Help with false shoulder.... - Page 3

Pathfinder76 · #61 06-10-2019, 09:01 AM

Just section the case. Things may be fine. Things might not. But I’d so easy to tell if you section the case

Deer Hunter · #62 06-10-2019, 11:02 AM

Brass moves on firing. Expecially the first. That’s what it was designed to do. Seal.

I don’t section the case every time I see a shiny mark on it.

All factory ammo shot from several chambers.

30-06 Winchester

243 win Remington

270 Win Remington

There’s a whole lot more than 3 thou shoulder movement in all these previously virgin cases. And it doesn’t bother me at all.

Deer Hunter · #63 06-10-2019, 11:19 AM

Oh but it's probably just my grubby factory rifles combined with my garbage brand factory ammo. Stuff chuck wouldn't be caught dead shooting anyways...

So I measured some Lapua brass.
308 Win Lapua fired from a custom chamber experienced 8 thou case head to shoulder increase on first firing.
22-250 Rem Lapua brass experienced 12 thou.

Pathfinder76 · #64 06-10-2019, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Oh but it's probably just my grubby factory rifles combined with my garbage brand factory ammo. Stuff chuck wouldn't be caught dead shooting anyways...

So I measured some Lapua brass.
308 Win Lapua fired from a custom chamber experienced 8 thou case head to shoulder increase on first firing.
22-250 Rem Lapua brass experienced 12 thou.

What are you measuring with?

Deer Hunter · #65 06-10-2019, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

DH. There are a BUNCH of people here that will confirm that two and three thousandths of an inch head space on virgin brass is COMMON. This is not a big secret. Just wow.

Digital calipers and a bushing sitting on a datum on the shoulder.

Do you really think that 3 thou of headspace would be enough to allow brass and factory ammo to fit in all types of saami spec chambers?

Pathfinder76 · #66 06-10-2019, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Digital calipers and a bushing sitting on a datum on the shoulder.

Do you really think that 3 thou of headspace would be enough to allow brass and factory ammo to fit in all types of saami spec chambers?

It certainly is. Take a look at the photos above. Those are two chambers, one cut by Henry Remple, and one cut by Jan Kolenbrander. They have 2 thousandths clearance (with spring back maybe 2.5 or 3 but certainly not 12) If you insist on calling me a liar, you are more than welcome to call them to discuss it.

Buckhead · #67 06-10-2019, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Brass moves on firing. Expecially the first. That’s what it was designed to do. Seal.

I don’t section the case every time I see a shiny mark on it.

All factory ammo shot from several chambers.

30-06 Winchester

243 win Remington

270 Win Remington

There’s a whole lot more than 3 thou shoulder movement in all these previously virgin cases. And it doesn’t bother me at all.

And those cases look perfectly fine. I would not be concerned. However, they are all beltless cases that are free to move forward at the firing pin strike.
Belted magnum - totally different scenario.

Salavee · #68 06-10-2019, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

It certainly is. Take a look at the photos above. Those are two chambers, one cut by Henry Remple, and one cut by Jan Kolenbrander. They have 2 thousandths clearance (with spring back maybe 2.5 or 3 but certainly not 12) If you insist on calling me a liar, you are more than welcome to call them to discuss it.

A custom reamer will usually provide tighter tolerances than factory reamers.
Once-fired ,brass will conform to those tolerances.

Factory chambers, by necessity, have to have greater tolerances, as does factory ammo. A factory chamber, with max allowable SAAMI specs, coupled with Factory ammo with minimum spec with show some pretty wild variations.
Once fired and formed to a particular chamber they would be fairly consistent from that point on. Pretty common knowledge but just thought I would mention.

Pathfinder76 · #69 06-10-2019, 02:13 PM

Of course, but headspace is headspace. It is controlled by the operator, not the reamer.

Deer Hunter · #70 06-10-2019, 04:34 PM

I doubt you will ever get 3 thou case head to shoulder factory ammo/virgin brass tolerance on a factory chambered rifle with a belt. Which was what the Op was dealing with.

There is no need for "salvage". Or comparison to custom chambered rifles in rimless bottlenecked cartridges.

Pathfinder76 · #71 06-10-2019, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

I doubt you will ever get 3 thou case head to shoulder factory ammo/virgin brass tolerance on a factory chambered rifle with a belt. Which was what the Op was dealing with.

There is no need for "salvage". Or comparison to custom chambered rifles in rimless bottlenecked cartridges.

Who is making that comparison? I have ZERO problem with factory barrels or factory chambers. I’ve shot dozens and dozens of them. All I see is a bunch of guys saying this won’t happen, this can’t happen, this is impossible, this isn’t a problem, etc. You included. I know exactly what the OP is dealing with. That’s why I said to fire and section a case and if there is a problem control headspace by some other means.

I have learned 80% of what I know screwing something the heck up. I know some of this stuff can happen because I’ve bloody well made it happen. Choose to listen, choose to ignore, I don’t care. But don’t call me a liar.

