How bad does it have to get before Albertans decide separation is the best option?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Strait Shooter

Couple of points, the Feds. don't own the railroad tracks, the vast majority are owned by CP and CN with a right of easement 100 ft. on either side of the track for expansion. The Feds. may own the land but the railroads were built by CN and CP through a partial land swap agreement that has been in place for over 100 years. Ever wonder why there's a beautiful CP hotel in the heart of Banff and every CDN. major city? They didn't have to buy the property, they were given first dibs on the choice sites.

71% of oil and gas revenue is exported out of the province already, foreign entities may not be inspired to take on more trouble to increase that return.

The Trans-Mtn. pipeline is scheduled to triple the flow of crude oil to the W. coast for export shortly, taking the flow from 300k bpd to around 890k bpd. The Feds. currently own that pipeline, what u think will happen if AB. takes a hostile attitude to negotiations when their end goal is to drastically reduce oil sands production?

You may find if you look deeper that rail lines are federal lands and yes they can be privately owned… just like your house sits on Alberta lands and is privately owned.

[W921]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

In what way are FN in Alberta separate countries? Please list.

What do FN have in Alberta that we don’t have as far as rights that aren’t part of a treaty? A binding contractual agreement?

I'm no expert on this but are they not exempt from all these gun laws ? Don't they need guns for traditional lifestyle?
Dont they have their own police and justice? I dont think our police are even allowed on reservation? Our police certainly looks the other way when they are off reserve.
Seems like they can block railroads, highways or do whatever they want.
Its not like we could build a highway or pipeline on their nation without paying them off .
I thought they were their own nation within our nation? This is what American Indians are saying on utube.
Are Indians paying tobacco and other taxes? I was at casino in Lethbridge today and all natives in front of casino smoking.
You think Ottawa would ever go after indigenous business like Alberta industry?

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Sporty

At best Alberta would be another Puerto Rico, shortchanged in federation. We're having droughts of our own, imagine sending the fresh water that we need to supply the US? Easier for folks who want to be a US state to just move to the US.



We already have that risk, if the US wanted to take over our resources, Canada would roll over.

To answer your question. From what I understand it would take a total of seven dams in the Rocky Mountain "trench" and the diversion of one major river which currently dumps its water into the Artic ocean. Trillions of meters of fresh water for a state which rules the USA congress. More then enough to justify the expense and political fall out to bring fresh water to the western states and California.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

It’s fiction to think we have the leverage in a separation.

Canada does own the national parks. The land IS NOT owned by Alberta.

A. Ownership
The Government of Canada is the owner of the property by virtue of the British North America Act (1867). In 1998, the Parks Canada Agency Act established the Parks Canada Agency to operate and manage Canada’s national historic sites and national parks, under the direction of a Chief Executive Officer reporting to the Parliament of Canada through a Minister nominated by the Prime Minister.

Your expectation is that Alberta can stomp their feet and whine and blockage to get their way doesn’t fly. International agreements for access will be obeyed and not flip flopped on… because in the reciprocal Alberta would be royally hooped.

If we waste our time chasing a true separation it will be time wasted. If we seek expanded power like and even better than Quebec including better financial obligations… it would be a huge win. Tack on better representation in Parliament… best case scenario.

There is no way in heck that we can be better off over all as a separate isolated and land locked nation that is butting heads as you want to do.

Never happen and no… there would be no air lifting FN out of reserves. You are in a dream land.

We have as much leverage as the rest of Canada would have. That is not fiction that is reality. Any leverage they have we would have. Maybe I haven’t thought of everything though; so what leverage would Canada have that we don’t?

I haven’t found anything stating the federal government owns the lands of national parks. I have read they operate them with the help and approval of the provinces. They own the monuments and infrastructure but not the land. By no means am I an expert here though. Feel free to educate me.

I never said we blockade, I said we have the ability to isolate Canada from itself it tried to isolate us. Funny how you say that we can’t cause transportation issues because of these international treaties. Then in the next paragraph you speak of all the problems of a landlocked nation. Is there agreements or not?

