Punishing a dog "retroactively"

[stuckincity]

I know it doesn't work good because even after a few minutes a dog doesn't know WHY its being punished.

When I do catch a dog in the act of being "bad" it gets its snout shoved into the offending area and told "NO!"

Just recently one or the other started digging holes in the garden box; and one or the other started going through the garbage can in the kitchen and making a mess. They won't do either if I'm around, but I can't watch 'em "all the time". I can't see 'em suddenly being "bored" because they get plenty of attention, and never did that sort of thing since they were little pups.

I'm kinda at a loss. Do I punish all 3 when I find the "damage", or do I waste time hiding till I see one of 'em do it? Any other options?

[Nova]

IMO a person's energy is best spent on prevention. Block access to the digging areas, buy a garbage can with a locking lid. Make sure they get lots of exercise and find ways to occupy their mind while you are away. Something as simple as frozen kongs to work on can make a big difference. Mine gets one every day when I go to work.

[rottie]

You really should try to catch them in the act,as you said,after the fact they really arent sure why they are in trouble.
Has their activity level changed or have they been receiving less attention than they are used to getting ? Sometimes when we get busy our pets act out,just like kids,looking for attention.

Just a thought

[Redfrog]

You are going backwards unless you catch them in the act.

Remove the temptation and watch the diggers. I like a collar to correct the digging.

[Alberta Bigbore]

trail cams, lol

[Rusty P. Bucket]

Yes, you can punish a dog retroactively, anyone that says otherwise either has a retard for a dog or they know nothing about them. Dogs are a helluva lot smarter than people give them credit for - and they regularly play people for the fools they are.

I have two dogs, both from the SPCA that were put in there by previous owners that said they were "uncontrollable". Both are now clean city dogs; and the older one walks without a leash and is so well behaved that other dog owners have tried to pay me to train theirs.

You can't talk reason into dogs - they will fight you all the way until they establish their position in 'the pack' or your family. You are being tested.

Find out who the offender is, put his nose in it, and tan his bloody hide. Rinse and repeat until he decides that you are the alpha and not to be trifled with. Dummies will say that's mean; but they don't understand that once the dog has his place figured out and knows his commands you won't have to beat him at all ever again. Always punish bad behaviour, reward good behaviour from time to time and you will be surprised at what they can do.

[Sporty]

Originally Posted by Rusty P. Bucket

other dog owners have tried to pay me to train theirs.

Can't imagine many people would be willing to pay someone to beat their dogs for them, beating isn't training.

[stuckincity]

Originally Posted by Rusty P. Bucket

Yes, you can punish a dog retroactively, anyone that says otherwise either has a retard for a dog or they know nothing about them. Dogs are a helluva lot smarter than people give them credit for - and they regularly play people for the fools they are....
....You can't talk reason into dogs - they will fight you all the way until they establish their position in 'the pack' or your family. You are being tested....

....Rinse and repeat until he decides that you are the alpha and not to be trifled with. Dummies will say that's mean; but they don't understand that once the dog has his place figured out and knows his commands you won't have to beat him at all ever again.

They KNOW who the pack leader is!
Hint: it ain't one of the dogs.
And my wife is the "alpha female".

You're probably right about them being smarter than we think. When I see a hole and yell, "WHO'S DIGGING?!?" one of 'em looks "guilty" or something. If only I could be sure.....
Hey rottie, the only changes are that my wife just got home from knee replacement surgery, which makes me the "servant", so she gets a lot more of my attention than usual. That doesn't mean either of us neglect or ignore the dogs. We just don't let 'em climb on the bed anymore so they don't bump her leg.

Maybe that's it.....?

I guess we'll see, but I still gotta "catch 'em in the act".

[Hotwheels81]

Garbage is a hard one to break a dog of...

The shop I work in has an albino Shepard that routinely tossed our garbage cans in the shop when he was locked in over night... He knew it was against the rules, the look of shame, cowering in a corner when we walked thru the door... Even with a full food dish he still preferred to eat scraps then kibble...

It took some effort and discipline but he came around.


My suggestion is a ball of pure sea salt hidden in something irresistible...

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by stuckincity

They KNOW who the pack leader is!
Hint: it ain't one of the dogs.
And my wife is the "alpha female".

You're probably right about them being smarter than we think. When I see a hole and yell, "WHO'S DIGGING?!?" one of 'em looks "guilty" or something. If only I could be sure.....
Hey rottie, the only changes are that my wife just got home from knee replacement surgery, which makes me the "servant", so she gets a lot more of my attention than usual. That doesn't mean either of us neglect or ignore the dogs. We just don't let 'em climb on the bed anymore so they don't bump her leg.

Maybe that's it.....?

I guess we'll see, but I still gotta "catch 'em in the act".

Maybe, maybe not.

If they know you two are the alphas, just a sidelong look from you will make them feel .... sad? ashamed that they let you down? .....that they are risking their place in the pack?

My dogs act guilty when they've done something wrong, and when I give them "that look", they worm over to me all supplicant and stuff, begging forgiveness and attention. Especially when I look at what they got into, and then directly into their eyes. (even if they were in the garbage hours earlier)

Depends on your relationship with your dogs, I guess.

Good luck.

[Elkhunt]

All of the above comments IMO are relevant. Prevention of opportunity is more than half the solution. On the punishment side, you need to catch them in the act for the most part.

I say for the most part because I believe dogs do know when they have done something wrong. Especially when it is the 2nd or 3rd time you are disciplining them for the wrong doing. Just watch the guilty dog behavior when you point to the evidence of their behavior. You don't have to say anything, just point & watch your dog's reaction... it will be immediate submissiveness without you doing anything if you have disciplined them before for such behavior.

