Alberta limits, size slot, and others...

[Graffy91]

Hey AO,

Just a little food for thought here, little bit of Christmas Day reading for ya...


So I recently compiled up a few ideas on how Alberta could better, and even compete with rival waters in nearby provinces such as Saskatchewan for instance.

I always used to go to Saskatchewan ever since I was little as my dad had our boat stored at my grandmas in Saskatoon and that was where he grew up fishing. So I have fished numerous lakes within the province.
Only recently in the last 2 years have I really intensively fished Alberta, and I really have noticed a terribly managed fishery system.

All of our lakes have some form of stunted fish, population issues, extreme poaching, and just overall damage due from poor management in my opinion.

For instance a lake like Fawcett Lake which has stunted pike with huge heads, and no bellies, walleye that don't exceed 35cm, is classified in a population decrease in fish. They changed their limits from 3 Walleye of 43 cm, to 3 walleye over 50cm... Which makes absolutely no sense in my eyes.

If there is a population issue, why raise the size slot limit to 50cm? When its a known fact that walleye over 50cm are the spawners... Hence my argument, If there is a population decrease and they raise the size slot, people take away the spawners, from a lake that is already down the drain, the damage done is irreversible.


Now a lake like Pigeon for instance, has a pike retention limit of 1 over 100cm. Which makes you wonder, they have an overflow of walleye in that lake and the lake already has no food as it is. Who is willing to keep a pike over 100cm anyways, they taste terrible and a 100cm pike is something you don't keep to eat IMO.

Calling Lake, has a horrible bio-mass problem with WAY too many walleye. What I have read would apparently solve the problem is change the limit to 3, UNDER 50cm. If that works out, you would realistically solve a little bit of the bio-mass problem by removing all the stunted half pound walleyes that would normally weigh a good 2-3lbs anywhere else by doing this would cause the bait fish to keep reproducing and make the older, starving spawners the chance to GROW into normal, healthy fish.


When I grew up, I spent numerous times at Tobin Lake and I could not believe the insane size, and quantity of the fish there. I couldn't wrap my head around the size slot limits when I was say, 10-14 years old. Always getting mad at my pops for releasing my 70cm walleyes, or my 100cm pikes. But realistically people, Tobin Lake is one of the worlds healthiest, and best lakes within Canada. The lake has constant 20+ pike, and 10+ pound walleye.

All because of proper fishing management and proper size slot retention.


Mind you, most of your arguments are going to be on fishing pressure and population, but really people... When you look at some of Alberta's regs you really gotta pull you're hair out because its absurd...


I guess this is more of a rant than anything, or an opinion but Wabamun is a prime example of a closed fishery, which over the years has blossomed into a trophy northern lake an hour within the city.


Alberta really should look into putting stricter size slots and more sensible limits on fish. I don't want to catch constant 2lb walleye with sunken heads and stunted pike every lake within 2 hours from Edmonton...


Merry Christmas to all, and a happy holidays and I hope you are all safe and that no one drinks and drives.

[JohnnyD]

Graffy,

Im on board with what your saying. One problem with opening a slot size on lakes within 1.5 hours of Edmonton is likely, they would be cleaned out in no time. Imagine if Pigeon lake had a 3 walleye limit. Just think of all the days in the summer that there is 20 plus boats anchored at the provincial park. I believe we could make further use of special harvest tags in more situations. Also having more conservation officers or f&w officers making a presence would help with poaching and allow more angler education. I have been enjoying Pigeon lake for 16 years, and spent all my summers out here when I was growing up. In all that time I have seen a conservation officer one time. Pretty weak in my eyes especially when known poaching rings have been busted and the illegal harvest is related to this lake.

As others have mentioned before a course to obtain an angling license similar to a hunting course should be introduced. It could cover responsible harvest, understanding that large fish are breeders, explanation of various tackle (including how to properly pinch down the barb), casting techniques, fish handling and release, and further information related to angling.

[huntsfurfish]

Gonna try and stay out of this one.

