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  #31  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The issue that I have, is that your vehicle can be towed and held at considerable expense, with no proof of guilt, and no opportunity to prove your innocence and be compensated if you are innocent. In effect, a financial sentence is being handed out without ever being proven guilty.
sigh

Mine will never be towed.

I never have will never do any drugs or smoke, and I do not drive if I have had a drink. Gasp, I know right, Ken said he 'might' have A drink!!! I like a beer with battered fish, wine with steak or pasta.

But I worry about a checkstop as much as I worry about a snowflake hitting my windshield.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #32  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:16 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
sigh

Mine will never be towed.

I never have will never do any drugs or smoke, and I do not drive if I have had a drink. Gasp, I know right, Ken said he 'might' have A drink!!! I like a beer with battered fish, wine with steak or pasta.

But I worry about a checkstop as much as I worry about a snowflake hitting my windshield.
That doesn't change the fact that our laws now allow someone to be sentenced without a trial.
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  #33  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:25 PM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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That doesn't change the fact that our laws now allow someone to be sentenced without a trial.
^^^ This all day long.
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  #34  
Old 12-10-2018, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
That doesn't change the fact that our laws now allow someone to be sentenced without a trial.
I don't see that as sentenced, I see that as investigation? Reasonable suspicion? Am I wording it wrong?

I have said before that I always lived on the straight and narrow, because 1 it is the right way to live, and 2 I was always terrified of ending up in jail. I don't do well in tight spaces.

If I am wrong, and it is indeed sentencing without evidence and trial, back to sleepless nights. May as well get some cats and a standing order with skip-the- dishes.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #35  
Old 12-10-2018, 04:04 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
I don't see that as sentenced, I see that as investigation? Reasonable suspicion? Am I wording it wrong?

I have said before that I always lived on the straight and narrow, because 1 it is the right way to live, and 2 I was always terrified of ending up in jail. I don't do well in tight spaces.

If I am wrong, and it is indeed sentencing without evidence and trial, back to sleepless nights. May as well get some cats and a standing order with skip-the- dishes.
There is no investigation, the vehicle is towed, you pay the tow and the impound fees, and you are not entitled to a trial to prove your innocence never mind the prosecutor having to prove your guilt. You even get a court date for a speeding ticket, but in this situation, you have no such right. It's a sad situation when that is even possible in a supposedly progressive country.
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  #36  
Old 12-10-2018, 04:26 PM
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I understand your point Rem but for myself it is the gradual erosion of all my rights which has become a very slippery slope that I struggle with. The loss in personal freedoms is getting worse with every turn. If it is about public safety why do they allow part of the population to ride motorcycles without helmets?
Having speed traps at the bottom of hills etc. is not about safety either.....There is a very long list of the abuses of power that results in many losses of personal freedom the people of this country suffer from and it is getting worse. The RCMP and firearms? Where will that one end?
Well if we had more sensible citizens the noose would loosen but look at what we have out there.....sit at a red light and take a look at the cell phone usage etc oblivious to surroundings.....and the noose tightens a little bit more, if it saves a life awesome!
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  #37  
Old 12-10-2018, 04:37 PM
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Your vehicle is towed if you fail a screening device or are arrested for impaired, the same as it can be towed if you get a ticket for driving an unregistered or uninsured vehicle or drive with a suspended/ no Drivers Licence. In all these cases the vehicle is removed before your trial. However, there has definitely been an investigation and there were reasonable grounds to charge you. As far as there being no recourse, if you look on the back of your seizure notice there are instructions for an appeal process which you may participate in to have costs/ your vehicle returned to you. You are afforded the right to go before a board and have a “trial” in relation to the vehicle seizure.

As far as your rights being eroded, you don’t have the right to drive on public highways. You have the privilege, that’s why you have to apply for a Licence and abide by the rules set out to use these roads. Those rules now include providing a breath sample to ensure you are not over the legal limit of alcohol. If you don’t like this inconvenience, you are free to walk wherever you are going and face no risk of being forced to provide a breath sample. This will also free you of the inconvenience of having to produce a drivers license, insurance or registration.
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  #38  
Old 12-10-2018, 05:31 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by WSMLEO View Post
Your vehicle is towed if you fail a screening device or are arrested for impaired, the same as it can be towed if you get a ticket for driving an unregistered or uninsured vehicle or drive with a suspended/ no Drivers Licence. In all these cases the vehicle is removed before your trial. However, there has definitely been an investigation and there were reasonable grounds to charge you. As far as there being no recourse, if you look on the back of your seizure notice there are instructions for an appeal process which you may participate in to have costs/ your vehicle returned to you. You are afforded the right to go before a board and have a “trial” in relation to the vehicle seizure.

