Ontario CFO defies Minister Toews

[Rocky7]

This is incredible! We are at a truly historic moment in this democracy. The Ontario CFO is waiting to see if her RCMP bosses will agree to comply with a clear direction from the federal government!

Maybe the feds will now move to repeal the entire Firearms Act. Wouldn't THAT be something to celebrate!


OTTAWA - Ontario's chief firearms office (CFO) is defying federal Public Safety Minister Vic Toews a day after he wrote to the RCMP and CFOs across Canada to warn they have no authority to record purchases of licensed long-gun owners in paper ledgers.

"Our response would be business as usual," said Ontario Provincial Police Acting Insp. Steve Rideout, a spokesman for Ontario's CFO. "We're still continuing the use of business ledgers, and we'll wait and see what position the RCMP takes on Mr. Toews's direction and then we'll consider our options."

Toews isn't pleased.

"It's a quite a disturbing response," Toews told Sun News Network.

He says CFOs act under the authority the Firearms Act, which was amended by Bill C-19 in April to indicate they not collect "registry-type" data.

"I've made that very clear in my direction to the RCMP, which I am authorized to do under the legislation, and I expect the CFOs to follow the legislation," Toews said.

Toews didn't said what kind of penalties defiant CFOs could face, though his Tuesday letter threatened legislative or regulatory action if necessary.

The RCMP has not responded to QMI Agency requests for its response to Toews......

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...09-140218.html

[Albertacoyotecaller]

I don't know why the RCMP can't respond either? Their response should be, "yes sir".

Greg

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by Albertacoyotecaller

Their response should be, "yes sir".

No kidding!

I daresay those of us who have warned about movement toward a police state don't look like wingnuts now.

[guywiththemule]

I am wondering, if we now have the "beginning" of a "police state" in canada?

[Rocky7]

I believe this started a while back, guywiththemule. The RCMP are off the reservation. Now it's out in the open.

Good. I hope they are disbanded. The RCMP is way beyond it's "best before" date.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

I am wondering, if we now have the "beginning" of a "police state" in canada?

Bingo. That is exactly what it is when the police REFUSE to take direction from laws legally and constitutionally passed by parliament. Not sure how else anyone can intrepret that. Whichever RCMP officer is directing their members to not obey federal LAW should be immediately relieved of his job....and any other members that feel it is up to them to "MAKE" law.

IMMEDIATELY.

Alberta should have gotten rid of the RCMP a long time ago.


Too bad we're stuck with another gutless provincial government for 4 more years, that is more concerned with buying union votes than looking out for Alberta.

[Twisted Canuck]

Well, I know what would happen to me, if I blatantly disregarded federally legislated firearms acts and said as much to the media. Say for instance, I gave an interview and said that it is business as usual for me, and I will not be securing my restricted firearms and associated ammunition in my home, because I may disagree with the legislation brought about by a majority government. Sorry, Mr. Safety Minister, but I will not comply. I want immediate access to my handguns. In fact, I think I will even start to conceal carry, because the laws of Canada are not to my liking. And suppose I was a public servant, (like a CFO), and had that attitude? Well, no problem, my position makes me safe from any repurcussion. REALLY??? This guy needs to be slapped sideways stupid bloody for his arrogance!


We're still continuing the use of business ledgers, and we'll wait and see what position the RCMP takes on Mr. Toews's direction and then we'll consider our options."

If that isn't grounds for an extreme bit of job termination with prejudice and criminal charges, I don't know what is. As if the 'position of the RCMP' somehow holds more weight than the laws passed by elected officials! Who do these bureaucratic office pogues think they are, that they are somehow above the law?? In a perfect world, they would be the first ones up against the wall when the people revolt.

[Scott N]

The RCMP, a once well respected police force all over the world, should be disbanded. Policing and politics don't mix, unless you live in a ****-hole country.

[pikergolf]

Disband immediately, this is a mindset and the rot goes way deeper. If they don't deal with this look out, can you say rogue.

[plinker]

This must end with all of the offending CFO's and senior RCMP involved having their employment terminated immediately. If not then there is no reason to have a government because the police will make all of the decisions for the people.

