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  #121  
Old 10-23-2016, 10:00 PM
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its gone based on what?
2 minus 3
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  #122  
Old 10-24-2016, 05:15 AM
Mb-MBR Mb-MBR is offline
 
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Article in Globe and Mail....


Is it time for a moose tax?
Faced with declining game populations and the increasing complexities of wildlife management, people are starting to look at new funding models.
And a tax to help moose and other game animals might be one way to go.

A few years ago, in response to growing concerns that British Columbia’s moose numbers were in decline, the provincial government conducted 20 population surveys. The results were troubling. While in some places numbers were stable, in many regions moose numbers had declined by 50 per cent to 70 per cent.
Word quickly spread among the hunting community about which areas held the fewest moose, and soon there was a pile-on in regions that still had good numbers. That caused alarm in some First Nations communities, where people saw outsiders coming in to shoot moose that local families needed for winter food.
Some aboriginal hunters responded to the dwindling amount of moose by abandoning cultural practices. Instead of only harvesting bulls, they started shooting cows.
All of this, of course, combined to make the situation worse.
In response, the province launched a five-year moose study, which is expected to provide valuable information on the reasons some moose populations are crashing. Hunting is just one factor; logging practices in the wake of the pine beetle epidemic and a proliferation of resource roads are also thought to be contributing causes.
But B.C. isn’t waiting until the study is complete to act. Last week Forests, Lands and Natural Resources Minister Steve Thomson announced he is putting $1.2-million into moose management immediately.
That expenditure came in response to a report by consultant Al Gorley, who outlined the need for broad policy reforms to help restore moose populations.
In a statement, Mr. Thomson said the government would act on all 21 recommendations made by Mr. Gorley, a registered professional forester with Triangle Resources Inc.
Many of Mr. Gorley’s proposals were so general that it is hard to imagine anyone objecting to them. Such as one that calls on government to adopt a policy goal “that recognizes the importance of moose to British Columbians.”
But embedded in some of Mr. Gorley’s recommendations are options that, if adopted, would cause fundamental changes to the way wildlife is managed in the province – and to the way that management is funded.
For example, in addressing the problem of moose being killed in train and vehicle collisions, Mr. Gorley notes some stakeholders “have suggested a compensation program, whereby a fee would be paid for each animal killed and the money invested in wildlife management.”
That could be a significant amount. Data on wildlife strikes is inconsistent, but one study of a 200-kilometre stretch of railway between Telkwa and Smithers found about 500 moose were killed over a five-year period. Extrapolated across the province, that could be thousands of moose lost.
Mr. Gorley also points out that not all industries provide “compensation funds” when their activities damage moose habitat. BC Hydro makes such payments, as do some natural gas projects.
But Mr. Gorley states that “moose population enhancement objectives [should be] applicable to all industries.”
Such compensation payments wouldn’t amount to a direct tax, but the result would be much the same, with more money flowing from industry into wildlife management.
The BC Wildlife Federation goes a step farther in a paper in which the organization calls for a tax on “outdoor recreation gear,” which would broaden the funding base to non-hunters.
The BCWF also points out that while hunting licences and fees bring the province $14.5-million, only $2.6-million of that is dedicated to the Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation, which funds fish and wildlife conservation projects. The BCWF wants all those hunting licence fees to be spent on wildlife.
“Nearly every jurisdiction in North America has a dedicated funding model for fish and wildlife management: BC does not,” the BCWF states. “BC needs a new, innovative approach to wildlife management which is financially stable, and results based.”
New taxes are never popular. But in B.C., a wildlife tax would likely find broad support, especially if it helped produce more moose.
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  #123  
Old 10-24-2016, 06:01 AM
Njati Njati is offline
 
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I worked with a native fellow a few years back and he was bragging about how his father shot 27 moose that winter and was selling the meat to the newfies in Fort Mac. So ya natives aren't part of the problem.
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  #124  
Old 10-24-2016, 06:10 AM
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Typical BC gov solution : throw money at a problem without a clear objective or goal in mind before fully understanding the issue. It's a shame, the province would be such a great place to live absent the ding dongs that govern it and the Vancouver liberals that vote for them.

