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  #121  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:07 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bushrat View Post
How do you explain our SR benchrest loads with softer thinner federal primer cups not exhibiting these signs when 99% of SR benchrest shooters use loads that generate anywhere from 65,000 to 75,000+ psi far above SAAMI recommended book loads yet display none of these conventional signs of over pressure on brass, primer or present sticky bolt lift.

It is well known that judging pressure by brass appearance, primer appearance, bolt stickiness etc., is often akin to reading tea leaves. While it is an indicator to investigate the reason why this is happening it does not always reflect actual pressures or necessarily mean the load is over pressure. It is well known overpressure loads may display none of these indicators leading people to believe their load is safe when it isn't and conversely leading some to believe their load is overpressure when it isn't as illustrated in 260 Rems pictures.
Again I was referring to 222/223 Saami Cartridges and My 20 Wildcats built on these cases with Factory specked actions. I have reformed at least a dozen 222/223 cases, both new and fired 1X to my 20 EXTREME and 20-223 EXTREME. Actually none of the 1X fired 223 Cases exhibited any primer flow nor were they even close to being fire formed to a Saami chamber at the PR, or Base datum, indicating that they were likely well within the Saami Pressure for the 223. Primer flow may have been controlled due to a heavier firing pin in an AR so that may not be accurate in a bolt gun. However every case showed primer flow when pushing a 40 V-Max to over 3600 fps in my 20-223 CZ 527 just as they did at a similar velocity in my 20 EXTREME. None of the Cases completely fireformed to a Saami Minimum 223 chamber at the base datum. Hornady 204R Factory ammo has up to 0.004" primer flow in both 32 &40 grain offerings so I feel safe stopping at 0.002 or 0.003" protrusion. I can assure you that measuring Primers is very accurate in this situation and what I pictured is exactly as described not what someone else sees.

As far as I know the 6mm PPC that BR Shooters is not a Saami Specked cartridge. I have no experience with this cartridge but will suggest that the firing pin spring is strong enough to withstand the pressures exerted , as is the primer and case. I might ask how many firings that they get on a case but am not really that concerned about what the BR Crowd.

Elkhunter 11 accused me of suggesting that he loaded to where the bolt seizes, which again was not true if you read my post, as it is actually a quote from a notable BR Shooter. I really hope that this practice is not picked up by new loaders just as I do the "Safe in my rifle Practice".
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  #122  
Old 11-20-2017, 08:10 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Not sure what being a sammi specked cartridge has to do with it but here you go
Case is a lapua 220 Russian , fireformed to a 6 ppc
Primer is fed match 205 (thin cup) and on occasion a cci (thicker cup)
Current brass I brought home from competition had approx 700 firings on 20 pieces of brass, so average of 35 firings ,all well over the book max load
No primer flow , no blown or flat/deformed primers , no loose pockets , no split necks and no “base datem expansion” , the brass doesn’t click on opening and I never had any hard bolt lift, Have had brass go over a 100 firings in testing ,
Again I can not speak for long range load development as it’s a different animal but, as you went after a 6 ppc a short range cartridge I will respond
Your load development as it pertains to short range (that would be 0-300 yards) is very flawed,
You have made it clear that you dislike competition and can’t understand the mentality of it however , everything, wether it’s guns ,cars ,boats , planes or technology , ultimately competition proves out the best theories and systems,
All we want to do is see how our theories and practices stack up against the best their is I’m not sure why you think that’s a bad thing
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  #123  
Old 11-21-2017, 03:01 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Not sure what being a sammi specked cartridge has to do with it but here you go
Case is a lapua 220 Russian , fireformed to a 6 ppc
Primer is fed match 205 (thin cup) and on occasion a cci (thicker cup)
Current brass I brought home from competition had approx 700 firings on 20 pieces of brass, so average of 35 firings ,all well over the book max load
No primer flow , no blown or flat/deformed primers , no loose pockets , no split necks and no “base datem expansion” , the brass doesn’t click on opening and I never had any hard bolt lift, Have had brass go over a 100 firings in testing ,
Again I can not speak for long range load development as it’s a different animal but, as you went after a 6 ppc a short range cartridge I will respond
Your load development as it pertains to short range (that would be 0-300 yards) is very flawed,
You have made it clear that you dislike competition and can’t understand the mentality of it however , everything, wether it’s guns ,cars ,boats , planes or technology , ultimately competition proves out the best theories and systems,
All we want to do is see how our theories and practices stack up against the best their is I’m not sure why you think that’s a bad thing
For the record I did not "Go after a 6mm PPC" as you suggest at all. It was Bushrat that brought it up in reference to Saami Specs. The 6mmPPC is not a Saami Specked cartridge but Bushrat had this to say. 99% of SR benchrest shooters use loads that generate anywhere from 65,000 to 75,000+ psi far above SAAMI recommended book loads "
However CIP do list a Max Pressure of 4050 BAR or 58,740 PSI and a Mean Proof Pressure of 5060 BAR or 73,398 PSI. Hodgdons manual shows a Compressed load of 29.5 grains 8208 pushing a 65 V-Max to 3253 fps generating 50,600 CUP or about 58,800 PSI. Perhaps the answer to his questions can be answered by that as pressures generated are likely no where near as high as he suspects unless they have been proven in a pressure barrel??

