Moose populations in trouble

[HoytCRX32]

Not to harp on predator control, but one pack of 10 wolves can easily consume one moose per day. How many packs of wolves do you suppose are in Alberta? Even accounting for other types of animals killed and not including other predators, the math is scary.
The days of letting nature take care of this are long gone, as human intervention (integration?) has forever altered this balance.
As long as the politicians only have ears for special interest groups who would be happy to see more wolves, more grizzlies, more everything and less (or no) hunting, increasing moose populations is unlikely.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

Read page 1 of that link I just posted… Not only yourself but there were several other members in opposition to our current game harvest survey as dishonesty could cause the numbers to be skewed. While I agreed with you to a point,and know your opinion has since changed a little bit there are still people who don't feel it's important to fill it out. That's where I believe an electronic tag system would be the best. If people had to carry an app on their device and register their kills immediately, that data could be gleaned without pulling teeth and it would be 100% accurate. Yes there will still be poachers who don't electronically register their kill right away. But the same is happening now with guys keeping their tags in their pocket hoping to not get caught.

Those are voluntary, my point then and now is what good is data if it isn't collected consistently. Mandatory is different than voluntary. Also FN hunting is not recorded either voluntary or mandatory, so there is a large segment of data missing.

LC

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Those are voluntary, my point then and now is what good is data if it isn't collected consistently. Mandatory is different than voluntary. Also FN hunting is not recorded either voluntary or mandatory, so there is a large segment of data missing.

LC

I agree with that 100%. Mandatory submission will not change the dishonesty factor though. Or perhaps it can be a legally binding document? It's hard to close the loopholes with something like that. And yes the first Nations should have to register their kills as well. Especially if this is about stewardship. I fully believe that the first nations would be on board with conservation if we could collect the data properly

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

I agree with that 100%. Mandatory submission will not change the dishonesty factor though. Or perhaps it can be a legally binding document? It's hard to close the loopholes with something like that. And yes the first Nations should have to register their kills as well. Especially if this is about stewardship. I fully believe that the first nations would be on board with conservation if we could collect the data properly

For example related to mandatory reporting, You can actually get a ticket for not submitting heads of deer in CWD zones (certain zones its mandatory) dishonesty will always exist because I would bet not everyone bothers with this. Any data where you rely on the populace to participate is going to have erroneous entries, but I guess many look at it and say some is better than none....or is it?

LC

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

For example related to mandatory reporting, You can actually get a ticket for not submitting heads of deer in CWD zones (certain zones its mandatory) dishonesty will always exist because I would bet not everyone bothers with this. Any data where you rely on the populace to participate is going to have erroneous entries, but I guess many look at it and say some is better than none....or is it?

LC

I guess being an honest person myself maybe I give people too much benefit of the doubt. That could be a fault or perhaps I'm right. It's really hard to say. However I'm sure there's a mandatory game harvest surveys in other jurisdictions. I'd be curious to see how those are working… It seems like in the day of technology that we have now that game harvest survey that is mandatory for four EVERYONE shouldn't be hard to produce.
I would be curious to hear from some first nations that are on this board. Would you champion conservation in this province? I'm sure there's enough first nation demographic on here to chime in…

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Those are voluntary, my point then and now is what good is data if it isn't collected consistently. Mandatory is different than voluntary. Also FN hunting is not recorded either voluntary or mandatory, so there is a large segment of data missing.

LC

FN hunting is recorded in some places the same as non FN, for example FN must register sheep/goat/cougar the same as the rest and is recorded. There are some offices that record volunteer data on FN harvest. Although i do agree there are big holes with most harvest species not mandatory recorded. I would see it as a benefit to all with modern technology for all kills to be recorded, would probably be a nightmare to organize that data getting it off the ground though

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by RockyMountainMusic

FN hunting is recorded in some places the same as non FN, for example FN must register sheep/goat/cougar the same as the rest and is recorded. There are some offices that record volunteer data on FN harvest. Although i do agree there are big holes with most harvest species not mandatory recorded. I would see it as a benefit to all with modern technology for all kills to be recorded, would probably be a nightmare to organize that data getting it off the ground though

Yes it would be a challenge. But you have to start somewhere. I don't think building an app would require a whole lot of effort. It's just data entry. I'd be willing to see licensing costs go up a buck or two for the next two or three years to pay for the development of that program. I have a Ziploc bag full of tags and licenses that I can't stand packing around. And you kill two birds as the electronic tag system would become your mandatory data collection vehicle....

