. It is because I am informed that I fully understand the workings within these organizations and that I have legitimate concerns.

I am not in any way discounting the significant or amazing work us volunteers do. We work very hard to perpetuate our hunting beliefs and traditions.

However, this does not absolve APOS from having a disproportionate influence with our government and within these working groups. Or are you honestly trying to tell me, someone who is informed, that they don’t? Please don’t try and cloud the issue by talking about all the good things our organizations do as if this is justification for disproportionate representation and influence.

Single Malt

Well I'm happy to hear your involved. No lecture here. I was just standing up against retoric and unfounded speculation against hard working volunteers and...since you bring it up....what specific situations are you referring to that substantiate any one group having an advantage over the rest. I'll certainly yield my position with documented real situations. BTW....I'm not interested in hearing about a group getting their way and because of it...."they must have influence".

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Jeez protected or not do you truly believe there would be all those sheep there with out the reclaimed mine and all that feed?

They sure wouldnt be there if there was a hunting season

[Setterman]

BTW....sorry I didn't respond in turn...

Gary McCartney[/QUOTE]



Gary, first off I am not attacking any person or organization. The people that have been mentioned are great people who have done a tonne for hunting in this province. I know this because I have worked with them on many occasions.

Again my issue is this. By having the same people, sitting on different boards of different organizations causes a conflict of interest and since I am resident hunter first I have a problem with special interest groups that don’t. APOS is a very well run special interest group and is doing its job well, but they do not represent the resident hunter's interest and thus I feel that they should not be so heavily involved in these other organizations that do represent us. It's that simple!!!!

With regards to my reference to the ABA and what I believe to be a conflict of interest see below , cut and pasted from the ABA website.

Executive
Name Email Phone
Gary McCartney garymccartney at telus dot net
Gun Lemke gunlemke at yahoo dot com
John Biskup tox at myipplus dot net (403)312-1689
Lance Neilson lneilson at telus dot net 403-276-7785
Mike Philip mphilip at telus dot net
Pat Morphy pmorphy at shaw dot ca 780-922-6174
Ryk Visscher ryk at ryk dot ca
Tom Foss tom dot foss at rbcds dot com


Gary please don't try and make it look like I don't know, understand or appreciate what these individuals and organization do in this province, I know what they are doing because I am one of the people who is still actively involved within the Alberta "Hunting" community. Cheers SM

[209x50]

Originally Posted by JustinC

No, so what is your point.I bet those sheep in the park are there cause you cant hunt them.They come out only for the rut cause they know what will happen if they do.Why is it you want this on a general tag so bad? I think after a couple years of limited hunting season maybe but that is later and probably never going to happen any way. I Really want you to answer my other question I asked in my last post.

Of course Cadomin is completely artificial otherwise all those mountains around the mine would also have some sheep on them.

They come out only for the rut cause they know what will happen if they do.

Are you kidding me? Really? You actually believe they are sentient beings? Or have you watched to much Disney. You really said that? Unbelievable. You truly couldn't have any less credibility after that statement LOL!


Why shouldn't these be general tags, they were before.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Are you kidding me? Really? You actually believe they are sentient beings? Or have you watched to much Disney. You really said that? Unbelievable. You truly couldn't have any less credibility after that statement LOL!

I think some one needs to go to Indian Head or Shale pass and see where the rams are hanging out. Just inside the park boundry. They know where that saftey boundry is. Why do so many people hunt the park boundry... because the rams hang just on the other side. Why? They know where they are safe. I think 209 gives his credability and experiance a big X through it with this statment!!

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Of course Cadomin is completely artificial otherwise all those mountains around the mine would also have some sheep on them.


Are you kidding me? Really? You actually believe they are sentient beings? Or have you watched to much Disney. You really said that? Unbelievable. You truly couldn't have any less credibility after that statement LOL!


Why shouldn't these be general tags, they were before.

