Ontario CFO defies Minister Toews

[brendan's dad]

The other day I went into WSS and purchased a new weatherby sporter in 243, on sale for $479; super pumped. I was out of the store in 30 minutes with the scope mounted and ammo purchased. No LGR. no hassel, and quick service, thanks WSS southside... but they did record my name and PAL# in the ledger.

I was sick last week with a crazy bad stomach flu and I didn't get a chance until yesterday to get out with the gun. Now if a pull her out and discovered a broken firing pin or some other mechanical malfunction I would be on my way back to WSS right away.

I tell you I would have been fairly ****ed if the counter staff said "sorry sir we have no record of that transaction or that the purchase occured here, you will have to contact the manufacturer.

I am thinking we are forgetting why the LGR ****ed so many people off; 1. we didn't want to have to register some firearm that was handed down from my grandfather and never registered and 2. it was major hassel for private sales and contacting NB each time.

I believe that the recording of new gun sales in province in some form would be good for pro-gun groups in order to provide stats on legal sales vs illegal sales within province. We need these good statics to prove to the non-believers that the majority of gun owners are doing it right.


"You can't have it both ways!|"

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I believe that the recording of new gun sales in province in some form would be good for pro-gun groups in order to provide stats on legal sales vs illegal sales within province.

If that's what you believe, do it.

I believe otherwise.

We need these good statics to prove to the non-believers that the majority of gun owners are doing it right.

I have nothing to prove to anyone, least of all the anti-gun crowd. If you feel differently, fill your boots.

I know what they will do with the information and I'm not going to like it.

BTW, since when did Gun Zombies get interested in facts?

[elkhunter11]

The other day I went into WSS and purchased a new weatherby sporter in 243, on sale for $479; super pumped. I was out of the store in 30 minutes with the scope mounted and ammo purchased. No LGR. no hassel, and quick service, thanks WSS southside... but they did record my name and PAL# in the ledger.

I was sick last week with a crazy bad stomach flu and I didn't get a chance until yesterday to get out with the gun. Now if a pull her out and discovered a broken firing pin or some other mechanical malfunction I would be on my way back to WSS right away.

I tell you I would have been fairly ****ed if the counter staff said "sorry sir we have no record of that transaction or that the purchase occured here, you will have to contact the manufacturer.

So what happens if your new television is defective? There is no license required to acquire televisions,and no ledger is kept for televisions, yet a simple register receipt is acceptable as proof of purchase for warranty work. Why wouldn't the same apply to firearms?

[blueskys]

They are talking about this topic on the Rutherford show right now.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

The other day I went into WSS and purchased a new weatherby sporter in 243, on sale for $479; super pumped. I was out of the store in 30 minutes with the scope mounted and ammo purchased. No LGR. no hassel, and quick service, thanks WSS southside... but they did record my name and PAL# in the ledger.

I was sick last week with a crazy bad stomach flu and I didn't get a chance until yesterday to get out with the gun. Now if a pull her out and discovered a broken firing pin or some other mechanical malfunction I would be on my way back to WSS right away.

I tell you I would have been fairly ****ed if the counter staff said "sorry sir we have no record of that transaction or that the purchase occured here, you will have to contact the manufacturer.


!|"

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So what happens if your new television is defective? There is no license required to acquire televisions,and no ledger is kept for televisions, yet a simple register receipt is acceptable as proof of purchase for warranty work. Why wouldn't the same apply to firearms?

Remember the days when Russels also kept a ledger on higher end optics? Bought a set of Swaro's there and they were recorded in a ledger.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ledgers of the old days were required to be kept for 5 years, then destroyed. That is what I was always told when I questioned it anyways. I noticed a previous poster saying they were to be turned over to RCMP after the 5 year period, I'd never heard that one before.

[brendan's dad]

Yeah, and that's what happens with a TV, they direct you right to the manufacture for warranty... I don't want that to happen. I want the problem to be addressed at the store, that's the point.