Deer Hunter · #72 06-10-2019, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Who is making that comparison? I have ZERO problem with factory barrels or factory chambers. I’ve shot dozens and dozens of them. All I see is a bunch of guys saying this won’t happen, this can’t happen, this is impossible, this isn’t a problem, etc. You included. I know exactly what the OP is dealing with. That’s why I said to fire and section a case and if there is a problem control headspace by some other means.

I have learned 80% of what I know screwing something the heck up. I know some of this stuff can happen because I’ve bloody well made it happen. Choose to listen, choose to ignore, I don’t care. But don’t call me a liar.

You were making the comparison. It was irrelevant to the OP.
Cut the laughing, the in your life, the bloody, the betting, the wows. Then I'll stop calling you on your BS.

fps plus · #73 06-10-2019, 07:29 PM

As I read these post I can see there is some misunderstanding on headspace also “ tight chambers”

Salavee · #74 06-10-2019, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Of course, but headspace is headspace. It is controlled by the operator, not the reamer.

Being a belted case , there is another issue that can present itself after a few reloadings. There are few ,if any, std FL dies that will re-size the belted cases right down to the belt. Over time, this dimension, directly above the belt, will increase to a point that can cause a problem with chambering. I found this with my " tight" custom chambered 7 STW.
Sometimes this issue is mistaken for something other than it is.

Innovative Technologies makes a collet die that resizes the case right down to the belt and eliminates the potential problem. Just a thought.

elkhunter11 · #75 06-10-2019, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salavee

Being a belted case , there is another issue that can present itself after a few reloadings. There are few ,if any, std FL dies that will re-size the belted cases right down to the belt. Over time, this dimension, directly above the belt, will increase to a point that can cause a problem with chambering. I found this with my " tight" custom chambered 7 STW.
Sometimes this issue is mistaken for something other than it is.

Innovative Technologies makes a collet die that resizes the case right down to the belt and eliminates the potential problem. Just a thought.

I have owned a dozen belted magnums, including six 7mmstw rifles, and I have never experienced this issue.

Salavee · #76 06-10-2019, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have owned a dozen belted magnums, including six 7mmstw rifles, and I have never experienced this issue.

..but I did .. as well as quite a few others. What are you suggesting ?

elkhunter11 · #77 06-10-2019, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salavee

..but I did .. as well as quite a few others. What are you suggesting ?

I am suggesting that is is not overly common, and not an issue for most people.

Salavee · #78 06-10-2019, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I am suggesting that is is not overly common, and not an issue for most people.

I didn't say it say it was common. I said it was a "potential problem". It could have been the dies I was using for all I know. Is that possible?

obsessed1 · #79 06-11-2019, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I am suggesting that is is not overly common, and not an issue for most people.

I have the same issue with an off the shelf rem 700 LR in 300 wm. So it does happen

303carbine · #80 06-16-2019, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschafer

I have 100 new virgin .338 win mag brass... bag of Winchester and bag of Hornady... both brands are short from case head to shoulder when compared to once fired from my rifle.... Win is shortest, approx 0.016-0.018" on average....

I've posted before regarding this brass and it was suggested to first create a false shoulder with a "tapered expander" of size approx .350", then, neck size back to .338 and allow case to headspace on shoulder for first shot.... (I understand this).

My question is: which brand "stem and tapered expander" do I purchase? My FL resizing die is a RCBS FL standard... One can see all sorts of different shaped expanders at Brownells, but I never know if the stem and threads are compatible with my RCBS die....A link to an appropriate "tapered expander"/ stem would be greatly appreciated... Still new to reloading, some of this is not yet second nature to me.. thanks in advance....

Belted magnum brass will benefit from neck sizing after firing to fit your chamber, the brass will now headspace on the shoulder as well as the belt instead of the belt alone.

Pathfinder76 · #81 06-16-2019, 01:12 PM

Neck sizing is certainly not necessary.

303carbine · #82 06-16-2019, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Neck sizing is certainly not necessary.

Case life is often extended with neck sizing along with loads that are tailored for accuracy rather than the highest velocity.
I anneal cases after every fourth or fifth firing and do a minimal full length resize as the cases require.
Belted mag brass does work better when neck sized, it then head spaces on the shoulder as well as the belt.
I have 338 Win, 7mm mag, 300 Win to name a few that are still in service after years of careful neck sizing and reloading.
I have fired some 300 Win brass around seven times in the same rifle and they still fit the chamber.
Years ago I tried a test with 7mm mag brass, I took my reloading press to the range, I measured out 50 rounds into a reloading block, I fired, neck sized and reloaded and fired all 50 rounds through the same brass.
I had no problem with case separation as the brass was not hot loaded and the brass was properly annealed.
Whether you think neck sizing isn't necessary is up to you, for me and others who shoot belted brass, neck sizing works.