I think Alberta should create more Wildland Parks and make the current ones larger. The places that restrict motorized vehicle access would see dink all for FN hunters and it would give the moose a chance to recover. Not to mention harvest rates by licensed hunters would also decrease in those areas.

I'm also in favor or implementing antler size restrictions on bulls taken. This is already done in BC and in Alaska for non resident hunters. No reason it can't be done here.

And finally, get your hunting buddies out hunting bears in the spring, especially in the 2 tag wmus. Don't wait around for a giant boar either. It ain't just the 8 and 9 footers eating moose calves.
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  #125  
Old 10-24-2016, 06:16 AM
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Typical BC gov solution : throw money at a problem without a clear objective or goal in mind before fully understanding the issue. It's a shame, the province would be such a great place to live absent the ding dongs that govern it and the Vancouver liberals that vote for them.

I think Alberta should create more Wildland Parks and make the current ones larger. The places that restrict motorized vehicle access would see dink all for FN hunters and it would give the moose a chance to recover. Not to mention harvest rates by licensed hunters would also decrease in those areas.

I'm also in favor or implementing antler size restrictions on bulls taken. This is already done in BC and in Alaska for non resident hunters. No reason it can't be done here.

And finally, get your hunting buddies out hunting bears in the spring, especially in the 2 tag wmus. Don't wait around for a giant boar either. It ain't just the 8 and 9 footers eating moose calves.

I would also add, that our government could put a decent $$$ bounty on wolves to thin them out, hunting ain't free!

This could also help supplement FNP incomes.
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  #126  
Old 10-24-2016, 07:42 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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I worked with a native fellow a few years back and he was bragging about how his father shot 27 moose that winter and was selling the meat to the newfies in Fort Mac. So ya natives aren't part of the problem.
That reminds me of a sting conducted by F&W called Operation Tamarack, where a group of individuals were killing game animals and selling them for meat. One individual from the Janvier area bragged to an undercover officer that he had killed and sold over 50 moose in less than a year. Between that individual and the rest of the people involved, they killed more moose than all of the hunters put together in those wmus. I am sure that Cat will remember this incident.

http://www.gamewarden.ab.ca/agwa/his...nter_2003.html
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  #127  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:43 AM
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In the area I hunt there is heavy FN pressure. They do take their fair share, and mostly off the main roads to be sure. So be it. I know more than a few of them and believe it or not more than 1 hunt only with a cross bow! The vast majority only harvest what they need for their family and nothing more. We all hear and read about the FN horror stories but their are just as many on the other side of the fence as well! Think about it!

As their hunting activity and rights and other entitlements are a Federal gov't responsibility and the management of game populations and regulation of people not covered by Federal treaty is Provincially mandated resolving management issues between the 2 groups is going to be like pulling hen's teeth. The Feds / Provinces can't agree on anything.

NOTHING is getting done across the country about anything! For us to think we can get them to agree about Moose or other game problems is likely academic at best.

This year we have seen more moose than anyone can remember. What stands out to me is no calves. None. Lots of mature cows, mature bulls and not 1 calf from this year. Bears everywhere, blacks and grizz. Cougar tracks everywhere, thinking a big Tom. Wolf tracks all over every road, trail or other disturbance you see. Bear, cougar and wolf sightings very common. Much more common than moose or elk sightings.

We have a wolf bounty but the local government ran out of funds on it a couple months ago. They had $15000 in the budget and at $300 a wolf ran out of money in approx 7 months.

Other posters on here also mention predators being a big issue.