It was interesting that Rocky pointed out the article in toronto sun about the city council pressuring the provincial official (can't remember the exact wording). Yeaterday we had another long thread on the province back dooring the registry; basically the same issue.

Prior to the LGR the public had some preception that guns were not just walking out of stores without some type of record check and recording who purchased it; whether it was in a CFO's ledger or a notebook at the gun store, something was keeping track of it.

Rocky
You may not care about what 6 million gun-hater in Toronto think, but the Ontario provincial government and Ottawa sure does. And if we go from the LGR to absoultely nothing, there is going to be a ****storm coming for sure for somebody.

We already won our battle with the LGR, maybe we should give the POW's a few scraps!

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Remember the days when Russels also kept a ledger on higher end optics? Bought a set of Swaro's there and they were recorded in a ledger.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ledgers of the old days were required to be kept for 5 years, then destroyed. That is what I was always told when I questioned it anyways. I noticed a previous poster saying they were to be turned over to RCMP after the 5 year period, I'd never heard that one before.

Yup. There's always going to be a leger. I remember when Russell's kept one for people that bought powder. I like the idea of destruction after 5 years. I think where the line gets crossed is when that ledger must be turned over to the CFO and it becomes a permanent record of gun ownership. Trying to read through all the bluff and bluster, that seems to be the fight in Ottawa right now....not whether a leger is kept but what happens to that info ultimately.

For those really worried, Huntinstuff has offered to be the guy that buys all new guns in Alberta and then sell them without record to Albertans with a PAL.

[brendan's dad]

MountainTi,

I don't doubt that the records were kept by the RCMP, they were the governing body in relation to firearms at the time.

They are being hammered now for keeping them but probably back then they would have been criticized for destroying the only documents of the sale... who knows.

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

MountainTi,

I don't doubt that the records were kept by the RCMP, they were the governing body in relation to firearms at the time.

Not from what I can gather. Pre registration a leger was kept in store and could be inspected by RCMP but the RCMP maintained no permanent record of who bought what. And that's the way it should be again....IMHO

[Mike_W]

For the record this is bull any little strings hanging onto the old LGR just puts the possibility of it being re-established that much closer to a reality.
For the record I sold all my old registered long guns and when I buy a new one I usually sell it that same day!!

[elkhunter11]

Yeah, and that's what happens with a TV, they direct you right to the manufacture for warranty... I don't want that to happen. I want the problem to be addressed at the store, that's the point.

What you want doesn't happen in many cases regardless of the product. Some dealers will exchange or have a defective firearm repaired, just as some stores will exchange or have defective television repaired. Other dealers will send you to the manufacturer regardless of the product. It's not about the product, it's about having your PAL number recorded when it isn't required by law, and in fact might be in contravention to the law.

[dantonsen]

Do you guys honestly think CFC or other parts of government are going to care if some Joe bought a shot gun for duck hunting last week??

There are 25 million guns in Canada, I'm pretty sure rcmp and csis have bigger fish to fry and aren't hiding up in a tree monitoring whether or not your using a .22 or a .223 to plink gophers off today


What is Allison Redford going to merge alberta with europe and become a socialist gun registry republic so we can't fight back when they start a national energy program and have to give all our oil to the french for 20$ barrel and let teachers drive for free?LOL

Gun stores could probably make a few bucks selling tinfoil hats to all the nuts that frequent the places. Not saying all are nuts but there are a few,

[coppercarbide]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I tell you I would have been fairly ****ed if the counter staff said "sorry sir we have no record of that transaction or that the purchase occured here, you will have to contact the manufacturer.


"You can't have it both ways!|"

Not sure if this is a stupid question or if you are trolling.
However, we usually use this neato thing called a receipt for issues like that.

[brendan's dad]

Probably trolling..... but having lots of fun though.

[Arn?Narn.]

I can tell you from my very limited experience of collecting data that there laws broken all the time and never challenged.

To collect and keep data on individuals, you must be authorized to do so by law or the individual.