[j m]

Just sent

Mr Harper,

I am deeply concerned by the blatant public disregard of Canadian law shown by the CFO's and RCMP in regards to long gun information. No one in Canada is above the law. I feel the individuals reponsible should immediately be removed from duty and charged to the fullest extent of the law. Failing to do so only confirms that we are already living in a police state in Canada.

[brendan's dad]

The RCMP doesn't govern the CFO's in Ontario, the OPP does. The RCMP governs the CFO's in Alberta because the RCMP acts as the provincial police force in Alberta as the OPP is the provincial police force in ontario. If the CFO and OPP are defying federal law then the RCMP may be asked to investigate the allegation but they will not come out and support 1 way or the other, that's would be just stupid. The RCMP's silence probably indicates that they are not getting in the middle of a battle between Ontario and Ottawa, the RCMP has enough issues without having to fight battles that aren't even theirs!

[BANG]

the beginning?
a decade into it!

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

I am wondering, if we now have the "beginning" of a "police state" in canada?

[ctd]

Lets disband the RCMP, the thousands of lives a day they save will be saved by who?
Let me guess the young fat bylaw guy in red deer who speeds everywhere he goes, or the other fat old one who regulary cuts traffic off, or how about the stupid one who jumps out in front of traffic.

Or maybe we want to run like the OPP, oh wait there the ones who are disobeying the order.
Or maybe the QPP, oh ya again they are perfect.

If it was cheaper and easier to gid rid of the RCMP by a province such as Alberta and BC they would have years ago. Instead provinces who are "have" provinces can never afford to run their own complete service.

The "have not" can afford to run their own Police services because they do not pay for them.

No I dont think we are any wear near a Police State in Canada, to many RCMP members are actually smart people.
Quebec and Ontario are close to being a police state in the way their members react to the public. You want to see crappy treatment be arrested by one of those two police forces.
Wait lets lump Edmonton in their also, their Police force is a shining example of a professional force at its best, with little to no accountability to the public.
I like to see people with the crap kicked out of them for no reason other then ask to have their cuffs not so tight for three hours they were left sitting on the concrete because some ERT member thought the 90lb chick was a threat for asking directions.

Lets let the RCMP do what they do best, provide National service to the country. Lets have the Citys provide services in major centers and the province provide coverage to small rural areas.

They can all be responsible At a National for training and enforcement.

[Twisted Canuck]

Hey ctd, I'm just guessing here, but it sounds like you have a personal issue that has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Maybe start a thread about it, I'm sure you'll have lots of others with personal issues who want to jump in as well. Just a guess.

Edit: I'm curious too, what source do you have for the RCMP saving 'thousands of lives a day'. They must be very awesome to do that, I didn't realize there were that many homicidal maniacs being held at bay. Or is that just from handing out traffic violations, and slowing down the deadly speeders (which is a good thing, don't get me wrong).....?

[270WIN]

I just got done firing off an email to Vic Toews thanking him, on behalf of myself and my wife, for the strong position he is taking against the CFOs who are attempting to defy the law of the land and undermine the will of the citizens of this country.
If everyone else on here who is offended by the illegal actions of these pencil pushing bureaucrats did the same it would do nothing but good.
We are often quick to criticize the people we elect to public office when they do something we disapprove of. It can't hurt at all to give them a pat on the back when they actually get it right.

[ctd]

I dont have another agenda.

This is not a Direct RCMP issue as some may have you think.
It is Provincially appointed OPP CFO. Who is paid for by the Province but responsible to the Federal Goverment.
Guess what, you do what the person who pays you says to do. Then let them sort it out at the higher level.

It seems that is what is happening right now. In the next couple weeks we will see how Ont and Que are dealt with.

Its funny last week the forums on here were talking about how Ont is not following the Federal ruling on the Long gun registry. Implementing their own registry along with Quebec.

In that Discussion it was mentioned that Ont and Que provide their own CFO not an RCMP appointed one.
Which although they are reponsible to the RCMP for firearms laws and regulations..
They also are responsible to their provincial governements and what they say and want done. Even though a province cannot override federal jurisdiction. They can implement equal to or greater then the minimium requirements as directed by the law. It is their battle to justify their actions.

Hopefully they can justify their actions an no harm no foul. I suspect like Quebec they are using the mass shooting sprees to form the back bone of their registry to justify the existance of a regstry.

Clear thinking level headed people know a guns dont kill people, people kill people. Whether they use a firearm or homemade bomb or their bare hands they will do it.