[Pikebreath]

Graffy,

Some good points to ponder,,,,

The current scheme of angling regs we have here in Alberta were implemented in the mid to late 90's, becuz many fisheries in the province were collapsed or vulnerable. From the mid 80's to mid 90's, average catch rates for walleye and pike for any size of fish in many accessible Alberta lakes were pathetic to say the least.

Managers tried slot limits on some test lakes which put simply did not work,,, poor angler compliance was part of the problem as was the fact angling pressure is high enough that very few fish made it through the slot to become "protected spawners". Slot limits seem to work much better with moderate angling pressure (like in Saskatchewan).

Anyways back to the mid 90's, it was apparent that recovery was the first order of business and slots in Alberta likely would not accomplish that end. For that reason, we saw significant reductions in catch limits (including zero retention for many walleye populations) and minimum size limits where some harvest was to be allowed. The idea behind the minimum size limit is to allow the fish to spawn at least once before being harvested.

I wouldn't go so far as to say our fisheries have been mismanaged in so far as the objective was to restore fish populations. The current regs have worked in allowing many populations to recover and angling catch rates are significantly higher now that they were 15 years ago. Essentially we now have fisheries that are managed for quantity not quality.

I do agree that it is certainly time to re-examine this policy and we need to go the next step of trying to find some balance in our fisheries which allows more larger fish to survive which would improve angling quality as well.

Slot limits and harvest restrictions on larger fish do need to be looked at. However given Alberta's high angling pressure, we also must insure that enough fish can make through the slot sizes to become larger fish. I suspect this means further harvest restrictions within the slot sizes as well. The walleye tag system for selected lakes is attempt to do so.

Perhaps we need to look at "yearly or seasonal limits" for anglers where you can only harvest "x" number of a certain size and species per year. Expanded use of the tag system could accomplish this. Hunters have long accepted they need a tag to harvest a deer and there are limits on the number of tags / deer they can purchase / harvest in a year. Maybe it is time to adopt a similar approach to fisheries management.

Merry Christmas everyone!!

[blackburbot]

The regs need to be changed. But the government seems slow to react to the problem. It seems that they are more re-active compared to pro-active. One of the problems is that they are looking at lakes on an individual basis. For example, if Calling lake walleye are suffering they adjust the limits on that lake to help it out, but seem to forget that people still want fish to eat. So, like everybody else, I headed out to Fawcett or Rock Island to catch legal fish. So the problems just transfer to that lake. Another problem is the huge population to lake ratio. The list could go on and on. And all us "Arm Chair Quarterbacks" including myself, seem to have the perfect solution to the situation. Wheter it be stop all commercial(netting) fishing, to native harvesting, to more enforcement, to complete catch and release province wide for a couple years. And of course we alway compare each situation we encounter to the "world's best". My suggestion would be to contact Fish and Wildlife (sustainable resources) and read up on their suggestions and reports and contact the area managers and find out about what they have in-line for new changes and offer to help out with projects in the area. And yes, I contacted them already. And recieved information about their new proposals for the areas that I frequent often

[Graffy91]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Graffy,

Im on board with what your saying. One problem with opening a slot size on lakes within 1.5 hours of Edmonton is likely, they would be cleaned out in no time. Imagine if Pigeon lake had a 3 walleye limit. Just think of all the days in the summer that there is 20 plus boats anchored at the provincial park. I believe we could make further use of special harvest tags in more situations. Also having more conservation officers or f&w officers making a presence would help with poaching and allow more angler education. I have been enjoying Pigeon lake for 16 years, and spent all my summers out here when I was growing up. In all that time I have seen a conservation officer one time. Pretty weak in my eyes especially when known poaching rings have been busted and the illegal harvest is related to this lake.

As others have mentioned before a course to obtain an angling license similar to a hunting course should be introduced. It could cover responsible harvest, understanding that large fish are breeders, explanation of various tackle (including how to properly pinch down the barb), casting techniques, fish handling and release, and further information related to angling.

I'm not saying for every lake open up a 3 limit, but they do need to thin out the population because there is too many fish and not enough food.

You can't go to any lake within 2 hours from Edmonton and get a 8+lb walleye, its a shame.

[Bhflyfisher]

Originally Posted by Graffy91

I'm not saying for every lake open up a 3 limit, but they do need to thin out the population because there is too many fish and not enough food.