Maybe we need to enlist FN hunters in helping to control the predator population by extending bounties or other incentives? Every little bit would help. Just a thought.
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  #128  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:44 AM
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i am faily new to hunting (4 years now ) my family has a farm an lots of land in 510 and 505 . i always wonderd why do they issue a draw for calf moose . doesnt seem very logical if you want a spices to reproduce an thrive when you can hunt the little ones. theyare the future of the spices . it dont make any sense to me . we will see the same cow moose in a field all summer with littles ones then come nov 1st theres no more little ones.
The perceived population effects from harvesting some calves is largely abated by compensatory mortality (i.e. the calf you shoot would have a certain probability of not surviving anyway). In Scandinavia, for example, they shoot a lot of calves (they also employ some intensive management strategies for maximum moose production) but places like Sweden have 350 000 moose and they hunt up to 100 000 annually! Shooting mature cows is more deleterious than taking calves as their survival and reproductive potential increases with age.
On the issue of brain worm I believe there was a moose with brain worm found near Calgary this year (at the Cross Conservation Area).
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  #129  
Old 10-24-2016, 09:24 AM
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Last year I came across a cow west of Rimbey, 30 yds from the gravel road. She could only lift her head when I pulled up to it . So I got out had a closer look as this was very disturbing thinking it had been wounded and left to die. But found that she was very sick , skin and bones. I put her out of her misery , skinned her out and found no marks or wounds, so she was sick from something.
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  #130  
Old 10-24-2016, 08:56 PM
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Last year I came across a cow west of Rimbey, 30 yds from the gravel road. She could only lift her head when I pulled up to it . So I got out had a closer look as this was very disturbing thinking it had been wounded and left to die. But found that she was very sick , skin and bones. I put her out of her misery , skinned her out and found no marks or wounds, so she was sick from something.
this is with a tag or just a mercy take home ... the thread is about moose populations reducing ... I like your idea ....

Last edited by Rio56; 10-24-2016 at 09:11 PM.
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  #131  
Old 10-24-2016, 09:24 PM
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No wolves or bears either.
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Originally Posted by D-Dub View Post
Or FN hunters.
Wrong..... and wrong. 😊
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  #132  
Old 10-24-2016, 09:33 PM
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Last season between Oct 1st and end of november.. I saw 36 moose.. only...on weekends. So far this year I'm up to 17 from oct 1st. Past two years i have seen alot of triplet calves. No idea the moose numbers were on the decline?

I see more moose ...grouse ... and bighorn than I do deer. Wish it was the other way around...can't seem to find a monster buck in daylight to save my life. 🤔🤔
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  #133  
Old 10-24-2016, 10:08 PM
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Wrong..... and wrong. 😊
Yup the Camrose/stettler bears/wolves keep the moose population in check..
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  #134  
Old 10-24-2016, 11:41 PM
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Last season between Oct 1st and end of november.. I saw 36 moose.. only...on weekends. So far this year I'm up to 17 from oct 1st. Past two years i have seen alot of triplet calves. No idea the moose numbers were on the decline?

I see more moose ...grouse ... and bighorn than I do deer. Wish it was the other way around...can't seem to find a monster buck in daylight to save my life. 🤔🤔
But where are you hunting ?

There's a problem when the 357 (farmland) moose numbers are 10 times that of the ones in 356 (bush) and the zones touch each other.

Way lower wolf numbers, bears not killing nearly as many calves and not a cousin in sight because it's all private land in 357. This should be all the info they need.
Oh and hunters kill more moose in 357 too, including the antlerless draw that's been there for the last 10 years.
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  #135  
Old 10-25-2016, 07:47 AM
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Moose are pretty scarce and getting scarcer around here except for farmland, lots on the farmland.
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  #136  
Old 10-25-2016, 07:52 AM
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Thank God for Private Farmland! Except for fur bearing critters, the wilderness areas are becoming eerily quiet.
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  #137  
Old 10-25-2016, 07:55 AM
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Still a few around where i hunt but sure not like it was 20 years ago. While coyote hunting in February last year i found 6 different spots where moose had been killed on private land. 2 of the 6 spots the moose had been shot at night as i had drove the areas the evening before and never saw anything, the next morning you could see where they had been dragged out.
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  #138  
Old 10-25-2016, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
But where are you hunting ?

There's a problem when the 357 (farmland) moose numbers are 10 times that of the ones in 356 (bush) and the zones touch each other.