Likely the best Chamber drawing to use, as there is no Saami drawing, is the Speedy-Boyer #3 shown in the linked article http://www.6mmbr.com/6ppc.html.
As near as I can tell the base of a new Lapua 222 Russian case measures 0.4380". Speedy's drawing indicates 0.4395" at the 0.200" base datum which means that the new case Base Datum Is "Expanded" by about 0.0015 if fireformed to the chamber. However I expect the brass would spring back from the Chamber by about 0.0005" leaving a Base Datum, or PR, measurement of 0.439".

You make the statement "Your load development as it pertains to short range (that would be 0-300 yards) is very flawed", in spite of the fact that I have posted numerous "Good Safe Loads", that shoot Sub 1/2 MOA to 300 + Meters in every varmint rifle that they have been tested in.
You also make reference to things that I post like, "That Is Not What I See", when I have clearly explained what I posted. It is not competition that I dislike but the fact that it seems to spawn so many people with the Mentality that you display.

Take note of shots 6, 7 & 8 on this H 322 Ladder with a 40 V-Max:
[IMG][/IMG]
Note on this chart how stable the load became after a pressure (velocity) spike between shot 4 & 5 and continued at around 3510 fps till a pressure spike between shots 8 & 9. also not how base expansion had begun to clime as did primer protrusion (flow) into the firing pin hole.
[IMG][/IMG] Tested shots 7, 8 &9 at 100 yards:
[IMG][/IMG]

Did this ladder with AA 2015 and the 40 V-Max and primer protrusion (0.0025"), Base Datum Expansion and a 99% case fill told me that this was a "Good safe Load in the 20 EXTREME LB.
[IMG][/IMG]

I shot these two loads in my new 20 EXTREME Benchmark barrel this summer and the H 322 load clocked 3509 fps and shot even better than from the 20 EXTREME LB with Kreiger Barrel?? The AA 2015 load was right on target at 3541 as well.
[IMG][/IMG]

These loads were shot with newly formed Winchester brass, with no fine tuning, in my CZ 527 Varmint Kevlar with factory action and stock, from the bipod. Brass will likely go 10 rounds without trimming and quite a few more after that even without annealing. Now what do you find that is "Very Flawed" with my load development?

Last edited by lclund1946; 11-21-2017 at 03:09 PM.
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  #124  
Old 11-21-2017, 04:28 PM
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I have followed this thread from the beginning. I must say that I find it interesting that one contributor seemingly refuses to be open to anything that nationally ranked shooters have to say about load development.

I also find it interesting that in all the many images posted, there always seem to be "fowlers" and "sighters". Hmmm.

Finally, drawings don't impress me. Results do. I think I know whose posts I am gleaning info from.