Why is that? It is no different than the elk in suffield the get educated. You talk like you are a hunting god. You are the most arrogant person I have ever talked to.How is it this cant be true? I dont see sheep running past the pin to go for a walk at Cadomin do you?Right it is during the rut.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I think some one needs to go to Indian Head or Shale pass and see where the rams are hanging out. Just inside the park boundry. They know where that saftey boundry is. Why do so many people hunt the park boundry... because the rams hang just on the other side. Why? They know where they are safe. I think 209 gives his credability and experiance a big X through it with this statment!!

yep

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by Bowhunter

Well I'm happy to hear your involved. No lecture here. I was just standing up against retoric and unfounded speculation against hard working volunteers and...since you bring it up....what specific situations are you referring to that substantiate any one group having an advantage over the rest. I'll certainly yield my position with documented real situations. BTW....I'm not interested in hearing about a group getting their way and because of it...."they must have influence".

Hi Gary,

There are many examples but I will keep things on topic, short and in context of this post.

Example:

When the 5 year wait issue ‘leaked’ on this website I called the sr. biologist in charge of big game in the province. During his explanation he told me that they were scheduled to meet next week with APOS to discuss this exact issue.

How in the world does a special interest group have scheduled meetings with the sr. biologists in our province before residents have even been consulted or informed? The answer is obvious.

[Bowhunter]

I've been on the ABA executive for the past five years, attended all the AGM's,participated in virtually every executive meeting and sat on various committees. Ryk has not been involved in or participated in any executive discussions or decisions. As stated, he keeps our harvest records and runs our game awards program. He does not hold any elected position.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

This is just my personal observations though and im sure some one will show some study on it to proove some point.

Here you go SG.

Titre du document / Document title
Influence of trophy hunting and horn size on mating behavior and survivorship of mountain sheep
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
SINGER Francis J. (1) ; ZEIGENFUSS Linda C. (1) ;

Ram-to-ewe interaction times per individual ewe did not differ for any of the taxa (P > 0.05), and, apparently as a consequence of this, we found no discernable effects of trophy hunting on survivorship of ewes, ewe fecundity, or recruitment of young

Fecundity would be the key word there you will need to look up.

So, what is the big deal about maturity? Other than for your personal viewing pleasure SG?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

Hi Gary,

There are many examples but I will keep things on topic, short and in context of this post.

Example:

When the 5 year wait issue ‘leaked’ on this website I called the sr. biologist in charge of big game in the province. During his explanation he told me that they were scheduled to meet next week with APOS to discuss this exact issue.

How in the world does a special interest group have scheduled meetings with the sr. biologists in our province before residents have even been consulted or informed? The answer is obvious.

I hate it when I'm in a serious conversation, posturing my position, and then the other guy says something that proves me wrong.

[Bowhunter]

Originally Posted by Single Malt

Hi Gary,

There are many examples but I will keep things on topic, short and in context of this post.

Example:

When the 5 year wait issue ‘leaked’ on this website I called the sr. biologist in charge of big game in the province. During his explanation he told me that they were scheduled to meet next week with APOS to discuss this exact issue.

How in the world does a special interest group have scheduled meetings with the sr. biologists in our province before residents have even been consulted or informed? The answer is obvious.

OK....APOS is part of the consultation process. No surprise there. Their harvest, as a result of their membership business activity, is part of the game management equation hence----stakeholder. Obviously, their executive are on the ball getting their foot in the door to look after their interests. Every group will do that. We may not like it but government has no choice but to respond. That said, we also know that the organizations that represent all of us are also on the ball and at the table and, I trust, will continue to look after us.
For what it's worth, I'd rather be heard last. Knowing what special interest groups and antis have up their sleeve can be defended with sound alternatives...if we know their position.

I don't know which organizations you are involved or how deeply you are involved, but I am am sure you know that the groups involved in the AOC have learned over the years that if we do not work together....government will pin us against one another....divide and conquer. You've know doubt seen plenty of evidence of that.
Anyway....thanks for the great debate... obviously you have passion and are concerned like the rest of us.

Gary

[SLH]

Originally Posted by Hagar

So you are saying that the parks are the only places non hunters can go to see wildlife and don't belong anywhere else in Alberta?

Another good reason they should just follow the management plan.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I did hear that 2009 was the first year ever when less than 50% of the overall non-resident tags were not sold but I haven't seen the number of sheep tags sold. I've asked but haven't received an answer yet.

Are we not in a recession, maybe that was why there less non-res sheep shot last year!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Here you go SG.



Fecundity would be the key word there you will need to look up.

So, what is the big deal about maturity? Other than for your personal viewing pleasure SG?