Speaking of a landlocked nation. We would be much better off as a landlocked country than a landlocked province. As a country we will keep our funds and can’t be controlled by the Laurentian elite. I mean what are they gonna do, block pipelines? Boy I would hate if that were to happen. We would be so much better off.

If the reserves vote to stay within Canada and we secure our borders, air-lifting may be the only option depending on our visa and passport requirements.

Once again though, we can talk about trivial hurdles that could and would be negotiated and settled upon; but is rather irrelevant at this juncture. So for the third time can you give me any reasons why we are better off staying in Canada? Besides apathy, fear, convenience, or mislead patriotism.

[W921]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

To answer your question. From what I understand it would take a total of seven dams in the Rocky Mountain "trench" and the diversion of one major river which currently dumps its water into the Artic ocean. Trillions of meters of fresh water for a state which rules the USA congress. More then enough to justify the expense and political fall out to bring fresh water to the western states and California.

Why not develop this for Alberta? Water is money. We could turn Alberta into garden of Eden. Well if we could get rid of the snakes.
Unemployable dippers and urban liberal aristocrates who have never even seen or heard tell of this rocky mountain trench would be all against this because God forbid normal Albertans get any benefit from it.

[Big Grey Wolf]

It appears some have forgot their physics lessons from school. Our major rivers with by far majority of Alberta water "will not flow uphill' to dem americans. It All flows to Slavey and Mckenzie rivers in the north.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by cranky

This province is voting more left all the time. Two biggest cities voted for left leaders . Chances are eventually NDP would get to govern Alta.even if we separated. I think that would be worse than if we stayed part of Canada. Not sure how that would work. Might be too late. Tell me it ain’t so.

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that if Alberta separated, many of the freeloaders and woke would leave, to stay in Canada, to continue their woke ways. And some right leaning people in other provinces might leave and come to Alberta, because they will see it as a way to get awake from Canada, before it implodes into bankruptcy.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

We have as much leverage as the rest of Canada would have. That is not fiction that is reality. Any leverage they have we would have. Maybe I haven’t thought of everything though; so what leverage would Canada have that we don’t?

there will be legal requirements to follow that Alberta can’t contest such as potentially rail lines operating through Alberta but not stopping unless Canada agrees, such as FN rights, such as National Parks

I haven’t found anything stating the federal government owns the lands of national parks. I have read they operate them with the help and approval of the provinces. They own the monuments and infrastructure but not the land. By no means am I an expert here though. Feel free to educate me.

I posted it above but you just need to look harder. Ownership of Federal Parks is Federal. Land ownership and operations is Federally controlled.

I never said we blockade, I said we have the ability to isolate Canada from itself it tried to isolate us. Funny how you say that we can’t cause transportation issues because of these international treaties. Then in the next paragraph you speak of all the problems of a landlocked nation. Is there agreements or not?

my comment was in relationship to once an agreement is finalized… Alberta can’t just blockade a federal railroad to get something additional. It had sounded like you believed we could pull that trigger

Speaking of a landlocked nation. We would be much better off as a landlocked country than a landlocked province. As a country we will keep our funds and can’t be controlled by the Laurentian elite. I mean what are they gonna do, block pipelines? Boy I would hate if that were to happen. We would be so much better off.

If we have a problem now we can go to court and within Canada we have equal rights and protection under the constitution. If another country sued us or took us to court we can just ignore them. It’s absolutely not the same. Yes… we can keep more money however we may be stuck with paying high fees to B.C. or Canada to take product through a pipeline in another country. Pipeline problems may take longer to fix. Additional environmental laws that we can’t control can have long term unintended consequences to us as a separate country. Costs to run Alberta as a stand alone country will climb. Border security will be difficult.

If the reserves vote to stay within Canada and we secure our borders, air-lifting may be the only option depending on our visa and passport requirements.

that would not be feasible nor a likely outcome. The courts would likely deem FN remaining part of Canada should they so chose and they would also retain all their treaty rights to move about and harvest etc. That would be a fact and not something we can negotiate away unless FN wish to give up their freebies and rights and special status and just become part of Alberta… and to do that it would mean paying lump sums to individuals within FN who vote to join Alberta. The social welfare cycle would end and they would need to fully integrate into Albertan society on an equal footing.