Justsayin...
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  #125  
Old 11-21-2017, 06:28 PM
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From a few manuals:
Noslers max load with H322 for a 70 grain bullet is 25.5 gr at 2900fps. A powder not used for the 6PPC much these days but commonly loaded too about 30 gr. for benchrest for velocities around 3300 fps.
Lee Manual max load for 65 gr bullet is 28.1 N133 for a velocity of 3113, commonly loaded to 32 gr up to 3400-3500fps.
Hornady manual lists 23.7 gr. N133 with a 65 gr bullet at about 2900 fps. This is well below what would be considered a starting load for any 65 gr. benchrest bullet.
Sierra lists 25.4 N133 with a 70 gr bullet at 2900 fps. Anemic at best for benchrest purposes.
Nobody uses any of these bullets for SR benchrest as they are too inconsistent in weight and shape but these loads do serve to show how much more over manual max loads competitive shooters operate at. though they are very similar and constructed the same as bullets used in benchrest they just come off different dies and you might have bullets from any number of dies in a single box of bullets that for general shooting purposes are fine but benchrest demands consistent and each bullet in the box identical and made from the same die.


Most 6PPC loads are loaded 20-25% more powder over most book maximums and chronographed velocities commonly used in competition with the 6PPC run3300-3500 fps with 62 - 68 gr. bullets commonly used. Also the majority of competitors seat bullets jammed into the lands. All this increases pressures. What the actual pressure are in your or my gun will vary but some of these loads have pressure tested well over 70,000 psi. Good brass, proper neck turning, fire forming, judicious case sizing is critical in these tight chambers but rarely do they show pressure signs on brass and it lasts many many reloadings without necks growing, loose primer pockets or extruded primers in a well constructed gun. I have brass that has over 40 firings with loads far beyond any manuals maximum loads and still going strong.


It is becoming more apparent that most commonly known pressures signs, re brass deformation, ejector marks on brass, deformed primers don't generally begin to show until about 70,000 psi. New reloading manuals reflect this, many old maximum loads have been reviewed and reduced when new manuals replace old. Piezoelectric pressure testing for PSI has become the standard and new manuals reflect this in many reduced loads from what older manuals said were safe based on traditional brass deformation pressure signs and often unreliable CUP methods of pressure reading.

Guess I'm trying to illustrate that pressure signs on brass and primer cups can be unreliable and loads generating overly high pressure can show no signs at all and vice versa. Part of the problem is there seems to be no standard of how hard or soft brass or primer cups should be or at least the window between hard and soft appears to be very large, also varies from lot to lot from the same manufacturer consequently false readings often result.

Last edited by Bushrat; 11-21-2017 at 06:40 PM.
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  #126  
Old 11-21-2017, 06:33 PM
gtr gtr is offline
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Originally Posted by sns2 View Post
I have followed this thread from the beginning. I must say that I find it interesting that one contributor seemingly refuses to be open to anything that nationally ranked shooters have to say about load development.

I also find it interesting that in all the many images posted, there always seem to be "fowlers" and "sighters". Hmmm.

Finally, drawings don't impress me. Results do. I think I know whose posts I am gleaning info from.

Justsayin...
More often than not a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Just saying......
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  #127  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:18 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2 View Post
I have followed this thread from the beginning. I must say that I find it interesting that one contributor seemingly refuses to be open to anything that nationally ranked shooters have to say about load development.

I also find it interesting that in all the many images posted, there always seem to be "fowlers" and "sighters". Hmmm.

Finally, drawings don't impress me. Results do. I think I know whose posts I am gleaning info from.

Justsayin...
I think I know who you are referring to by this comment, "I must say that I find it interesting that one contributor seemingly refuses to be open to anything that nationally ranked shooters have to say about load development."
I find that rather amusing as I have seen nothing about what these people do differently than I, with my Varmint rifle, only that what I am doing is very flawed with no explanation. Could that be partly due to the fact that the loads used in competition have been developed for their particular cartridge by someone else quite some time ago?
These loads were developed by me for this one cartridge and compiled a few years back. I have likely that many more to add that shoot sub 1/2 MOA. See if you can glean any info from that.
[IMG][/IMG]

As far as your ridiculous comment about 'fowlers" and "sighters" I guess you don't know that they are quite different from "fliers". I suppose you are trying to draw attention away from the 5 shot, 1/3MOA, groups for whatever reason. This has been discussed before and I have explained my position, as you surly have noticed, but I will explain it again. I do not have the luxury of changing a lot of targets as I am dependent on my wife or good friends to do that. I am not in competition so shooting a fowler or sighter, on a target on which I plan to use the sighters as targets, is OK by my rules. Oh! BTW the grey circles above the red diamonds are intended for sighters.