Way lower wolf numbers, bears not killing nearly as many calves and not a cousin in sight because it's all private land in 357. This should be all the info they need.
Oh and hunters kill more moose in 357 too, including the antlerless draw that's been there for the last 10 years.
x2

In 356 I used to see an average of 6 moose per day, with my reccord at 15 moose in 3 hours. The last 2 years has been very different, can go days without any sighting.

There's no more wolves or bears than before, only more unlicensed hunting activity.
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  #139  
Old 10-25-2016, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
But where are you hunting ?

There's a problem when the 357 (farmland) moose numbers are 10 times that of the ones in 356 (bush) and the zones touch each other.

Way lower wolf numbers, bears not killing nearly as many calves and not a cousin in sight because it's all private land in 357. This should be all the info they need.
Oh and hunters kill more moose in 357 too, including the antlerless draw that's been there for the last 10 years.
This question nails the issues. The areas of this Province where Moose populations are healthy and growing have low Wolf populations. They also have a high percentage of private land which leads to less FN hunting. It's no secret why moose populations are bad in the North or in areas where Crown land is very accessible.
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  #140  
Old 10-25-2016, 03:10 PM
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It's pretty easy to blame the rapid decline of some game populations in Alberta and elsewhere on Wolves, FN and habitat loss. For sure they are all factors but there is another one. A search of the hunting threads on this forum would reveal we have a problem right in our midst.

There appears to be many families on here .. Mom, Pop, some kids and Grandpa that all have Win Cards and regularly apply for several different draws . Often, multiple draws are awarded annually and seemingly often filled. What really makes this any different from an FN family doing the same thing ?
Sure, we are on a Draw system and FN are not but it's us that are calling on FN people to show some restraint. Just a bit confusing that it is never mentioned on here .. just Congratulations to Mom & Jr on getting their first Moose this year. What gives in the finger pointing Dept ?
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  #141  
Old 10-25-2016, 03:26 PM
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It's pretty easy to blame the rapid decline of some game populations in Alberta and elsewhere on Wolves, FN and habitat loss. For sure they are all factors but there is another one. A search of the hunting threads on this forum would reveal we have a problem right in our midst.

There appears to be many families on here .. Mom, Pop, some kids and Grandpa that all have Win Cards and regularly apply for several different draws . Often, multiple draws are awarded annually and seemingly often filled. What really makes this any different from an FN family doing the same thing ?
Sure, we are on a Draw system and FN are not but it's us that are calling on FN people to show some restraint. Just a bit confusing that it is never mentioned on here .. just Congratulations to Mom & Jr on getting their first Moose this year. What gives in the finger pointing Dept ?

Are you being serious? I can't tell.

If you are being serious I'll help you out with s couple of your points. First off, there has been restraints placed on the people hunting in Alberta under an Alberta hunting license, that's why we have something called a "draw". Secondly, there is finger pointing that goes on here when people go out and fill every one of their tags, when they load up on their supplimentals but the mods frown on that type of feedback and the posts get removed or thread gets shut down.
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  #142  
Old 10-25-2016, 04:12 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Are you being serious? I can't tell.

If you are being serious I'll help you out with s couple of your points. First off, there has been restraints placed on the people hunting in Alberta under an Alberta hunting license, that's why we have something called a "draw". Secondly, there is finger pointing that goes on here when people go out and fill every one of their tags, when they load up on their supplimentals but the mods frown on that type of feedback and the posts get removed or thread gets shut down.
Kinda Serious lol.
I searched several older threads on the subject and didn't turn up much other than a few comments on the Supplemental thingy. I did not find anything relating to single families submitting multiple draw applications annually for several different species.
This practice skew's the draw system and makes it even more difficult for others who would like to "fill the freezer".. but it's legal ,so why not ?
My comments were intended to indicate that we are not a unique group
who are victims of the actions of others. As I've said before, "the good old days are now". Take what we can, when we can, as long as we can. ..as long as it's legal
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  #143  
Old 10-27-2016, 08:50 AM
R3illy R3illy is offline
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https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ne...eres-why/73765

Interesting the article on moose specifically... This one actually uses a bit of data showing moose numbers going from 80k to 115k over a few years.. then back to around 93k where it sits currently.