Once again though, we can talk about trivial hurdles that could and would be negotiated and settled upon; but is rather irrelevant at this juncture. So for the third time can you give me any reasons why we are better off staying in Canada? Besides apathy, fear, convenience, or mislead patriotism.

No one would likely argue that Alberta is getting hooped in many respects and things need to change. The question is change within Canada and similar to Quebec or nuclear change and upheaval and becoming a country.

Notes in red

It’s an interesting topic and we likely both agree Federalism so far has not treated Albertans fairly.

Originally Posted by W921

I'm no expert on this but are they not exempt from all these gun laws ? Don't they need guns for traditional lifestyle?



Dont they have their own police and justice? I dont think our police are even allowed on reservation? Our police certainly looks the other way when they are off reserve.

in some instances they have a local police force and in most it’s RCMP. No different than other communities. They don’t have their own justice as they follow Canadian Law however they can have different incarceration options to try a cultural way of changing their criminal paths. Prisons also have different programs for different peoples personalities and past upbringing.

Seems like they can block railroads, highways or do whatever they want.
Its not like we could build a highway or pipeline on their nation without paying them off .

sometimes it seems like different rules for different people. Definitely politics and wokeness plays a factor here in some places. In Alberta right now what you say is not true insofar as blockades are concerned. In Ontario… they’ve learned some lessons slowly. Yes… if you want to access lands then you need an agreement and as it’s federal lands Alberta Surface Rights board doesn’t apply

I thought they were their own nation within our nation? This is what American Indians are saying on utube.

Quebec is a nation within Canada… and they remain a province so…

Are Indians paying tobacco and other taxes? I was at casino in Lethbridge today and all natives in front of casino smoking.

You may not like treaties that were signed many, many years ago… however they are there and must be respected. Provide a scenario that would be better for FN to join Alberta. Convince us and I mean it is a tough question and I don’t have a good answer myself as there are lots of bouncing balls to consider.

You think Ottawa would ever go after indigenous business like Alberta industry?

No… Ottawa is scare to do anything anti woke… however they did go to court over payments to FN kids for social welfare decisions, they have also screwed up the safe water file and many others.

[W921]

Sundance
You may not like treaties that were signed many, many years ago… however they are there and must be respected. Provide a scenario that would be better for FN to join Alberta. Convince us and I mean it is a tough question and I don’t have a good answer myself as there are lots of bouncing balls to consider.

Reply
I'm not a separatist. I think we will only split votes . Danielle Smith is probably best leader we have ever had so I'm not going to vote against her but if Danielle started to go in a separatist direction I would as well.
I'm also not for screwing over natives or anybody else. I just want the same rights and liberties for all of us.
Less federal power. Even provincially we have to much government regulations.

[W921]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

It appears some have forgot their physics lessons from school. Our major rivers with by far majority of Alberta water "will not flow uphill' to dem americans. It All flows to Slavey and Mckenzie rivers in the north.

I'm sure something could be done if the will was there. Forty years ago if someone would have said or tried to describe smart phones of today. People would have said impossible and made fun of whoever said it.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by W921

Sundance
You may not like treaties that were signed many, many years ago… however they are there and must be respected. Provide a scenario that would be better for FN to join Alberta. Convince us and I mean it is a tough question and I don’t have a good answer myself as there are lots of bouncing balls to consider.

Reply
I'm not a separatist. I think we will only split votes . Danielle Smith is probably best leader we have ever had so I'm not going to vote against her but if Danielle started to go in a separatist direction I would as well.
I'm also not for screwing over natives or anybody else. I just want the same rights and liberties for all of us.
Less federal power. Even provincially we have to much government regulations.

I was hesitant about Smiths ability to lead and lose some of her past baggage.

I have been pleasantly surprised. I wouldn’t go separatist. Smith doesn’t seem the sort either.

As for the rest of your post… I agree.