I really expected more from someone who I believe is billed as a Moderator on this forum but then I am certainly not surprised. Justsayin......

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
This drawing shows that the 40 grain Berger is not a great fit but it did help me find a load that shoots quite good in spite of the 0.075" jump to the lands. My drawings also tell me that it is impossible to get to the lands, with this bullet, in a 20 VT, 20 tac or 204R but it reached the lands in my 20 Practical.
[IMG][/IMG]
This drawing is title 40 V-max but is the 40 Berger:
[IMG][/IMG]
The 55 Berger fit much better, to the lands but would not fit in a Saami magazine , although that was not a concern in the Single shot Savage.
The drawing helped to find the Max Safe Potential of the 20 Practical which is Practically the same as the 20 EXTREME, with these components, only not as efficient
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
Notice I did shoot the cold bore shot on a separate target as I had a spare.
[IMG][/IMG]
My drawings also have helped me to develop Good loads for many other cartridges, of which I have many, like this one for a 223.
[IMG][/IMG]

I could go on for days but hopefully you have the message by now and will refrain from making posts that add nothing to the thread in the future. If you have something intelligent to add I will certainly be open to learn from it.
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  #128  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:41 AM
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Nope. Said all I need to say. Stick by it all too

Don't worry about sharing your feelings. I have my big boy pants on. When I post on a thread I do so as a participant. Stay within the rules and you can comment on the gist of my post to your heart's content.

I know the difference between foulers, fliers, and sighters. If you want to be taken more seriously, I'd suggest you not post targets in an accuracy thread that have any of the above. Most won't take it seriously with any other holes on the target than those in your group. I'd also suggest that most check out when they see your drawings and such.

