How many Use Mortgage Brokers

[Dean2]

The reason I thought to ask this question is I am helping out my in laws with a housing change and the attendant banking arrangements.

Their long time Mortgage Broker is telling them their BMO mortgage is not portable and there is no way to avoid paying the payout penalty on this house when they sell it and buy another place. He is also telling them they will have to take a brand new mortgage at a rate much higher than their current 3.1%.

So where to start, I read the mortgage terms, mortgage is portable and BMO will waive the penalty on the old mortgage if they port this one or if they take a new one through BMO within 90 days of paying out the current one. In-laws go into BMO branch, meet with loans officer, and confirm this is all accurate. Broker is clearly feeding them wrong info because he earns no commission if they port their existing mortgage or do the deal direct with the bank to avoid the payout penalty. Do a little more digging, the GREAT renewal rate this broker got them of 3.1%, should have been 2.49% at the time the mortgage was renewed. 3.1% was the full posted rate for BMO at the time of renewal.

If you want to know what actual mortgage rates are at any given time, check ATB's website. They post the true, no negotiation bottom line rates. The other banks will all match these rates, despite their "posted" rates being much higher. The problem with having another bank match the rate is if you pay the mortgage off early you will pay a MUCH higher Interest Rate Differential penalty because they will calculate in the bogus "discount" when calculating the payout penalty. ATB also has the industry best prepayment terms on their fixed/closed and variable/closed mortgages,, of 20% of original principal per year no charge and 20% a year increase in monthly payments with no charge.

So why do brokers sell your mortgage to a particular Bank or mortgage company, and why do they not necessarily get you the best rate or the best terms and conditions on a new or renewal mortgage. To understand that you need to look at how a broker is paid. The bank or mortgage company pays the broker between .5% and 2.75% of the face amount of the mortgage. (This is a range of $2,500 to $13,750 on a $500,000 mortgage).

So, what accounts for the large difference in commission rates. Why would one place pay so much more for a mortgage than another one. Well, the place that has the higher payout penalties, lowest prepayment options, some you cannot payout early at all, and those with the largest risk adjusted spreads (higher equity, better credit rating, lower TDS all reduce risk so someone with good ratings in all of these areas and paying a higher rate is worth more to the institution) will pay the largest commissions.

Some of the top banks, like RBC, will not buy from brokers because there has been so many issues with brokers providing poor or plain wrong info to clients. There is also an inherent conflict for a broker; to maximise his income he needs to give the client the worst deal he can actually sell them, whether it is higher rates or less favourable terms or a combination of the two, while keeping them believing they are getting a great deal.

The only way to know for sure is to know what your broker is getting paid for your mortgage. If it is over .75% (3/4 of 1%) there are better deals out there that you could get by going direct to the bank your self. That and never let a broker negotiate your renewal mortgage rate. Talk direct to the bank and check the ATB site to know what the bottom rates should be.

Be interesting to hear what I am sure are many opposing views to this.

[Gande]

I've never used a mortgage broker- just dealt straight with the bank. For better or worse, I'm not sure.

That was an interesting read, thank you.

[trouter]

Our family is currently selling our house. We have had three offers on the house that have gone to closing day or the day before. ATB has been the financial institution on all three offers and they have pulled the plug on the three buyers. All three buyers have paid for inspection and waived that part only to have ATB deny financing last min. I live in a small town with little options for banks or brokers and ATB used to be the go to for the area. Looks like you have vested interest in ATB, so i will say to everyone shop around, read the fine print and if one bank / broker wont do something the other will.

[bergman]

Mortgage brokers can get you really good deals. So can banks. And they can both offer really terrible deals, too.

I used a broker for my first mortgage. Great lady, got us a great rate with good terms. When it was time to renew we looked at a broker, but then our lender offered us the same or better terms to keep us on. So we accepted.

Bottom line: Treat mortgage lender or bank like you would treat a home contractor. Get quotes from two or three different lenders and pick the best one. I wouldn't build a garage without a few quotes, so why would I finance my house with a single quoted option?

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by trouter

Our family is currently selling our house. We have had three offers on the house that have gone to closing day or the day before. ATB has been the financial institution on all three offers and they have pulled the plug on the three buyers. All three buyers have paid for inspection and waived that part only to have ATB deny financing last min. I live in a small town with little options for banks or brokers and ATB used to be the go to for the area. Looks like you have vested interest in ATB, so i will say to everyone shop around, read the fine print and if one bank / broker wont do something the other will.