[Dubz337]

Fantasies. Yeah lets become a landlocked nation. Have to create own government, own police, own currency, own trade agreements, list goes on. Will never happen.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dubz337

Fantasies. Yeah lets become a landlocked nation. Have to create own government, own police, own currency, own trade agreements, list goes on. Will never happen.

That sounds terrible, almost as bad as living in a country that is bankrupt, where most people have to do without basics like health care, because there is no money, where the government censors all media, controls all travel, and all spending, and you can be arrested without
trial for years, and your bank accounts can be seized. The topic of the threads us how bad things can get, and another couple of terms of Trudeau, and that description will represent Canada. We are already part way there, and the rest is inevitable if Trudeau is reelected.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Dubz337

Fantasies. Yeah lets become a landlocked nation. Have to create own government, own police, own currency, own trade agreements, list goes on. Will never happen.

https://www.lawnguilt.com/landlocked...d-obligations/

We already have government and our own police force (sheriffs)

[Smoky buck]

Next person who brings up landlocked as your big oh no factor for separation please look at a map and count how many functioning landlocked countries exist in this world.

I still don’t see Alberta separating but to think it would be impossible for Alberta to function as a country really needs to look around the world and realize yes there is countries functioning under the conditions Alberta would face

No wonder nothing gets accomplished half of you guys think everything is too hard or impossible lol

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Next person who brings up landlocked as your big oh no factor for separation please look at a map and count how many functioning landlocked countries exist in this world.

I still don’t see Alberta separating but to think it would be impossible for Alberta to function as a country really needs to look around the world and realize yes there is countries functioning under the conditions Alberta would face

No wonder nothing gets accomplished half of you guys think everything is too hard or impossible lol

Apathy is a powerful tool the government uses to rule us. Not govern, rule. As stated on page one; starvation is the only thing that will make the serf revolt. Give them their bread and circus.

[Dubz337]

Surprised all you tinfoil hat types get enough wifi in your bunkers to be able to post this nonsense lol

[densa44]

Alberta is not going anywhere! It is a part of Canada. Try to find ways to make the country better. BTW staring up a country based on a non renewable resource may not be a great idea. As Premier Lougheed predicted, it is water that we should be worrried about.

Is there an answer to my question of what do we have to do to get "conservatives" to get alone with each other?

This would be a good time to see if the UCP can get some support in Quebec. They have a chance to win the next election, but it may be very close and if we are fighting amoung ourselves we have lost already.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Notes in red

It’s an interesting topic and we likely both agree Federalism so far has not treated Albertans fairly.

I am not sure how to quote your qouted qoutes. 😂😂😂

At any rate I saw your post above about federal parks and not sure where it came from. It states that the federal government owns the property, not the land, it may well include the land but I haven’t specifically read that anywhere in the past. It operates the parks but the creation and operation of national parks is still shared with the provinces. Alberta still pays to pave and maintain the highways to Jasper despite it being federal. Same with the power lines. But the government does pay to maintain any park structures, buildings, trails, monuments and such.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Dubz337

Surprised all you tinfoil hat types get enough wifi in your bunkers to be able to post this nonsense lol

Please tell me with all your enlightenment, just what is nonsense? And what part of it requires tinfoil hats? Please stun me with your intellect.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Dubz337

Surprised all you tinfoil hat types get enough wifi in your bunkers to be able to post this nonsense lol

No tinfoil here I see the challenges, I also realize it is not impossible, completely understand that no one could assess the results without negotiations, and I can say with confidence you will likely never see enough support for separation do to honest opposition and those who fear the unknown

But I bet I could make the coolest tinfoil hat you ever seen if I wanted to

Non biased assessment is rare I know

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by densa44

Alberta is not going anywhere! It is a part of Canada. Try to find ways to make the country better. BTW staring up a country based on a non renewable resource may not be a great idea. As Premier Lougheed predicted, it is water that we should be worrried about.

Is there an answer to my question of what do we have to do to get "conservatives" to get alone with each other?