Let's say the governement of Alberta wanted a report on the 1 yr and 5 yr status of cardiac bypass patients. You collect 1000 cardiac bypass patients who have just had the surgery. You follow up at one year and then again at 5 years. You have all this patient information in your database.

Well lets assume that 30 of the patients die at year three.

You no longer have the authority to be in posession of their information and it must be destroyed. They no longer fit the within the authority you had to collect and gather information.

People are very obliging I have noticed. For example, providing name and address and PAL# for a ledger that is authorized by whom????
Where is the ledgar kept? Is it secure? What is your definition of secure? will you sell the ledger to related companies so they may target consumers?

We are all ready on so many illegal databases, it is not even funny.... why this stuff doesn't get questioned more is beyond me...

Some store wants to know your name, address, PAL #, record it in a book that get's kept under the counter for all staff to view (is there any confidentiality agreement?) etc etc etc etc....
It's BS!

[Hagalaz]

Originally Posted by Skybuster

Maybe I am thickheaded, but what is the point of CFO's having the information on new gun sales stored. There is no LGR to govern further sales of the gun, ie private, once the owner sells the gun privately the stored information is now incorrect. In no time at all, the collected data is wrong and misleading. It can't be used or trusted, so what is the point of collecting the data in the first place?

If they can create their own firearms registry, one that is clearly running against the established law, then what is stopping them from eventually confiscating all said firearms?

When it comes to firearms rights, my faith in this country is almost non-existant.

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

The other day I went into WSS and purchased a new weatherby sporter in 243, on sale for $479; super pumped. I was out of the store in 30 minutes with the scope mounted and ammo purchased. No LGR. no hassel, and quick service, thanks WSS southside... but they did record my name and PAL# in the ledger.

I was sick last week with a crazy bad stomach flu and I didn't get a chance until yesterday to get out with the gun. Now if a pull her out and discovered a broken firing pin or some other mechanical malfunction I would be on my way back to WSS right away.

I tell you I would have been fairly ****ed if the counter staff said "sorry sir we have no record of that transaction or that the purchase occured here, you will have to contact the manufacturer.

I am thinking we are forgetting why the LGR ****ed so many people off; 1. we didn't want to have to register some firearm that was handed down from my grandfather and never registered and 2. it was major hassel for private sales and contacting NB each time.

I believe that the recording of new gun sales in province in some form would be good for pro-gun groups in order to provide stats on legal sales vs illegal sales within province. We need these good statics to prove to the non-believers that the majority of gun owners are doing it right.


"You can't have it both ways!|"

Surely you"re not telling us you would walk out of the store without a bill of sale or reciept of some kind.I get a reciept for everything I buy,That doesnt mean the store has to record all my personal info and save it for someone else.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Hagalaz

If they can create their own firearms registry, one that is clearly running against the established law, then what is stopping them from eventually confiscating all said firearms?

When it comes to firearms rights, my faith in this country is almost non-existant.

Key word right there. We in this country do not have rights when it comes to firearms, we have privelages

[Scar270]

If a store keeps a record for warranty, that is their choice, as it's my choice to shop there. However that data should be protected, and should only be available to police under a warrant.

If it's required by the CFO, and in a book that is CFO property, they can check it as they please, take it to the office and scan it into a database.

Also, why should gun dealers have to record this stuff to prove they sold the gun legally, do you all want to have to start having your drivers licence recorded everytime you purchase alcohol or tobacco products so the stores can prove they are not selling to minors?

[Hagalaz]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Key word right there. We in this country do not have rights when it comes to firearms, we have privelages

You want to argue semantics? Fine, have fun.

You know the point I was trying to make.

[ctd]

When you buy a new Vehicle it is registered, your name, address, bank info etc. You need a licence to drive one.
Firearm, they record your name, address and licence number. FAC. Hmmm pretty similar,
What for it they are going to take away our vehicles also. Better bury my new truck out back.