No vested interest in ATB, though I did use to work there. I also worked for BMO and RBC. Just letting people know where to find TRUE posted rates on ATB website as it is one of the few places that doesn't put up inflated rates and negotiate down.

As you said in terms of getting a deal done, if ATB won't do the deals, for sure go check out Royal, BMO whatever. Bank doesn't have to be right in your town to deal with them. The one place where a broker can be useful is he can shop more than one bank for you, but nothing stops you from doing the same thing. You can make application at all six if you want to.

Of the three buyers that were declined are you telling me they applied at other banks and were also declined, or they just dropped it after being told no by ATB? If the other Banks are also declining the buyers, do you know if the issue is the house or the Buyer's qualifications. To be fair, Edson isn't that small, it has ATB, Royal, Scotia, CIBC, Credit Union TD and a couple of mortgage brokers so I am having trouble believing the issue is lack of choice. (Orest Krywulak is the RBC manager in Edson and has been since about 1985, when I transferred from the Edson RBC. Good guy to send people to if ATB isn't cooperating).

[Twisted Canuck]

My broker has always gotten me a better deal than posted rates. On renewals, my bank has always offered me something slightly lower than posted rates. My broker has always offered something that is .19-.45% lower over the years. I tell my bank what rate I can get, they argue and cry but don't match...so I take my mortgage elsewhere. Invariably, Bank A comes back and tries to entice me back with the rate they originally could have matched. It's all a big game. I have tended to take short term variable rate mortgages with rates generally a half or 3/4 % below prime. At one time, my mortgage rate was 1.5%. I pay weekly, and it gets paid down quickly.

As far as negotiating with banks, I was sitting in my loans officer's office, trying to get them to match a rate posted online from a competitor (that I dealt with). She absolutely refused to do it, and told me that I was going to have a great big hassle getting them to write it, and have to submit 5 years of financials because I'm self employed and blah blah. I told her to go talk to her manager about matching rate, and while she did that I would call my broker. Which I did. From her office. She came back in ten minutes later with a big fat 'no way!', while I was still on the phone....my broker already had a deal done, I just said 'do it', hung up, shook the ladies hand and told her that if she ever wanted to treat me like a valued client, I'd consider doing business with them again.

The really funny part of that, is that my mortgage got placed with Maple Trust, and six months later they were bought up by Scotia, and my mortgage ended right back on her desk! Life is funny that way.

I'm sure there are some greasy brokers out there, no different than car salesmen.

[R3illy]

my main bank has been the worst to deal with regarding my one property. Come renewal they are always giving me higher rates then anywhere.

I have bought 2 additional properties and went to my bank first but both times ended up using a mortgage broker as it was easier, quicker and cheaper. Much better customer service.

I'm curious if in this scenario if your using your banks mortgage broker. If that's the case they aren't an actual broker as they work directly for a bank and wont waste anytime helping with a renewal.

[Dean2]

Twistedc

Not trying to give u a hard time but your broker isn't doing all that good. Last three rental property mortgages I renewed were at 1.9 off rbc posted 5 year, 2.69 5 year at atb. In 1st week of July and 1.7 off TD posted 5 year just 2 days ago.

I don't keep all my eggs in one basket either. Givea u better negotiating power.

[nast70]

Our second house in Calgary was bought using a broker who was reffered to us by our realtor. When we moved from Calgary to Edmonton and had to port our mortgage, we got hit with an extra fee that was around $3000.00 our broker didn't tell us about. It was our fault be young and dumb not reading the finest of prints, but in our defence we asked him point blank if there was an issue or cost associated with porting that mortgage. We know the chances were high we would be moving within the term, as my father in law was very ill and could not look after their house anymore.
We actually sued him about it and settled out of court for half the charge. we had a witness who was there when we asked about the possibility of porting.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Twistedc

Not trying to give u a hard time but your broker isn't doing all that good. Last three rental property mortgages I renewed were at 1.9 off rbc posted 5 year, 2.69 5 year at atb. In 1st week of July and 1.7 off TD posted 5 year just 2 days ago.

I don't keep all my eggs in one basket either. Givea u better negotiating power.