[chugg]

Originally Posted by drake

That "1000" treaty hunter (less than 1% of the population you quote) is not evenly distribut throughout the province nor does it account for the out of province FN hunters....unaccounted harvest by FN hunters 365 days a year is Alberta's biggest problem

I see more dead moose in Albertas ditches then what a person who lives in a city would see .From 1992 to 2008 over 20000 animals hit .
85% deer
11% moose
2% wolfs bears etc. Over 16 years not including railways or ones caught in fence lines which I seen 2 in a half mile ..over 35 thousand from vechiles alone seems like a substantial amount . Don't forget to add that to your Albertas biggest problems. Might help to the finger pointing .

[R3illy]

ontario and bc both have crazy data on moose numbers.
. of which points to a bunch of factors as a cause for decline..

Ontarios numbers actually show a major increase over many years.

Peoples perceptions on things are way out of touch in regards to the numbers collected by our other provinces.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by R3illy

ontario and bc both have crazy data on moose numbers.
. of which points to a bunch of factors as a cause for decline..

Ontarios numbers actually show a major increase over many years.

Peoples perceptions on things are way out of touch in regards to the numbers collected by our other provinces.

Where are you getting your data? This say's otherwise.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunde...port-1.3823669

[greywolf]

If Alberta placed a complete moratorium on Moose hunting on all crown land, for lets say 10 years, do you really think there would be more moose in 10 years time. I doubt it. Look at how much of a reduction in tag allocation there has been, for example the eastern slopes of the rockies in the last 20+ years, and there are still fewer moose today. Look at some of the northern remote areas of Alberta where access is nearly impossible, where have all the moose gone. I don't think hunting is a major factor in the population loss.

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

Yes it would be a challenge. But you have to start somewhere. I don't think building an app would require a whole lot of effort. It's just data entry. I'd be willing to see licensing costs go up a buck or two for the next two or three years to pay for the development of that program. I have a Ziploc bag full of tags and licenses that I can't stand packing around. And you kill two birds as the electronic tag system would become your mandatory data collection vehicle....

I agree its the making mandatory part and the enforcement that like everything else I think will fall apart.

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by greywolf

If Alberta placed a complete moratorium on Moose hunting on all crown land, for lets say 10 years, do you really think there would be more moose in 10 years time. I doubt it. Look at how much of a reduction in tag allocation there has been, for example the eastern slopes of the rockies in the last 20+ years, and there are still fewer moose today. Look at some of the northern remote areas of Alberta where access is nearly impossible, where have all the moose gone. I don't think hunting is a major factor in the population loss.

LMAO If Alberta placed a complete moratorium on Caribou oh wait a mintute

according to their bs surveys even trying to wipe out the moose in 353 for the last decade they are higher in population now(I don't buy it but there is no doubt still moose there)

[R3illy]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Where are you getting your data? This say's otherwise.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunde...port-1.3823669

Partial typo. I posted a link with the data where ontario showed very large gains over a decade or so.. only for a decline over the last few years...

From lows of 80k to a high of 115k or so back down to around 93k.

Im just curious about specific numbers for alberta. There is a lot of whining over one factor but its clear from places that actually track with data that there is a multitude of problems causing declines in their area.

[greywolf]

Originally Posted by RockyMountainMusic

LMAO If Alberta placed a complete moratorium on Caribou oh wait a mintute

according to their bs surveys even trying to wipe out the moose in 353 for the last decade they are higher in population now(I don't buy it but there is no doubt still moose there)

and why is this?