You can't go to any lake within 2 hours from Edmonton and get a 8+lb walleye, its a shame.

I think the problem with that, is because its so close to a million people (+/-) population, people will abuse the possession limits. Its something that will change but it will take time. Alberta is still caught in this "wackem and stackem" mindset, that the fisheries will be in a vice grip for another couple of decades.

How many fish does someone actually need in their freezers?

Great points and suggestions guys. I certainly am in favor of improving our fisheries. One thing we can do is stop bragging at what lake we caught x fish. Put up a pic but keep the lake to yourself. This keeps poachers and fish pressure down.

Now i think a real good idea is this...

Move to a short harvest season. Eg. 3 walleye limit at pigeon first week of july. Then move that harvest to gull for the following week. Etc. bring it around to each lake for select weeks a few times per year but also keep it moving so i could travel that week somewhere and keep if i really am an enthusiast. Also move the species too. Eg pike only this week then walleye etc.

We truly cant support the province on what we,have for lakes.

Move to a ground up program to create natural spawning grounds. Have government purchase and protect more areas as developers are taking over.

Stop shocking lakes with stocking programs that create stunted fish. Id much rather keep a lake closed and fish healthy populations of pristine lake waters than a polluted city pond filled with so many fish they would starve if we didnt catch them immediately.

Xxxx lake is one of these disasters with massive walleye stocking that kills any minnow fry from surviving due to the zillion semi-mature walleye destroying the new year class. The whites population is crashing. The whites are starving. The pike young are non existent but there is a ton of immature walleye there. Eventually the pike year class will die out. The whites will be like the perch impossible to find and everyone will think cool walleye lake. Never mind the massive development around the lake and backfill of low grassy areas needed for spawn. They destroyed the lake outlet and killed the spawn area for pike and now want to turn it to a spillway to completely eliminate spawn. Then i suppose it justifies their stocking program.


Rant...

Just build up the foundation and the house will stand on its own. Stop putting more stucko on to hide the cracks!

[DiabeticKripple]

didnt know we had so many fisheries biologists on this board....

this province has come a long way in the last 15 years. obviously something is working. it takes years to see the effect a reg change has on a body of water.

[edsonfisherman]

You make some very good points Gaffy, there needs to be change. Alberta fisheries needs to quit thinking every lake in alberta is a stocked put /take trout fishery, and start protecting the spawing fish by lowering the size of the fish we can keep with the use of tags, insted of keeping spawners. Also maybe bring in some fresh blood from other lakes in Canada (Great Lakes) and the US to strengthen the gene pool we already have. They do that already with trading alberta bighorn sheep and Wolves in the past, why not try it here. Also hire more F&W officers to be put into the field, instead of just a few lakes here and there.

"You can't go to any lake within 2 hours from Edmonton and get a 8+lb walleye, its a shame."

There are still some 8+lb Walleye Close to Alberta, you just have to really work hard to get them. Caught one last fall.

[moosehead7]

Alberta couldn't manage a gold fish right

[Graffy91]

Originally Posted by edsonfisherman

You make some very good points Gaffy, there needs to be change. Alberta fisheries needs to quit thinking every lake in alberta is a stocked put /take trout fishery, and start protecting the spawing fish by lowering the size of the fish we can keep with the use of tags, insted of keeping spawners. Also maybe bring in some fresh blood from other lakes in Canada (Great Lakes) and the US to strengthen the gene pool we already have. They do that already with trading alberta bighorn sheep and Wolves in the past, why not try it here. Also hire more F&W officers to be put into the field, instead of just a few lakes here and there.

"You can't go to any lake within 2 hours from Edmonton and get a 8+lb walleye, its a shame."

There are still some 8+lb Walleye Close to Alberta, you just have to really work hard to get them. Caught one last fall.

Only place I expect/think I can catch something bigger than average size is the NSR.

[livinstone]

well in the lethbridge area we wish the lake were full of fish but the netters clean house and then when we drill 2 holes and 2 rods through the ice pretty much get nothing pretty soon the northern pike well be a catch and release or a draw fish.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Graffy91

Only place I expect/think I can catch something bigger than average size is the NSR.

why do you think that is?