I think if you look at what what 1-2 year variable rates were, compared to 5 year fixed, you would find that 3/4 % under prime is comparable to 1.9% off a 5 year fixed rate. In the last 12 years, my rate(s) have been between low of 1.5% and 2.69%. The last go round, variable rates were higher than the fixed, so I did a 5 year fixed rate of 2.69% for 5 years (which if I remember correctly was .3 % under posted at the time. Maybe not greatest, but still way less than ROI on my portfolio). I think that's not a bad rate overall for the last 12 years.

And no, keeping eggs all in one basket is a bad idea, which is why I have a balanced portfolio of equities and securities, as well as my property. And then there are the more non traditional investments like collectible firearms, original fine art, and vintage whiskies. You have to keep it a bit interesting! I just saw a bottle of Whisky I bought 5 years ago for $425 sell for $1800 on an auction last week. Wish all my investments could appreciate like that!

Edit: I do know that there are better rates to be had, but most of the people that I know who are getting those rates have a net worth with an extra zero (or 2) behind mine. Until your net worth is over $5M it seems like you have to fight a lot harder for good rates. My observation anyway. I have a ways to go before I am there, but it's a work in progress.

[fishtank]

we use a broker and got us the best rate then we had with my own bank .

[sharpstick]

Dean2. I assume you are a mortgage broker?

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by sharpstick

Dean2. I assume you are a mortgage broker?

Nope. other side of the fence, retired Banker. It is why I have been trying to pass on some tips on how to keep your broker in line if you use one and how to check to see if he is getting you as good a deal as he says he is.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Nope. other side of the fence, retired Banker. It is why I have been trying to pass on some tips on how to keep your broker in line if you use one and how to check to see if he is getting you as good a deal as he says he is.

Wouldn't any rate under posted be an improvement for most though? Being a retired banker, you probably have a much better perspective of what banks can REALLY do, but for the average person who doesn't have that knowledge and perhaps financial levarage (high net worth, credit rating 850+), a rate at. 3% or better under prime is still a step in the right direction, no? When I was at 3/4% under prime and paying 1 1/2% on my mortgage, and my secured line of credit at 2.25%, I was most ecstatic!

I think most people could get better rates than they are overall, but to get the absolute BEST rates, maybe takes a bit of inside knowledge which you seem to have, as well as that higher net worth that seems to get you the preferential treatment.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Wouldn't any rate under posted be an improvement for most though? Being a retired banker, you probably have a much better perspective of what banks can REALLY do, but for the average person who doesn't have that knowledge and perhaps financial levarage (high net worth, credit rating 850+), a rate at. 3% or better under prime is still a step in the right direction, no? When I was at 3/4% under prime and paying 1 1/2% on my mortgage, and my secured line of credit at 2.25%, I was most ecstatic!

I think most people could get better rates than they are overall, but to get the absolute BEST rates, maybe takes a bit of inside knowledge which you seem to have, as well as that higher net worth that seems to get you the preferential treatment.

Don't get me wrong, I think you are doing pretty good. You won't see a rate better than prime -1% on any variable mortgage or line of credit and you would need at least 50% equity to get that kind of a rate, P-.75% is very decent on a variable mtg or Line of Credit.

Where I think people leave a lot on the table is the rate below posted on fixed rate mortgages and loans, whether new or renewals. That is why I passed on the info about the ATB site and there no negotiation rates. It gives people a place to check the rate they are being quoted. If you can match or beat that posted ATB rate then you are doing just fine. For example; They currently have a 5 year rate of 3.09. Most of the other banks best posted 5 year fixed are from 3.69 to 4.49 depending on the bank. That means you have room to negotiate from .6 to 1.4 off the Bank's higher posted rate.

My other point and I don't think I am making it very clear, is that if there is ANY chance you will need to pay out your mortgage early the terms of the payout penalty are a VERY big deal. The more you negotiated off the posted rate when you took the mortgage the bigger your payout penalty is going to be. This can cost you tens of thousands extra at payout. There are ways around, (take an open mortgage, choose the bank with the best penalty structure and/or the one with the lowest posted rate so the discount from posted is the least etc.) it but you need to look at this seriously before you sign for just the lowest rate or the biggest discount off of posted rate.

These are ALL the things a really good broker, and there are some, would be helping you with. Unfortunately many, like the one my in-laws have been using for 20 years, are just interested in earning the biggest commission, and that definitely does not work in your favour.