Also on the punishment side, I would add that I would use dominate alpha dog behaviour by grabbing the scruff of the neck & lifting the dog's front paws off the ground & giving it a shake or two. Or whatever number of shakes are appropriate for the dog to become submissive to you as the alpha dog. You can say loudly the word "NO" or whatever you want to show your displeasure. Just remember to always use the same words & behavior to express your displeasure.

Alternatively, if the dog is too heavy to lift, I would lay the dog on its back & grab the loose fur at the front of the throat & give it the shakes till it becomes submissive.

To add dominance to your repertoire of alpha behaviour consider using water in the face of the dog with the appropriate take down & shaking disciplinary action. A spritz bottle will do the trick, but a glass of water is the same. LOL use your imagination as to what this represents to a dog.

One has to remember to temper the harshness of the discipline to the dominance temperament of the individual dog. Too harsh a discipline of a soft temperament dog will lead to submissive peeing. Where as too soft a discipline of a dominant dog will lead to challenges of you as the alpha. Neither are pleasant consequences.

[Nova]

One other thing I've read of people doing to curb digging in gardens is to build their dogs a sand box and teach them to do their digging there with positive reinforcement.

Very few dog trainers/behaviorists belive in or subscribe to the idea of "alpha training" now. Counter conditioning and positive reinforcement methods work far better to mold your dog without creating any fear, uncertainty or frustration for the dog. Retroactive punishment....they may at some point catch on to what they've done. They may also come to think "my people are here - time for a beating, better go hide".

[thumper]

"Yes, you can punish a dog retroactively, anyone that says otherwise either has a retard for a dog or they know nothing about them."

Gee Rusty. I say otherwise. All these decades with some non-retarded dogs so I guess I 'know nothing about them'. Thanks for pointing that out, I'm such an idiot.

[wwbirds]

Is a lot like most government "feel good" programs it makes the population think they are doing something when in fact nothing is being accomplished.
Catch them in the act or wait for next time.
Most modern trainers accept that punishment training is not nearly as effective as escape avoidance training.
But then again a lot of us are just dummies!

[Gust]

This should help you really well;

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/4e7...-dog-from-nino

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Nova

One other thing I've read of people doing to curb digging in gardens is to build their dogs a sand box and teach them to do their digging there with positive reinforcement.

Very few dog trainers/behaviorists belive in or subscribe to the idea of "alpha training" now. Counter conditioning and positive reinforcement methods work far better to mold your dog without creating any fear, uncertainty or frustration for the dog. Retroactive punishment....they may at some point catch on to what they've done. They may also come to think "my people are here - time for a beating, better go hide".

It is no wonder I see so many people with out of control dogs.

Do you give them the "positive reinforcement" garbage can as well?

How about the "positive reinforcement" porcupine or toddler with an ice cream cone?

Hunting dogs encounter situations where a second thought may cost them their life. It maybe a group of coyotes, deer, cows or even heading for the highway or a barbed-wire fence. These are not trained for or encountered on a daily basis.

When a handler says "whoa" it means "whoa right now" and not because you are going to get a cookie.

The problem with 100% reward "positive reinforcement training" is that there may be a reward that the dog feels is more appealing, be it a garbage can full of scraps or an other dog to play with across a busy high-way.

As a learning tool there is nothing better than a treat. Once the dog knows what you want he obeys or pays a consequence. The consequence should be appropriate for the individual personality of the dog. Some need only a finger point and a harsh word, others need a shock collar.

[SBE2]

Originally Posted by MK2750

It is no wonder I see so many people with out of control dogs.

Do you give them the "positive reinforcement" garbage can as well?

How about the "positive reinforcement" porcupine or toddler with an ice cream cone?

Hunting dogs encounter situations where a second thought may cost them their life. It maybe a group of coyotes, deer, cows or even heading for the highway or a barbed-wire fence. These are not trained for or encountered on a daily basis.

When a handler says "whoa" it means "whoa right now" and not because you are going to get a cookie.

The problem with 100% reward "positive reinforcement training" is that there may be a reward that the dog feels is more appealing, be it a garbage can full of scraps or an other dog to play with across a busy high-way.

As a learning tool there is nothing better than a treat. Once the dog knows what you want he obeys or pays a consequence. The consequence should be appropriate for the individual personality of the dog. Some need only a finger point and a harsh word, others need a shock collar.

^^^^ x100, exactly. Rusty, your comments are rather surprising and insulting to a lot of long time dog trainers on here. I'm sure your SPCA dogs are far more "retared" , in your words, than that majority of accomplished hunting and trialing dogs. Leaving in fear of the suprise beating they have come to expect but not know what for, sounds like a great program. I have no problem with leaning on a dog for behaviour it already knows but does not do, e.g. shock collar, healing stick, foot, whatever it takes, but I really think, as well as a few pros I have trained with, that you have a few seconds to effectively correct them after the infraction, after that it's a lost cause or will lead to more confussion. But, to each their own....my 2 cents.

[Apocalypse_now]

your dogs are bored... that is all. boredom leads to poor behaviour. the whole "idle hands" thing. do you own a treadmill? it took me one hotdog, an my dog was running on our treadmill with no leash. he does 40 minutes a day, and loves it. give it a shot. and grabbing your dog and rubbing its face in the floor just makes them afraid and nervous around you.a quick clap, snap of the fingers should snap them out of whatever they were doing. thats all you need

my 2 bits