As far as your rights being eroded, you don’t have the right to drive on public highways. You have the privilege, that’s why you have to apply for a Licence and abide by the rules set out to use these roads. Those rules now include providing a breath sample to ensure you are not over the legal limit of alcohol. If you don’t like this inconvenience, you are free to walk wherever you are going and face no risk of being forced to provide a breath sample. This will also free you of the inconvenience of having to produce a drivers license, insurance or registration.
Appearing before a board, is not the same as appearing before a judge. And if you are charged with driving while suspended, or for driving an unregistered motor vehicle, you do get a day in court.
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  #39  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Appearing before a board, is not the same as appearing before a judge. And if you are charged with driving while suspended, or for driving an unregistered motor vehicle, you do get a day in court.
It's not the same but he has explained that this is still after an investigation not before. I doubt there are officers out there that are towing vehicles without good reason. Fail a road side get your vehicle towed, fail to maintain your registration, insurance or drivers license towed. Lesson unfollow the rules have a good day on the road. Pretty simple tasks that allow us to have the privilege to drive on the public roadways.
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  #40  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:46 PM
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It's not the same but he has explained that this is still after an investigation not before. I doubt there are officers out there that are towing vehicles without good reason. Fail a road side get your vehicle towed, fail to maintain your registration, insurance or drivers license towed. Lesson unfollow the rules have a good day on the road. Pretty simple tasks that allow us to have the privilege to drive on the public roadways.
Simply blowing a warning on a roadside breathalizer can result in a vehicle being towed, and a license being suspended. Given that the roadside units are not as accurate as they should be, some people who have had their vehicles towed, may have actually been under .05. There is a reason why people are not charged with .08, until they are tested at the police station, so why does that not apply to .05 as well?

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/documents-cast...awyer-1.745545
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  #41  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:47 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Guilty before proven innocent!
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  #42  
Old 12-10-2018, 07:52 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
Guilty before proven innocent!
You aren't even entitled to a trial to prove your innocence.
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  #43  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:07 PM
Darkerwhite Darkerwhite is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
You aren't even entitled to a trial to prove your innocence.
Don't drink and drive you won't fail if your pushing the edge of .05 so close your worried about the accuracy of the two instruments used here the instruments are not the problem.
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  #44  
Old 12-10-2018, 09:26 PM
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Don't drink and drive you won't fail if your pushing the edge of .05 so close your worried about the accuracy of the two instruments used here the instruments are not the problem.
The instrument is the problem if your actual level is .04, or .045, and you blow a warning because the instrument is not accurate . The limit is .05, it isn,'t .04 or .045.. That is why they don't charge anyone with exceeding .08 based on the roadside unit. They take the person to the station to test them on a more accurate unit. And regardless of what you are charged with, you should be entitled to a trial. As my link demonstrates ,there have been issues with the roadside units, one officer blew a fail and he had not consumed any alcohol at all. From that link

Quote:
"He hadn't been drinking at all. It just gave a fail."
This may not be common, but without a trial to prove guilt or innocence, innocent people will be wrongly punished.

This isn't supposed to be a police state, where the police declare you guilty and sentence you without a trial.
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  #45  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:34 PM
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Well if we had more sensible citizens the noose would loosen but look at what we have out there.....sit at a red light and take a look at the cell phone usage etc oblivious to surroundings.....and the noose tightens a little bit more, if it saves a life awesome!
Seems the same argument is made all the time when it comes to taking your firearms.....But hey Canadians are like frogs in a pot of water we never see a problem till the water boils.
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  #46  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:39 PM
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I don't argue with EH11 on these subjects anymore because he knows so little and talks so much about it.

ASDs are overly accurate and overly calibrated. If you blow warnings you are blow warnings. If you blow fails you blow fails. Everything is truncated in your favor.

This is the most overly investigated portion of what police are required to do. We wouldn't have the Provincial administrative suspensions etc if it wasnt for the dog and pony show lawyers have made of the case law and the system has allowed it.

If you are charged or have the administrative suspension used against you it is because you are guilty. The only reasons people get off on these things is BS issues that don't fly for every other charge.

I'm tired of listening to the erosion of rights crybaby crap out of most people. I've actually stood up and fought to protect our real rights, in court rooms, on the street and with my time and money. Sending your bitty cheque to some club or writing a letter or two doesn't make you an activist.