[lippy]

Lots of good points here the main problem is not enough F&W officers in the province to ensure a slot size regulation is adhered to. Alberta has 300 plus fishermen per body of water while Saskatchewan has something like 2 per body of water.I think overall the walleye are recovering from the collapse and the harvest restrictions have worked but now is the time for some forward thinking and a change needs to be made. Slot size limits would work if there were enough field officers to enforce the regulation.. otherwise forget it. I also agree that management of the fisheries needs to change but enforcement and management go hand in hand and there needs to be the staff available to do their jobs properly..the government needs to spend more money on resource management.

[75ft Arborist]

Slot size=great idea!
Worked for other provinces, but wont work here!
Our govt will have to abandon its pay for each fish scam, through the tag system.
Maybe they should start looking at other provinces at whats working, and not whats failing here.
You don't have to be a biologist to see whats happening to our fisheries, just an avid outdoorsman.

[edsonfisherman]

Originally Posted by Graffy91

Only place I expect/think I can catch something bigger than average size is the NSR.

I have caught a 8lb walleye last year at Lac St.Anne, so you can catch them places other than NSR.

[Graffy91]

Originally Posted by 75ft Arborist

Slot size=great idea!
Worked for other provinces, but wont work here!
Our govt will have to abandon its pay for each fish scam, through the tag system.
Maybe they should start looking at other provinces at whats working, and not whats failing here.
You don't have to be a biologist to see whats happening to our fisheries, just an avid outdoorsman.

Someone who sees...

[Dale S]

Originally Posted by livinstone

well in the lethbridge area we wish the lake were full of fish but the netters clean house and then when we drill 2 holes and 2 rods through the ice pretty much get nothing pretty soon the northern pike well be a catch and release or a draw fish.

You don't have a clue.Our lakes in the south are the most productive in the province.You just have to know, when and how to catch them.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Dago

don't have a clue

Sums most of this thread up.

[Gust]

I think if we just got rid of walleye, all fisheries would become fan-friggin-tastic and there would be another benefit,, all those annoying SAWT fishers would have to go to Saskatchewan,, have you ever -poorly- timed breakfast at the A&W in Vulcan and the SAWT'ers are talking all puffy chested about which willy-wiggler will catch a walleye? and only from behind 18' and 150hp?

Get rid of the walleye and it will be like fishing in Shangrila.

Hate Walleye,,, one day down near Hays, 3 of us casting identical rigs in the exact same run at the exact same time from the exact same bucket of worms and targetting Goldeye, and what do I catch, one after another and another and another? Walleye, an Eye yes, but not the Eye of choice.

Death to Walleye!!!!!!

What did u guys think of the rotating keep schedule. Its a shame to close a lake for ten years. Why cant it be open for a weekend?

[Battleriverman]

A point on walleyes . As I understand it , a walleye has to be at least 43 cm long before it is mature to reproduce !This means that the fish is probably 4 years old. That is why there is a size limit on them. Also they , like cutthroats are very subceptable to overfishing !You can pretty well catch a walleye with every second cast in some lakes & rivers ! Walleye are the eating fish & goldeye are like eating cottenbatten soaked in kerosene -unless they are smoked. No I am not a biologist but I am knowledgeable about a few things & fishing is one of them ! Apply for some tags & get some walleye !

[Mutter87]

Any Walleye/Pike over 18" should have to be released
Any trout/similar species 14" or over should have be released
Any perch over 10" should have to be released.

Pike limit should be dropped to 1 at all existing Pike lakes that allow harvest.

We need to get out of the "That's a big fish I'm gonna keep it mentality". Looking at the "skin vs graphite mount" thread shows just how many people are uneducated on the subject.

Skin mounts of Fish should me made from 2013 onward Illegal to produce.

Poaching should be mandatory prison sentances and hefty fines. We need minimum sentances as well. Caught with Walleye at Pine coulee? 1 year minimum jail time.

What I am proposing will not make Fisherman pop a chubby, however It will create trophy waters and more sustainable populations of fish.

[B_Type13X2]

Originally Posted by Mutter87

Any Walleye/Pike over 18" should have to be released
Any trout/similar species 14" or over should have be released
Any perch over 10" should have to be released.