[sparky660]

In my own part of the world where I have hunted all my life it was rare to see a moose 20 years ago. Now it's rare not to see one or two a day during hunting season. Far from scientific but to me it seems like they're population is growing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[North Beaver]

Sad to see it get so bad before something is done

[super7mag]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

I agree with that 100%. Mandatory submission will not change the dishonesty factor though. Or perhaps it can be a legally binding document? It's hard to close the loopholes with something like that. And yes the first Nations should have to register their kills as well. Especially if this is about stewardship. I fully believe that the first nations would be on board with conservation if we could collect the data properly

I think the dishonesty is on the side of the government and bureaucrats, if they want more genuine participation in game surveys why can't they be forth right with what they he numbers mean and how are they used? But that will never happen because the dishonesty , the slight of hand, and mismanagement of just about every species in AB is in their control and don't kid ourselves we are not all that relevant, they humour most of the hunting groups but input at best is minimal .
On a side note I personally know at least 5 older hunters that don't even own a cell phone never mind a smart phone it's a tad overzealous to believe they would , could or should register all harvests.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by sparky660

In my own part of the world where I have hunted all my life it was rare to see a moose 20 years ago. Now it's rare not to see one or two a day during hunting season. Far from scientific but to me it seems like they're population is growing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

See comments above. Farmland yes, bush no

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by super7mag

I think the dishonesty is on the side of the government and bureaucrats, if they want more genuine participation in game surveys why can't they be forth right with what they he numbers mean and how are they used? But that will never happen because the dishonesty , the slight of hand, and mismanagement of just about every species in AB is in their control and don't kid ourselves we are not all that relevant, they humour most of the hunting groups but input at best is minimal .
On a side note I personally know at least 5 older hunters that don't even own a cell phone never mind a smart phone it's a tad overzealous to believe they would , could or should register all harvests.

I agree with the transparency issue and have previously stated my concerns about that.
The E tags could be grandfathered in at the very least. Gotta start somewhere. We all know that will be implemented sooner or later. Paper tags will go the way of Blockbuster video, newspaper and asking chicks out in person....

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

i agree with the transparency issue and have previously stated my concerns about that.
The e tags could be grandfathered in at the very least. Gotta start somewhere. We all know that will be implemented sooner or later. Paper tags will go the way of blockbuster video, newspaper and asking chicks out in person....

what the hell is that?????????????????

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

what the hell is that?????????????????

Just remember when you create your online profile to not use your AO handle. I googled someones "name" once and their POF profile popped up. How embarrassing for the lonely little guy


Ahhhhhhh I digress

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

Just remember when you create your online profile to not use your AO handle. I googled someones "name" once and their POF profile popped up. How embarrassing for the lonely little guy


Ahhhhhhh I digress

That is quite funny. I now need to start googling profiles....

[Tfng]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

That is quite funny. I now need to start googling profiles....

I googled yours, not good lol. (Someone else I assume though)

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

That is quite funny. I now need to start googling profiles....

Reminds me of the one time....

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...ghlight=Google

LC

[drake]

Originally Posted by chugg

I see more dead moose in Albertas ditches then what a person who lives in a city would see .From 1992 to 2008 over 20000 animals hit .
85% deer
11% moose
2% wolfs bears etc. Over 16 years not including railways or ones caught in fence lines which I seen 2 in a half mile ..over 35 thousand from vechiles alone seems like a substantial amount . Don't forget to add that to your Albertas biggest problems. Might help to the finger pointing .

Great facts...but your point is what?.....are you saying based on those stats, unregulated harvest by in province and out of province "subsidence hunters" isn't a problem?

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by greywolf

and why is this?

I'm agreeing with what you wrote, just comparing it to the BS caribou recovery!

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by drake

Great facts...but your point is what?.....are you saying based on those stats, unregulated harvest by in province and out of province "subsidence hunters" isn't a problem?

They might be correct stats, but "in Alberta" is a big area, it doesn't explain why the moose population is doing good in the prairie zones where there is WAY more traffic than in the boreal zones.

[Ronji]

My personal opinion is that nobody trophy hunts for moose like they do with deer. A large segment of the population will let a small buck or bull elk walk and hold out for a big mature one. But nobody, I know how hunts of has hunted moose will always shoot the first bull or cow they see. The attitude I have seen first hand is.... I better take the first moose I see, big or small, to get one "in the freezer" Cause everybody knows, its getting tougher to see one at the best of times.
As for the attitude that the FN are over-harvesting? Total BS in my mind. They go home skunked a lot as well.

My 2 cents

[bmac]

one more thing that I think has affected moose populations is the spraying of cutblocks.After they plant the spruce and pines ,they spray a herbicide that kills the willows and poplars.and what do moose eat?
even the spray itself.once they spray a block there is no life,no birds,no squirrels.nothing.i realize that the chopper will scare most animals away,but they should come back.
northern alberta has thousands of square miles of once good habitat that is now dead until things grow back.