This would be a good time to see if the UCP can get some support in Quebec. They have a chance to win the next election, but it may be very close and if we are fighting amoung ourselves we have lost already.

You are in the wrong thread. Your thread about a federal UPC party is elsewhere.

To make Alberta better, the best thing Alberta can do is separate. When you have cancer or flesh eating disease, do you leave it and try to find ways for the healthy tissue to do better, or do you cut out the cancer and flesh eating disease and separate the good tissue to thrive?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by densa44

Alberta is not going anywhere! It is a part of Canada. Try to find ways to make the country better. BTW staring up a country based on a non renewable resource may not be a great idea. As Premier Lougheed predicted, it is water that we should be worrried about.

Is there an answer to my question of what do we have to do to get "conservatives" to get alone with each other?
This would be a good time to see if the UCP can get some support in Quebec. They have a chance to win the next election, but it may be very close and if we are fighting amoung ourselves we have lost already.

The UCP has zero chance of winning support in Quebec, because the UCP is a provincial party in Alberta.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dubz337

Surprised all you tinfoil hat types get enough wifi in your bunkers to be able to post this nonsense lol

It doesn't take a tinfoil hat to realize that the rate of spending that the liberal/ndp mafia is continuing, is not sustainable. We already pay more to service the debt, than for healthcare. And as the lenders realize that Canada can't sustain this spending, our credit rating will fall, and it will cost us even more to borrow money. Eventually, we will run out of lenders even willing to loan us money. At that point, the government has to slash spending dramatically, greatly increase taxes or both. We are rapidly heading towards a Venezuela scenario and the only way to even delay this, is to get a new government.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Apathy is a powerful tool the government uses to rule us. Not govern, rule. As stated on page one; starvation is the only thing that will make the serf revolt. Give them their bread and circus.

You know what is both telling and scary? The response that our premier got when she told Ottawa to get stuffed when they tried to circumvent and usurp the province by going directly to Calgary and Edmonton with housing money. Clearly the way to go was through the provincial government but our PM wants his fingers in everything. The yowling from people wanting their damn money is scary. No understanding of how this country is "supposed" to work.

[Strait Shooter]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

I am not sure how to quote your qouted qoutes. 😂😂😂

At any rate I saw your post above about federal parks and not sure where it came from. It states that the federal government owns the property, not the land, it may well include the land but I haven’t specifically read that anywhere in the past. It operates the parks but the creation and operation of national parks is still shared with the provinces. Alberta still pays to pave and maintain the highways to Jasper despite it being federal. Same with the power lines. But the government does pay to maintain any park structures, buildings, trails, monuments and such.

Pretty clear the Govt. of Canada owns the national park lands plus a varying percentage of Crown Land in every province, the boundaries of AB. you think you'll see, is not what would be.

[Supergrit]

If treaties were signed by Canadian goverment would they have to be accepted by a new country ?

[traderal]

Originally Posted by Dubz337

Surprised all you tinfoil hat types get enough wifi in your bunkers to be able to post this nonsense lol

You obviously haven't been out of mommies basement recently, probably still can't afford your own wifi but don't worry, uncle TooDoo will send you a cheque, if you vote for him next year, lol.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Supergrit

If treaties were signed by Canadian goverment would they have to be accepted by a new country ?

Odds are FN treaties and FN negotiations would be the toughest hurdle. I wouldn’t expect to get out of treaties with FN if Alberta separated. We would probably have the UN pushing that Alberta was committing hate crimes and human rights violations if that was attempted lol

I don’t they would be cheap negotiations and odds are most here who support separation would not be happy with this part of it

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Odds are FN treaties and FN negotiations would be the toughest hurdle. I wouldn’t expect to get out of treaties with FN if Alberta separated. We would probably have the UN pushing that Alberta was committing hate crimes and human rights violations if that was attempted lol

I don’t they would be cheap negotiations and odds are most here who support separation would not be happy with this part of it

I agree with you here, however Alberta as a country can choose to not participate in BS like the UN. Alberta would also be free of activists in the supreme court of Canada and honour the treaties as written, not as the courts deem they should evolve.