[Twisted Canuck]

Gotcha, and the info probably will be very helpful to many on the forum. I agree that the banks will try to bamboozle many, and not be wiling to negotiate. It is the old 'do you need the mortgage, or want the mortgage' leverage. If you need it, desperately, you will take what the banks will give you. If you just want a mortgage, but are in a place where you can play hard ball (I once paid off my mortgage on renewal totally because my line of credit was a better rate than the bank was willing to give, then with clear title my broker got me a fantastic rate)...you can do much better.

Your point on early payout is valid for sure, one of the reasons I always preferred an open variable. Put me in the driver's seat with how I wanted to manage properties and cash flow.

[farmerbrown]

There is some great information on negotiating financing on this thread. Glad I don't need any but there sure seems to be some shisters out there.

[Rustynail21]

Hey Guys,

I'm still in the industry and have been for 20 years (just did the math on that, wow thats a long time). A lot of the info on this thread is dated. The chance of a broker getting paid 2.75% of your mortgage are long gone and it was only in the hay days. Now the $/hr is almost half of average its been in my working life.

A good broker will find you the best deal for you out there. Some people only will qualify with a bank due to the latest batch of government rule changes. Banks might have a lower rate right now. Are there higher penalties? Yup. Is it better then buying a property 20% lighter in value? Is it worth paying an extra .2% and get a mortgage with a much more manageable penalty? All questions about suitability.

The work brokers are doing to get you approved due to government regulation is something the average customer won't know besides the pain it is to gather the docs. A good broker is reviewing all those documents and putting together a story, then helping the lender sell it to the insurance company. It is way harder now then it has been since 2002 or so.

Flip side a bank has one product to sell. They do it well and can get exceptions at times. Are they going to tell you that right now someone down the street is cheaper? Are they going to make an exception for someone that has all there banking with them vs someone that has their eggs in different baskets? How about if you did move everything over?

Remember, everyone has someone different they ultimately work for. Some times its Shareholders, sometimes its you the customer. Important to realize the difference as it can be huge.

Anybody has any other questions, don't hesitate and I'll do the best I can for you. I'm not brokering but my role is still very much in the industry. Not looking to sell anything but I hate seeing people make decisions on information that might not be current.

[Rustynail21]

Also just to further post about renewals, banks are aggressively chasing renewals, very few are working with brokers on renewals at all, most are cutting them out.

If there is a rate jump at renewal its usually one of two things, attempt at profit by the bank or a change in the customers situation (i.e. worse credit) that created the jump in rate. Very very few lenders up the rate and pay the balance to a broker if any, especially traditional lenders.

Also note most lenders commissions on deals are consistent now, although some have quick close or discount rate options to compete with the banks lower rates. They may have reduced options like less prepayment etc, but again, vs the banks increased payout penalty. Usually the lower the rate means you are giving something up.

Also BMO just started dealing with brokers in the past few months again. RBC doesn't deal with brokers directly, but don't be fooled, Dominion Securities is one of the biggest sources of funds for the mortgage industry through the monoline lenders. They just like the exclusivity of the brand for their internal reps.

Again everyone in the industry has a place, just ask the right questions. There are great brokers and great bankers. Unfortunately the opposite is true as well. You ask the right questions and you'll weed them out very quickly.

As for getting the best rates, it used to be based on credit, then on dp, then on overall strength. Now the best rate goes to those who put the least down (under 20% downpayment), since they get a low rate, but are also paying an insurance premium which guarantees the lender against loss. Seems counter intuitive, but its where we are today. The next set of rule changes will level the playing field as banks have an advantage right now, but all that does is put consumers at a disadvantage.

Government has had more impact in this industry in the past 5 years then you'd believe.

Just a note on my background, 3 big banks for a combined 12 years of my 20 total in mortgage lending.

[urban rednek]

Mortgage Brokers are similar to Financial Advisors; they will both tell you what a great job they are doing for you while trying to get their hands on as much of your money as possible.

Deal direct as much as possible.

[Dan Foss]

Originally Posted by Rustynail21

As for getting the best rates, it used to be based on credit, then on dp, then on overall strength. Now the best rate goes to those who put the least down (under 20% downpayment), since they get a low rate, but are also paying an insurance premium which guarantees the lender against loss. Seems counter intuitive, but its where we are today. The next set of rule changes will level the playing field as banks have an advantage right now, but all that does is put consumers at a disadvantage.

Good posts, very interesting thread read... Rusty can you elaborate on bolded in the part i quoted... What additional government changes are you forseeing ?