This is not an erosion of rights. This is people plugging a hole that's been made gaping and risking lives because of BS, whiney oh my rights GUILTY people and their lawyers ruining it for everyone else.
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  #47  
Old 12-10-2018, 10:48 PM
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I'm assuming that my post got ninja deleted by a mod because I just posted a link without context. <3

I just don't find the modern progressive version of the song has the same ring to it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJB9GP5gyAw
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  #48  
Old 12-10-2018, 11:24 PM
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Oops spammed the wrong thread don't drink and AO lol
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  #49  
Old 12-11-2018, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The instrument is the problem if your actual level is .04, or .045, and you blow a warning because the instrument is not accurate . The limit is .05, it isn,'t .04 or .045.. That is why they don't charge anyone with exceeding .08 based on the roadside unit. They take the person to the station to test them on a more accurate unit. And regardless of what you are charged with, you should be entitled to a trial. As my link demonstrates ,there have been issues with the roadside units, one officer blew a fail and he had not consumed any alcohol at all. From that link



This may not be common, but without a trial to prove guilt or innocence, innocent people will be wrongly punished.

This isn't supposed to be a police state, where the police declare you guilty and sentence you without a trial.
With every post you make, you show more and more how uneducated you are on this matter, standing on a roof top spewing your ignorant BS for everyone to hear.

First of all, of course you get your day in court, if you get charged with impaired, or refusal, you are released with a court date, same as any ticket. Police cannot convict you of anything, they simply lay charges and compel you to court. The board I was talking about is only in relation to appealing your vehicle seizure.

Second, the ASD's are accurate, they are very accurate, and they are tested constantly. If anything, an ASD can only show a lower blood alcohol than a true blood test would show. Second, even though provincial law says that .50 leads to a provincial 3 day sanction, ASD's are calibrated to only show a "caution" if you blow between 60-100 mg%. Even though over 80 mg% is a criminal offence, the ASD doesn't show a fail unless you blow over 100 mg%. Everything is truncated in your favour. Also, if you have a concern about the ASD used, immediately after you do your test, you are given a piece of paper and have your right to a second test explained to you. At that point, you have the right to provide a second sample into another instrument to ensure its accuracy and the lower of the two tests, if there is any discrepancy, is used.

But please Elkhunter, continue spewing your factually incorrect opinions on here. Or maybe do some actual reading and educate yourself on the subject.
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  #50  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:54 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by WSMLEO View Post
With every post you make, you show more and more how uneducated you are on this matter, standing on a roof top spewing your ignorant BS for everyone to hear.

First of all, of course you get your day in court, if you get charged with impaired, or refusal, you are released with a court date, same as any ticket. Police cannot convict you of anything, they simply lay charges and compel you to court. The board I was talking about is only in relation to appealing your vehicle seizure.

Second, the ASD's are accurate, they are very accurate, and they are tested constantly. If anything, an ASD can only show a lower blood alcohol than a true blood test would show. Second, even though provincial law says that .50 leads to a provincial 3 day sanction, ASD's are calibrated to only show a "caution" if you blow between 60-100 mg%. Even though over 80 mg% is a criminal offence, the ASD doesn't show a fail unless you blow over 100 mg%. Everything is truncated in your favour. Also, if you have a concern about the ASD used, immediately after you do your test, you are given a piece of paper and have your right to a second test explained to you. At that point, you have the right to provide a second sample into another instrument to ensure its accuracy and the lower of the two tests, if there is any discrepancy, is used.

But please Elkhunter, continue spewing your factually incorrect opinions on here. Or maybe do some actual reading and educate yourself on the subject.
I am not talking about being charged with being impaired or with being in excess of .08, I am talking about having your vehicle towed and impounded because you are supposed over .05. I have no problem with being charged with being over .08, because you are given a trial, it's the new .05 nonsense that I have a problem with.

As for the accuracy of the roadside machines, are you denying that the incidents listed in the link below actually happened? I suppose that they are all lies and fabrications?

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/documents-cast...awyer-1.745545

As to my being uneducated on the matter, from that same link, a Supreme Court Judge agreed with the issue that I have with this, I suppose that he is uneducated on the matter as well?

Quote:
Earlier this month, a B.C. Supreme Court judge struck down part of the law, saying people were being subjected to fines and suspensions based on a roadside screening test without any recourse to a meaningful appeal process or a lawyer.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 12-11-2018 at 07:06 AM.
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  #51  
Old 12-11-2018, 06:54 AM
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That doesn't change the fact that our laws now allow someone to be sentenced without a trial.
I am going to correct this for you.

That doesn't change the fact that our laws now allow someone to be punished without a trial.
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  #52  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:01 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by silver View Post
I am going to correct this for you.

That doesn't change the fact that our laws now allow someone to be punished without a trial.