They dont blame one group. There are 4-5 major issues.

Another recent story from bc mentiones one stretch of road killed 500 moose over a few years.. that was just one stretch.

Id be curious to read any alberta articles if there are any on moose numbers. The ops original article was an opinion piece not backed by any numbers.. he failed to mention how ontario managed to significantly increase moose numbers over so many years.
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  #144  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
It's pretty easy to blame the rapid decline of some game populations in Alberta and elsewhere on Wolves, FN and habitat loss. For sure they are all factors but there is another one. A search of the hunting threads on this forum would reveal we have a problem right in our midst.

There appears to be many families on here .. Mom, Pop, some kids and Grandpa that all have Win Cards and regularly apply for several different draws . Often, multiple draws are awarded annually and seemingly often filled. What really makes this any different from an FN family doing the same thing ?
Sure, we are on a Draw system and FN are not but it's us that are calling on FN people to show some restraint. Just a bit confusing that it is never mentioned on here .. just Congratulations to Mom & Jr on getting their first Moose this year. What gives in the finger pointing Dept ?
Wow, I am sure some of that is happening, huge differences though, it is done within the special license system which only gives out a managed amount of tags. Also the system doesn't allow the person holding the special license to harvest all year around any sex they would like, killing pregnant cows is detrimental to the population.
At the end of the day if 100 draws are issued for a wmu the numbers in the animal counts lows for this to keep the population healthy, it's all the other numbers that are going on that is impossible to mange healthy herds.
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  #145  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:05 AM
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I think a good start would be mandatory reporting of sex/WMU where moose are harvested by any and all hunters. We need data to support theories.

There should be no objections to this...right?

LC
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  #146  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:16 AM
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Are you being serious? I can't tell.

. Secondly, there is finger pointing that goes on here when people go out and fill every one of their tags, when they load up on their supplimentals but the mods frown on that type of feedback and the posts get removed or thread gets shut down.
It is how the finger pointing is conducted , the accusations and outright insulting that will get a thread like that closed , not the fact that it is brought up .
Cat
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  #147  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:22 AM
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I think a good start would be mandatory reporting of sex/WMU where moose are harvested by any and all hunters. We need data to support theories.

There should be no objections to this...right?

LC
Just search the forum for old game harvest survey threads and you'll see a major opposition to this.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...=239389&page=2
Granted the current survey not disclosing the data doesn't help us identify if it is helping. However there was a lot of opposition to the idea as proven by that old thread... Lots of comments on skewing the data.
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  #148  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:26 AM
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The game harvest survey should be a mandatory, legal document of some kind.
Or just electronically filling tags being mandatory could help. Then you would be forced to enter harvest, sex, wmu etc.... whatever they want for data
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  #149  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:31 AM
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Just search the forum for old game harvest survey threads and you'll see a major opposition to this.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...=239389&page=2
Granted the current survey not disclosing the data doesn't help us identify if it is helping. However there was a lot of opposition to the idea as proven by that old thread... Lots of comments on skewing the data.
Yup, all hunters regardless of origin are stewards of the lands, so why the opposition?

LC
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  #150  
Old 10-27-2016, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
Yup, all hunters regardless of origin are stewards of the lands, so why the opposition?

LC
Read page 1 of that link I just posted… Not only yourself but there were several other members in opposition to our current game harvest survey as dishonesty could cause the numbers to be skewed. While I agreed with you to a point,and know your opinion has since changed a little bit there are still people who don't feel it's important to fill it out. That's where I believe an electronic tag system would be the best. If people had to carry an app on their device and register their kills immediately, that data could be gleaned without pulling teeth and it would be 100% accurate. Yes there will still be poachers who don't electronically register their kill right away. But the same is happening now with guys keeping their tags in their pocket hoping to not get caught.
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