[Bighorn River]

My mortgage was up for renewal and I did some research and pushed hard with CIBC to lower my rate.

I took that offer to a broker and asked if they could do better, and was surprised when they told me that they couldn't find a better deal and I should take the bank's offer.

[bergman]

Originally Posted by Dan Foss

Good posts, very interesting thread read... Rusty can you elaborate on bolded in the part i quoted... What additional government changes are you forseeing ?

One things is that there are additional stress test requirements in the pipes for all new and renewing mortgages. Don't know how it will all play out, but looks like every mortgage holder will have to qualify for rate levels 2-3% above posted rates. If the Lib's go through with it, expect a huge cluster-fudge down the road, especially on renewals for people who took out equity.

(This is from Garth Turner at greaterfool.ca. He's definitely an RE doomer, but his facts are there. And he was a former liberal MP, so I think his read on the current govt is pretty good.)

[The Elkster]

Originally Posted by Rustynail21

As for getting the best rates, it used to be based on credit, then on dp, then on overall strength. Now the best rate goes to those who put the least down (under 20% downpayment), since they get a low rate, but are also paying an insurance premium which guarantees the lender against loss. Seems counter intuitive, but its where we are today. ....

Can confirm. We looked into a mortgage for a house where we'd have over 70% equity. Were quoted higher rates than someone putting 5% down and likely no other assets to their name. That is absolutely frickin' ridiculous. We have a spotless record as well as meaningful assets aside from RE. Its time to kill CMHC and start mandating banks lend base on REAL risks. We are setting up for a huge cluster F* as long as we shelter banks from risk and let CMHC manipulate the market. We have our own Freddie and Fannie Mae in the making. The crash is coming and its largely because of CMHC bullsh!t. And taxpayers are going to pay for this socialized risk BS.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by The Elkster

Can confirm. We looked into a mortgage for a house where we'd have over 70% equity. Were quoted higher rates than someone putting 5% down and likely no other assets to their name. That is absolutely frickin' ridiculous. We have a spotless record as well as meaningful assets aside from RE. Its time to kill CMHC and start mandating banks lend base on REAL risks. We are setting up for a huge cluster F* as long as we shelter banks from risk and let CMHC manipulate the market. We have our own Freddie and Fannie Mae in the making. The crash is coming and its largely because of CMHC bullsh!t. And taxpayers are going to pay for this socialized risk BS.

Lower rates on insured mortgages has been true for at least 35 years, this is nothing new. A Bank does not need to set aside reserves or capital for insured mortgages and never have needed to. For this reason their cost of funds is lower and the spread is better on any insured mortgage, not just CMHC. Genworth still offers a 5% down product to certain lenders and there are a ton of other insurers in the game. Even if the Feds close up CMHC there are others lined up to take their place.

As to Rustynail's comments the info I provided is out of date, you are incorrect. There are still lots of mid and high risk lenders paying very high commissions to brokers for placing sub prime and high risk mortgages with them. On top of that, the Banks do not pay the same rate across the board nor do they pay the same rate for all deals. Even going from .5% to .75% commission makes a big difference. It means $3750 instead of $2500 for the same deal and that is significant incentive for many brokers.

The Federal Gov has been progressively tightening up on borrower qualifications for quite a while, as in more than 10 years it is just that they have been getting far more aggressive about it lately, because they are worried about overheated markets in Vancouver and Toronto. They have done this through CMHC and OSFI, so while it hits the big Banks tons of other lenders are completely unaffected. The Feds are also unwilling to move interest rates up which is THE primary driver of our overheated housing markets and excessive consumer debt. When debt costs almost nothing even Canadians will take on lots of it.

The Feds are attacking affordability so they don't have to address the systemic issues of lack of supply, high speculative demand and well healed foreign buyers driving up the house prices in Vancouver and Toronto. This however is also happening in London, Sydney, LA, New York and any other major world city where supply is heavily constrained. All the money moving out of the Arab countries, most African countries, China, Korea and all the other political hot spots has to have somewhere to go. Parking it in real estate in politically stable, affluent countries is safe and VERY hard to trace. Immigration and offshore money has a FAR larger reach and effect than most people are aware of.

Government intervention in the housing industry is going to result in a really BIG drop in sales and prices because the effects are cumulative and take a long time to take hold. They are going to find that they have far over shot the mark. There are lots of people in Vancouver and Toronto trying desperately to unload their homes before the big bust hits, and already there is a big scarcity of buyers. Once the bottom falls out there it is highly likely to have a cascade effect that is going to make a real mess.