So as they state "Apparently" this doesnt and "they found" no dicernable effects of. Boy now that sounds rock solid to me
Still sounds as if your following something that has holes in it.

Maybe your goal this year should be to put down the books shut off the computer and go west to them big piles of rocks and have an actual look for your self.

So now your quoting something about if trophy hunting affects a ewes ability to survive, be fertile or recruit young.

Wow im over whelmed. Where does it state that the ewe actually will stand there and be bred? It doesnt, it states with trophy hunting ewes can survive, have offspring and "possibly" be bred by young rams. Hmmm seems thats exactly what I stated about younger rams.


Oh and Vin your still quoting studies on 2 herds that have pretty much non existant hunting pressure.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Here you go SG.



Fecundity would be the key word there you will need to look up.

So, what is the big deal about maturity? Other than for your personal viewing pleasure SG?

SOOOOO
If Vins quote is acurate.. Then why do we want OLDER sheep on the mountains?
Seems to me Mother nature would take her tole on them before we could harvest.
Must be becouse people want BIGGER sheep.

This argument keeps going round and round.

Why did some zones go to a full curl when others have remaind the same?

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Jamie

SOOOOO
If Vins quote is acurate.. Then why do we want OLDER sheep on the mountains?
Seems to me Mother nature would take her tole on them before we could harvest.
Must be becouse people want BIGGER sheep.

This argument keeps going round and round.

Why did some zones go to a full curl when others have remaind the same?

Seems to me that the point of natural mortality was made many, many pages ago. One study even showed that if harvest rates were below natural mortality rates that harvest was compensatory and not additive. Certainly if the "normal" harvest of 6 year old rams in a population was 10 and the harvest was suspended, there would not be all 10 of them available in the population as 7 year olds. Most material seems to indicate a natural mortality of 10% per year in rams age 5+. If hunting of 5 year old rams were suspended till they were 8 years old, 30% of that age class of the ram population would be lost to hunting opportunity in the ensuing 3 years.

It is my understanding that the purpose of a full curl zone is to reduce hunter harvest without severely restricting hunter access.

[Jamie]

Some good info there Vin.

I guess it all comes down the Quantity/Quality question.

Thanks for educating me a bit.

Jamie

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Most material seems to indicate a natural mortality of 10% per year in rams age 5+. If hunting of 5 year old rams were suspended till they were 8 years old, 30% of that age class of the ram population would be lost to hunting opportunity in the ensuing 3 years.

So 70% reach the age of 8. That seems like a fairly high rate of survival.
So if 30 5 year old rams are shot per year for example(as we dont know how many 5 yr olds are actually shot). Then by your numbers if we leave these 5 year olds there will still be 22 of them make 8 years old. Still seems like decent numbers to me.

Maybe we should shoot rams at age 3 or 4 so not so many die before they are 5

[Vindalbakken]

Well SG, how about this one "Males have been documented as breeding successfully as young as 6 months of age (Hansen, 1980)."

Or, "It should be noted, however,....horn length does not play a substantial role in the mating success of rams younger than 6-7 years (Coltman et al., 2002). Young rams fertilize ewes using coursing tactics (Hogg, 1988: Hogg and Forbes, 1997), whose success is independent of their dominance rank."

The thing is there have been folks studying these animals for a long time to document specifically targeted behaviors for cause and effect. These are not just "casual observations". Did you return in the spring to see if the young rams were eventually successful in breeding the ewes? Even if they did all bear lambs how would you know who was the sire? These guys make it their business to know those answers.

There was a funny story by a local farmer that is of some interest to this topic. He was breeding Charolais X cows with Black Angus bulls. He turned out the cows with 3 mature bulls in the spring. He also had a yearling Red Angus bull that he didn't want to bother keeping home so he threw him out in the pasture thinking he would pose no threat to himself from the older bulls as he was as yet immature. The following spring fully 30% of the calves were red! It seems that while the old bulls were busy posturing and fighting with themselves over who would get access to the cows the yearling was running around breeding them.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Maybe we should shoot rams at age 3 or 4 so not so many die before they are 5

That would be some of the logic employed in Montana. There your tag is good for either an any age ram or a 3/4 curl ram depending on the zone. Given the evidence of growth rate changes as we progress south I suspect that their most restrictive zones would allow you to shoot a 3 1/2 year old ram.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Well SG, how about this one "Males have been documented as breeding successfully as young as 6 months of age (Hansen, 1980)."