Put in a freedom of information act on types of response, then amount of idiots in Alberta alone who the RCMP respond to and save their lives is one indicator.
How many vehicle collisions they respond to, how many gun, suicide threats.
At least 100 lives a day average in Ab alone, they may not save thousands a day directly in Ab but it wont be far off for Canada wide.

[rottie]

Guess what, you do what the person who pays you says to do. Then let them sort it out at the higher level.

Dont know if I agree with that CTD,under OHS and Envirmental laws the worker is just as responsible for any wrong doing as the employer,so is there not the chance this could apply here ?

[elkhunter11]

This is not a Direct RCMP issue as some may have you think.
It is Provincially appointed OPP CFO. Who is paid for by the Province but responsible to the Federal Goverment.

If only the Ontario CFO was defying the federal government, you would be correct, but that is not the situation here.

http://m.edmontonsun.com/2012/05/05/...take-back-door

The Other four CFOs involved, are most certainly are not OPP employees. Who is the Alberta CFO?How about the B.C. CFO? The Manitoba CFO? All of the CFOs involved need to be immediately arrested for violating the new legislation. If the CFO's bosses resist, arrest them as well.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

This is incredible! We are at a truly historic moment in this democracy. The Ontario CFO is waiting to see if her RCMP bosses will agree to comply with a clear direction from the federal government!

Maybe the feds will now move to repeal the entire Firearms Act. Wouldn't THAT be something to celebrate!


OTTAWA - Ontario's chief firearms office (CFO) is defying federal Public Safety Minister Vic Toews a day after he wrote to the RCMP and CFOs across Canada to warn they have no authority to record purchases of licensed long-gun owners in paper ledgers.

"Our response would be business as usual," said Ontario Provincial Police Acting Insp. Steve Rideout, a spokesman for Ontario's CFO. "We're still continuing the use of business ledgers, and we'll wait and see what position the RCMP takes on Mr. Toews's direction and then we'll consider our options."

Toews isn't pleased.

"It's a quite a disturbing response," Toews told Sun News Network.

He says CFOs act under the authority the Firearms Act, which was amended by Bill C-19 in April to indicate they not collect "registry-type" data.

"I've made that very clear in my direction to the RCMP, which I am authorized to do under the legislation, and I expect the CFOs to follow the legislation," Toews said.

Toews didn't said what kind of penalties defiant CFOs could face, though his Tuesday letter threatened legislative or regulatory action if necessary.

The RCMP has not responded to QMI Agency requests for its response to Toews......

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews...09-140218.html

That stuffed shirt really got me going.

It's one thing IF the Connies missed addressing some obscure point in law with C-19 and the guy is simply following those rules to the letter. But it's another thing entirely to have some hirling openly defy the minister when he clearly states the spirit and intent of the legislation.

The intent is clear now but I still have some doubts about whether or not C-19 might have sort of left a couple stray bits out.
Usually when you get new legislation it will refer to every other law/regulation that is related, affected or repealed to avoid just this sort of thing.
If so...it should be a pretty quick fix within the ministers AOR.....they can draft exceptions and tweek things a bit without too much fuss.

In the mean time that fat lacky should do what he is told and wait for further instructions or start working on his resumé.

As for the RCMP....they should have canned a couple people as soon as they started changing weapons categories in the weeks before the vote.

[plinker]

Originally Posted by ctd

How many vehicle collisions they respond to, how many gun, suicide threats.
At least 100 lives a day average in Ab alone, they may not save thousands a day directly in Ab but it wont be far off for Canada wide.

Boy do I have some breaking news for you about the members and MVA's. As a veteran retired paramedic, I cannot count how many times the RCMP were on scene first and did nothing but take notes. Never ever once did I arrive on scene to find a member doing first aid, CPR, anything!!! On many occasions they never got out of their cars until we (the ambulance) were about to leave. Firefighters do extraction, rescue, and control traffic. Paramedics work on the injured on scene, and RCMP take statements and at times control traffic. I was once one of the biggest cheerleaders of the RCMP but over the years I have had a harder and harder time doing that.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by 270WIN

I just got done firing off an email to Vic Toews thanking him, on behalf of myself and my wife, for the strong position he is taking against the CFOs who are attempting to defy the law of the land and undermine the will of the citizens of this country.
If everyone else on here who is offended by the illegal actions of these pencil pushing bureaucrats did the same it would do nothing but good.
We are often quick to criticize the people we elect to public office when they do something we disapprove of. It can't hurt at all to give them a pat on the back when they actually get it right.