Call it what you will, it is a financial punishment, it doesn't matter whether you pay the province via a fine, or whether you pay a towing/impound company. Iit is paid because the province has implemented this legislation, as a sentence/punishment, without having been found guilty.
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  #53  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:04 AM
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Call it what you will, it is a financial punishment, it doesn't matter whether you pay the province via a fine, or whether you pay a towing/impound company. Iit is paid because the province has implemented this legislation, as a sentence/punishment, without having been found guilty.
Guilty in the laws eyes.....how else do you hammer home that you can't drive drunk?

Common citizen walking around has little to know clue so they follow as they see, well frank can have a few drinks and drive so why can't I! And the cancer grows so in steps the law.....all because of a few idiots and like I said if it saves a life...awesome
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  #54  
Old 12-11-2018, 07:09 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Guilty in the laws eyes.....how else do you hammer home that you can't drive drunk?

Common citizen walking around has little to know clue so they follow as they see, well frank can have a few drinks and drive so why can't I! And the cancer grows so in steps the law.....all because of a few idiots and like I said if it saves a life...awesome
The exact same argument that the anti firearms crowd uses to further and further restrict firearms owners in Canada " if it saves a life?"
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  #55  
Old 12-11-2018, 08:24 AM
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The exact same argument that the anti firearms crowd uses to further and further restrict firearms owners in Canada " if it saves a life?"
Good grief that's a stretch.
There is nothing more important than saving lives.
I am wondering how you are going to work the High river gun grab into this thread.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #56  
Old 12-11-2018, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
Good grief that's a stretch.
There is nothing more important than saving lives.
I am wondering how you are going to work the High river gun grab into this thread.
How about we just leave it at this? You and the LEOs on this forum can continue to tell the rest of us how uneducated we are on the matter, and I suppose some will say the same thing about the Supreme court judge that rendered the decision. I would hope that a Supreme Court judge is better educated on the topic than any of us.

From the link I posted previously.


Quote:
Earlier this month, a B.C. Supreme Court judge struck down part of the law, saying people were being subjected to fines and suspensions based on a roadside screening test without any recourse to a meaningful appeal process or a lawyer.
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  #57  
Old 12-11-2018, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
Good grief that's a stretch.
There is nothing more important than saving lives.
I am wondering how you are going to work the High river gun grab into this thread.
That high river gun grab was a travesty of justice. It is important to forgive the RCMP for the terrible breach of trust that occurred and it is much more important to never forget it. If we don't want these types of crimes to keep reoccurring we need to keep them from getting buried. The RCMP management have shown over and over again that they do not have the integrity to police themselves. You do mention yourself regularly the scumbags etc that get free passes from our justice system. Its the same group (justice) that needs to be constantly monitored and scrutinized.
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  #58  
Old 12-11-2018, 01:09 PM
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How about we just leave it at this? You and the LEOs on this forum can continue to tell the rest of us how uneducated we are on the matter, and I suppose some will say the same thing about the Supreme court judge that rendered the decision. I would hope that a Supreme Court judge is better educated on the topic than any of us.

From the link I posted previously.
Guilty untill proven innocent. Being just an average guy with an opinion, I would say that pretty well sums it up. Being preached to by the LEO's about how uneducated we the masses are is a bit much. Lastly, I am fairly sure a Supreme Court judge may be better educated on the topic than any of the previous posters. We are evolving into a police state one baby step at a time. IMHO

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Old 12-11-2018, 02:00 PM
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[QUOTE=Ken07AOVette;3890493]Good grief that's a stretch.
There is nothing more important than saving lives.
I am wondering how you are going to work the High river gun grab into this QUOTE]

This comment is simplified horse pucky. And there are plenty who have given their life as evidence that there is a bigger picture. Freedom comes at a cost. I value my freedom and if push comes to shove I will risk my life to ensure freedom. If others want to squander theirs on feel good exercises so be it....but leave mine damn well alone!

Call me crazy but I also believe the kids should be able to go on field trips that pose potential risks. Sure at some point some young people will perish. While many many others during that same period will enjoy the freedom to do things and live and learn. Is saving one life worth forever changing the lives and opportunity of MANY? Bigger picture stuff.
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Old 12-11-2018, 03:10 PM
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Guilty untill proven innocent. Being just an average guy with an opinion, I would say that pretty well sums it up. Being preached to by the LEO's and the (holier than thou) Ken about how uneducated we the masses are is a bit much. Lastly, I am fairly sure a Supreme Court judge may be better educated on the topic than any of the previous posters. We are evolving into a police state one baby step at a time. IMHO
100% agreed.
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