Pike limit should be dropped to 1 at all existing Pike lakes that allow harvest.

We need to get out of the "That's a big fish I'm gonna keep it mentality". Looking at the "skin vs graphite mount" thread shows just how many people are uneducated on the subject.

Skin mounts of Fish should me made from 2013 onward Illegal to produce.

Poaching should be mandatory prison sentances and hefty fines. We need minimum sentances as well. Caught with Walleye at Pine coulee? 1 year minimum jail time.

What I am proposing will not make Fisherman pop a chubby, however It will create trophy waters and more sustainable populations of fish.

Are you eating Glue? a 1 year prison sentence for a single walleye? how about just double the monetary penalty...

[Mutter87]

Originally Posted by B_Type13X2

Are you eating Glue? a 1 year prison sentence for a single walleye? how about just double the monetary penalty...

Nope, 1 year minimum. I guarntee people will just say "**** it, not worth the hassle". After a few people get tossed in the jail people will see we mean business when It comes to protecting our fisheries.

[B_Type13X2]

Originally Posted by Mutter87

Nope, 1 year minimum. I guarntee people will just say "**** it, not worth the hassle". After a few people get tossed in the jail people will see we mean business when It comes to protecting our fisheries.

Or people will start comparing our country to a police state and they would be right to do so. If they attempted to make this the law people would fight it tooth and nail. I'm a legal angler and even I would fight this as it would be stupidly expensive and the shear amount of negative press it would receive. Polygamy is technically illegal but there are colonies of people that do it up here and canada and do it publicly. Do you know why the fathers aren't arrested alot of the time? Because you get horrible media coverage of the dad being ripped away from his 16 crying children and 3 wives. Imagine how terrible the news coverage would be of a dad being ripped away from his family for a year over 1 fish.

Not to mention the expense of housing said person in jail for a year/ the expense to our social programs now that the wife and kids need welfare to make it by because daddy's in jail for taking a single walleye.

[EZM]

OK ............ I was avoiding getting into this one but I cannot stand it any longer .....

To apply any "one set of rules" to all fisheries would be a disaster. To think otherwise is simply foolish.

Rules, Regulations and, of course, Resource Management strategies must be specific to each watershed and reflect a long term plan. As with any plan, in order to gauge progress and monitor effectiveness, there needs to be constant measurement, adjustment etc.. (which of course takes more resources). With the limited amount of resources (meaning bios), these guys are forced to apply, in many cases, a "one shoe fits all" policy.

The only way to have a healthy, sustainable fishery is to invest more in our resources and get more guys out there .........

Blaming the SRD is useless, nonconstructive and short sighted given their constraints and challenges managing the population (impact) of fishing on so few lakes withing this province.

Here's my silly idea ........ I'd be in favor of higher licencing costs under the following pretense(s),

- we would like to lay out our expectations as sportsmen and fishermen,
- agree upon a goal (based on what we can or cannot realistically accomplish)
- and have the ability to provide input into any changes in the strategy as we move forward

If we REALLY want change, let's be prepared to move beyond "brain storming" and providing "clever one shoe fits all" ideas and study the issue, understand the issue, develop realistic expectations and support (yes with $) the program.......

My 2 cents ..........

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by B_Type13X2

Are you eating Glue? a 1 year prison sentence for a single walleye? how about just double the monetary penalty...

Thankfully in this country everyone is entitled to an opinion, and free to speak it.

Regardless of it's accuracy or worth.

Keep in mind that Mutter is a self-proclaimed Fascist. Knowing that will help make sense of the inspiration behind his commentary.

The legal system is more or less designed on a balance of debts.

You cannot be punished in excess of your crime.

A pickerel from PCR is worth almost nothing, so, a fine of $100 would more than offset the infraction.



A year in jail at a cost to tax-payers of ~$60,000 for the crime of poaching a fish worth about $2 is insane.

[BeeGuy]

Given the paucity of water, and the hordes of fishermen in this province, there are still many opportunities, and quality fish to be had.

Most times I go out, I don't see any other fishermen, and I catch nice fish.