[Tfng]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Government intervention in the housing industry is going to result in a really BIG drop in sales and prices because the effects are cumulative and take a long time to take hold. They are going to find that they have far over shot the mark. There are lots of people in Vancouver and Toronto trying desperately to unload their homes before the big bust hits, and already there is a big scarcity of buyers. Once the bottom falls out there it is highly likely to have a cascade effect that is going to make a real mess.

How big of an effect would you predict in the smaller cities of Alberta? Over what time line?

[lmtada]

Bubble has already burst. Toronto prices down 20% since April. About to become worse. BOC second interest rate hike in October (7 weeks). Plus stress tests are ramping up. BOOM


http://www.greaterfool.ca/2017/08/16/milestones/


Sent from my iPad

Originally Posted by Dean2

Lower rates on insured mortgages has been true for at least 35 years, this is nothing new. A Bank does not need to set aside reserves or capital for insured mortgages and never have needed to. For this reason their cost of funds is lower and the spread is better on any insured mortgage, not just CMHC. Genworth still offers a 5% down product to certain lenders and there are a ton of other insurers in the game. Even if the Feds close up CMHC there are others lined up to take their place.

As to Rustynail's comments the info I provided is out of date, you are incorrect. There are still lots of mid and high risk lenders paying very high commissions to brokers for placing sub prime and high risk mortgages with them. On top of that, the Banks do not pay the same rate across the board nor do they pay the same rate for all deals. Even going from .5% to .75% commission makes a big difference. It means $3750 instead of $2500 for the same deal and that is significant incentive for many brokers.

The Federal Gov has been progressively tightening up on borrower qualifications for quite a while, as in more than 10 years it is just that they have been getting far more aggressive about it lately, because they are worried about overheated markets in Vancouver and Toronto. They have done this through CMHC and OSFI, so while it hits the big Banks tons of other lenders are completely unaffected. The Feds are also unwilling to move interest rates up which is THE primary driver of our overheated housing markets and excessive consumer debt. When debt costs almost nothing even Canadians will take on lots of it.

The Feds are attacking affordability so they don't have to address the systemic issues of lack of supply, high speculative demand and well healed foreign buyers driving up the house prices in Vancouver and Toronto. This however is also happening in London, Sydney, LA, New York and any other major world city where supply is heavily constrained. All the money moving out of the Arab countries, most African countries, China, Korea and all the other political hot spots has to have somewhere to go. Parking it in real estate in politically stable, affluent countries is safe and VERY hard to trace. Immigration and offshore money has a FAR larger reach and effect than most people are aware of.

Government intervention in the housing industry is going to result in a really BIG drop in sales and prices because the effects are cumulative and take a long time to take hold. They are going to find that they have far over shot the mark. There are lots of people in Vancouver and Toronto trying desperately to unload their homes before the big bust hits, and already there is a big scarcity of buyers. Once the bottom falls out there it is highly likely to have a cascade effect that is going to make a real mess.

[Dean2]

Alberta and most small town house prices don't suffer the same extent of over blown prices as the big cities. Small towns it is about the economy and jobs versus house supply. They will show a far less dramatic drop but the tightening credit requirements will affect demand even there. The less people that qualify the harder it is to sell and prices drop. If enough can't sell they start to hand back the keys when the value becomes less than the mtg or they can't make the payments.

Iwould not worry too much as long as my house was under 450k and not in a major city.

[Dean2]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by lmtada

Bubble has already burst. Toronto prices down 20% since April. About to become worse. BOC second interest rate hike in October (7 weeks). Plus stress tests are ramping up. BOOM


http://www.greaterfool.ca/2017/08/16/milestones/

The bubble has stopped getting bigger for sure. All that has come off the table so far though is the increase over the last 12 months in TO. That isn't the full bust yet. When prices in TO and Van are off 60% that will be the bust and that is when the big tidal wave will hit.

[lmtada]

Real estate Cartel have been changing the Goal posts. Goddard report.

http://www.howestreet.com/2017/08/14...k-home-prices/


[QUOTE=Dean2;3605099]

The bubble has stopped getting bigger for sure. All that has come off the table so far though is the increase over the last 12 months in TO. That isn't the full bust yet. When prices in TO and Van are off 60% that will be the bust and that is when the big tidal wave will hit.