As for warrenty of tvs and such. If you dont fill out the warrenty card and return it within so many days then the store/ manufacturer do not by law have to return/ exchange or fix it. IF it is outside of the mandatory return policy ie 30 return/ exchange.
(for the most part so many people whine, snivlle and complain about their god given rights, that most store will just handle the complaint directly to avoid being sued)

[elkhunter11]

When you buy a new Vehicle it is registered, your name, address, bank info etc. You need a licence to drive one.

I don't need a license to purchase a vehicle, and I don't need a license to drive it on private property. If I choose to drive a vehicle on public roadways, I register it with the province, not with the federal government or with the RCMP.

[insurgus]

Originally Posted by 270WIN

I just got done firing off an email to Vic Toews thanking him, on behalf of myself and my wife, for the strong position he is taking against the CFOs who are attempting to defy the law of the land and undermine the will of the citizens of this country.
If everyone else on here who is offended by the illegal actions of these pencil pushing bureaucrats did the same it would do nothing but good.
We are often quick to criticize the people we elect to public office when they do something we disapprove of. It can't hurt at all to give them a pat on the back when they actually get it right.

I sent him a letter. This sh!t ends now.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Hagalaz

You want to argue semantics? Fine, have fun.

You know the point I was trying to make.

Sorry bud, not arguing semantics. I know the point you were trying to make. Just pointing out the fact that unfortuntately we as Canadian citizens have no rights when it comes to firearms

[greylynx]

[QUOTE=dantonsen;1432907]Do you guys honestly think CFC or other parts of government are going to care if some Joe bought a shot gun for duck hunting last week??

In Ontario, the police are already chasing down senior citizens who did not renew a POL for little stuff like .22s and charging them under the criminal code.

Like what planet have you been on for the past 17 years.


Are you one of those people who believes that nothing will happen to them because they are so called law abiding citizens? If you are, you are the preferred low hanging fruit the cops love to go for. Just like those old folgies in Ontario.

[silver]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Key word right there. We in this country do not have rights when it comes to firearms, we have privelages

We do have rights, citizens have rights, subjects have priveleges.

[riden]

So this was at the bottom of CBC's article on Toew's statement, and was there almost immerdiately:
This article has been edited from an earlier version that said federal law requiring gun vendors to maintain ledgers of firearms sold did not change with passage of the bill to kill the gun registry. In fact, this is the subject of an apparent dispute between the RCMP, provincial firearms officers and the Public Safety Minister

Has anyone heard the RCMP standpoint in the dispute?

[insurgus]

Originally Posted by riden

So this was at the bottom of CBC's article on Toew's statement, and was there almost immerdiately:
This article has been edited from an earlier version that said federal law requiring gun vendors to maintain ledgers of firearms sold did not change with passage of the bill to kill the gun registry. In fact, this is the subject of an apparent dispute between the RCMP, provincial firearms officers and the Public Safety Minister

Has anyone heard the RCMP standpoint in the dispute?

You could probably guess. If it takes money out of their pockets, their against it. If it puts money in them, they're for it.

[horsetrader]

[QUOTE=greylynx;1433536]

Originally Posted by dantonsen

Do you guys honestly think CFC or other parts of government are going to care if some Joe bought a shot gun for duck hunting last week??

In Ontario, the police are already chasing down senior citizens who did not renew a POL for little stuff like .22s and charging them under the criminal code.

Like what planet have you been on for the past 17 years.


Are you one of those people who believes that nothing will happen to them because they are so called law abiding citizens? If you are, you are the preferred low hanging fruit the cops love to go for. Just like those old folgies in Ontario.

Can you post a link to this. Seems funny my dad still is in Ont and has not renewed his and has had no issues. and can't see others having any with the amnesty in affect until May 16 2013 .....

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by riden

So this was at the bottom of CBC's article on Toew's statement, and was there almost immerdiately:
This article has been edited from an earlier version that said federal law requiring gun vendors to maintain ledgers of firearms sold did not change with passage of the bill to kill the gun registry. In fact, this is the subject of an apparent dispute between the RCMP, provincial firearms officers and the Public Safety Minister

Has anyone heard the RCMP standpoint in the dispute?

Media Sources are currently unable to obtain anything substantive from the RCMP.