Or, "It should be noted, however,....horn length does not play a substantial role in the mating success of rams younger than 6-7 years (Coltman et al., 2002). Young rams fertilize ewes using coursing tactics (Hogg, 1988: Hogg and Forbes, 1997), whose success is independent of their dominance rank."

The thing is there have been folks studying these animals for a long time to document specifically targeted behaviors for cause and effect. These are not just "casual observations". Did you return in the spring to see if the young rams were eventually successful in breeding the ewes? Even if they did all bear lambs how would you know who was the sire? These guys make it their business to know those answers.

There was a funny story by a local farmer that is of some interest to this topic. He was breeding Charolais X cows with Black Angus bulls. He turned out the cows with 3 mature bulls in the spring. He also had a yearling Red Angus bull that he didn't want to bother keeping home so he threw him out in the pasture thinking he would pose no threat to himself from the older bulls as he was as yet immature. The following spring fully 30% of the calves were red! It seems that while the old bulls were busy posturing and fighting with themselves over who would get access to the cows the yearling was running around breeding them.

I have said that young rams do at times breed. The yes in some areas the lamb crop is low. Is this from the ewes not breeding? Your guess is as good as mine.
Sure horn size doesnt play apart. Kinda goes along with horn size not having squat to do with maturity.
Oh and the rest of your quote I have covered before. Young rams occasionaly breed when older rams are in the area by sneaking in while the ram is chasing off other rams. I have a few bighorn videos that also show ewes turn these lesser rams down lots and avoid breedind with them. But that must not be right either.

Sure they have documented that rams have bred at the age of 6 months. Does this mean that all 6 month old sheep are breeding. Of coarse not. Is it the norm? Of coarse not. Just because it has happened doesnt mean that is happening all the time.

Why do you revolve so much of your stuff around horn sizes?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

That would be some of the logic employed in Montana. There your tag is good for either an any age ram or a 3/4 curl ram depending on the zone. Given the evidence of growth rate changes as we progress south I suspect that their most restrictive zones would allow you to shoot a 3 1/2 year old ram.

You obviously havent followed these threads very close as the bigger rams in the south was shot down bad. The only part that is possibly larger is a few bases. B/C scores average higher north of Hwy 1. I can look up the post if you wish.

[Vindalbakken]

I missed it in my post a couple above.

Fecundity - the quality of being fecund; capacity, esp. in female animals, of producing young in great numbers.

I will paraphrase for you SG. Trophy hunting has no effect on the number of young produced in the studied population of bighorn sheep. And no, this was not from one of the Alberta studies.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Oh and the rest of your quote I have covered before. Young rams occasionaly breed when older rams are in the area by sneaking in while the ram is chasing off other rams. I have a few bighorn videos that also show ewes turn these lesser rams down lots and avoid breedind with them. But that must not be right either.

"we estimated that coursing rams fathered 44% of 142 lambs assigned paternity in two natural populations." (Hogg and Forbes, 1997)

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You obviously havent followed these threads very close as the bigger rams in the south was shot down bad. The only part that is possibly larger is a few bases. B/C scores average higher north of Hwy 1. I can look up the post if you wish.

What is this B/C stuff? Rams in the south can achieve 4/5 curl by age 4.5. Rams in the north require an average of 7.5 to reach 4/5 curl. Seems to me that a 3.5 year old ram in Montana should make 3/4 curl. In any case their most restrictive zones are less than our least restrictive zones, and the majority of their zones have no restriction for age/size whatsoever. Minutia does not detract from the concept.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

I missed it in my post a couple above.

Fecundity - the quality of being fecund; capacity, esp. in female animals, of producing young in great numbers.

I will paraphrase for you SG. Trophy hunting has no effect on the number of young produced in the studied population of bighorn sheep. And no, this was not from one of the Alberta studies.

This refers to the shooting of rams with larger horns. I could care less about horn size.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

The yes in some areas the lamb crop is low. Is this from the ewes not breeding? Your guess is as good as mine.

Habitat? Density?

"Young bighorn ewes postpone primiparity when resources are scarce (Jorgenson et al., 1993a), and age of primiparity is often the first vital rate affected by increasing population density in ungulates (Gaillard et al., 2000)"