I agree completely. Thanks for the reminder.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

All of the CFOs involved need to be immediately arrested for violating the new legislation. If the CFO's bosses resist, arrest them as well.

Also agree. Call out the army if they won't make the arrests themselves.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by plinker

Boy do I have some breaking news for you about the members and MVA's. As a veteran retired paramedic, I cannot count how many times the RCMP were on scene first and did nothing but take notes. Never ever once did I arrive on scene to find a member doing first aid, CPR, anything!!! On many occasions they never got out of their cars until we (the ambulance) were about to leave. Firefighters do extraction, rescue, and control traffic. Paramedics work on the injured on scene, and RCMP take statements and at times control traffic. I was once one of the biggest cheerleaders of the RCMP but over the years I have had a harder and harder time doing that.

Thanks for chiming in. We need to hear truth, not praise for our totems. I have stories, too, about racism and bullying and lying from my days living on the Res.

I can't say I was ever a big cheerleader, but I did have respect for them years ago. No more.

[brendan's dad]

When the federal government abolished the LGR direction was given that all information collected as a result of the LGR was to be destroyed. If the CFO ledgers were being used prior to the LGR (not sure if they were), maybe the CFO's are trying to avoid destroying the records based on the fact the information was not collected for the LGR but was common practice for the province.

Also, would private corporations like WSS and Cabelas be bound to abide by the destruction order or can they retain the store ledger stating it is their store policy to do so as opposed to the LGR rules. I do not believe the LGR put any onus on the stores to keep a ledger so they may also have a claim that it was not done for LGR purposes.

Provincial law can not violate the Charter and can not conflict with federal law. The thing is, there is no federal gun registry law, it was abolished. The destruction of LGR documents and records is not a law but an order from the minister. It is really going to suck if the provinces implement their own provincial laws in relation to gun registration... just like states boys... just like states... everything different once you cross the stateline!

Just Some Thoughts!

[brendan's dad]

What's that old saying:

"Sometimes the devil you don't know is worst then the devil you do!"

or is it...

"Beware of what you wish for!"

[slam]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

When the federal government abolished the LGR direction was given that all information collected as a result of the LGR was to be destroyed. If the CFO ledgers were being used prior to the LGR (not sure if they were), maybe the CFO's are trying to avoid destroying the records based on the fact the information was not collected for the LGR but was common practice for the province.

Also, would private corporations like WSS and Cabelas be bound to abide by the destruction order or can they retain the store ledger stating it is their store policy to do so as opposed to the LGR rules. I do not believe the LGR put any onus on the stores to keep a ledger so they may also have a claim that it was not done for LGR purposes.

Provincial law can not violate the Charter and can not conflict with federal law. The thing is, there is no federal gun registry law, it was abolished. The destruction of LGR documents and records is not a law but an order from the minister. It is really going to suck if the provinces implement their own provincial laws in relation to gun registration... just like states boys... just like states... everything different once you cross the stateline!

Just Some Thoughts!

Wrong read Clause 29 of Bill C19

[mudbug]

Originally Posted by plinker

This must end with all of the offending CFO's and senior RCMP involved having their employment terminated immediately.

I think their employment should be terminated as well!

[brendan's dad]

SLAM,

Clause 29(2) refers to information collected by the CFO for the purpose of gun registration. Thats why I asked if the CFO's ledgers were in use prior to the LGR being in effect. If so, then it would be hard to prove that the ledgers were kept for gun registration as opposed to keeping track of firearms sales within the province... there is a difference.

[brendan's dad]

And you are right the authority for the minister to order the destruction of documents comes from the bill, sorry for my error and mis-wording.

[dantonsen]

i read an article on sunday were Toews said he wouldn't stand in the way of provinces if they wanted their own registry.... Now he's going on about this stuff today? Make up your mind buddy,

I love watching the trainwreck that Harpers Divisive politics is creating... betcha anything it's a spat between Ontario and the feds.

Divide and conquer is a great policy if you're trying to conquer a country but not good when you're trying to run a country