Last edited by sns2; 11-22-2017 at 11:56 AM.
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  #129  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:00 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Attachment 139918
This is a typical grid I shoot with a new barrel ,bullet or powder , from the top down I move seating depth .002 and the powder load is a 1.2 grain spread from coloum A-C ,fouling shots are on the right between cleaning , all groups are 3 shots on the grid
Row 6 are some 5 shot groups to check and confirm what we find in the grid
So about 50 to 100 rounds and your done ,barrel is broke you have seating depth ,and a powder load window , that can then be adjusted for the time of day and conditions
This is a system as described in Tony Boyer’s book, it is about the shortest and best way I have seen to find out what a combination is capable of,
When I shoot it I do not hold for the wind as I am trying to find the most forgiving load/seating depth ,
Most groups regardless of powder charge should form up in the same place unless there is a major wind shift while testing , this is just one way of doing short range load development, not the only way ,
There are many problems with iclunds method as I see it for short range ,but this is just my opinion , only way to really solve it would be to register at a match and see what wins ,
There’s that darn competition thing again !
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  #130  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:04 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Easy for the target crew too!
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  #131  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:23 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Attachment 139918
This is a typical grid I shoot with a new barrel ,bullet or powder , from the top down I move seating depth .002 and the powder load is a 1.2 grain spread from coloum A-C ,fouling shots are on the right between cleaning , all groups are 3 shots on the grid
Row 6 are some 5 shot groups to check and confirm what we find in the grid
So about 50 to 100 rounds and your done ,barrel is broke you have seating depth ,and a powder load window , that can then be adjusted for the time of day and conditions
This is a system as described in Tony Boyer’s book, it is about the shortest and best way I have seen to find out what a combination is capable of,
When I shoot it I do not hold for the wind as I am trying to find the most forgiving load/seating depth ,
Most groups regardless of powder charge should form up in the same place unless there is a major wind shift while testing , this is just one way of doing short range load development, not the only way ,
There are many problems with iclunds method as I see it for short range ,but this is just my opinion , only way to really solve it would be to register at a match and see what wins ,
There’s that darn competition thing again !
Don't worry you will likely never face me or my Varmint gun in BR Competition.
It is interesting to see how you tune your load to a new rifle and something I would love to learn if I was fine tuning a load for a match. However what I have been describing is how to use a Pressure Ladder to Develop a good Safe Load using many combinations of powder, brass and bullets in rifles that the majority of us use. I have really done no fine tuning but Tony Boyer's method would work fine if I found that necessary. Thanks.
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  #132  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:45 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Don't worry you will likely never face me or my Varmint gun in BR Competition.
It is interesting to see how you tune your load to a new rifle and something I would love to learn if I was fine tuning a load for a match. However what I have been describing is how to use a Pressure Ladder to Develop a good Safe Load using many combinations of powder, brass and bullets in rifles that the majority of us use. I have really done no fine tuning but Tony Boyer's method would work fine if I found that necessary. Thanks.
I do my varmint rifles the same way with the same results.
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  #133  
Old 11-22-2017, 01:14 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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On your pressure ladder it appears that you have a spread of 1.5 grains
On my grid it’s 1.2 grains ,yours is a ladder but mine is “fine tuning “
How does that work ?
I guess it’s all perspective, we will have to agree to disagree on methods , how ever there are so many variables on your ladder that are not accounted for how can you be sure it’s a pressure spike causing the bullets to spray around also why do I not see it with my varmint stuff using Boyer’s method over almost the same spread ?
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  #134  
Old 11-22-2017, 01:25 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Nope. Said all I need to say. Stick by it all too

Don't worry about sharing your feelings. I have my big boy pants on. When I post on a thread I do so as a participant. Stay within the rules and you can comment on the gist of my post to your heart's content.

I know the difference between foulers, fliers, and sighters. If you want to be taken more seriously, I'd suggest you not post targets in an accuracy thread that have any of the above. Most won't take it seriously with any other holes on the target than those in your group. I'd also suggest that most check out when they see your drawings and such.
That's great. I really don't worry about whether or not people take me seriously as it is those that want to learn that I am reaching out to. I am actually happy to have the meaningless, condescending comments from the few as the ones who want to learn seldom comment. I can't say as I blame them, because you have to have a thick hide, but it sure would make for a better forum if they would. As far as my drawings and posts, are concerned, I get private comments from people who like them. I will not post what their comments are, about the few, as it would likely be against the rules.
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  #135  
Old 11-22-2017, 01:27 PM
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Good plan. That would be against forum rules.
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  #136  
Old 11-22-2017, 01:53 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I had the chance to try out my friends idea on finding the node,,, it seems to of worked.

Part way into the 4 loaded cartrages,,, of 5 in each batch...

The loads at .5 of a grain apart. I got thinking that I'm way over the recommended CUP/PSI specs,,, this can't be right.
Opened up the book and sure enough I was the smallest fraction from max pressure,,, Huuuuuuuummm.

Bling,,, on come the the light, not the light of a brain fart, the light of double checking the manufactor who makes the powder.
I'll be a horses goat,,, the published book allows for forgiveness.
If the manufactor has listed the powders higher,,, then I'm well with the allowance.

I'm into a safe node, just below max pressure,,, I'll fine tune it at a later date. I just got schooled.

Our oldtimer that comes to our range shot in the days when 49.000 PSI was alot of pressure.
By the time he reached National match the system changed.
60.192 PSI,,, this was crazy he said. Look at the NATO rounds of today.

This is his take.

"I'm not after maximum ft-per seconds in match Don, I have to compensate for elevation and wind drift anyways, a few extra clicks isn't going to make that much difference.
Finding that flat spot between the node is what gets it done.
Don't over compensate stuff.
If your body is more relaxed with a smooth comfortable shots, then what else could you ask for.

Sometimes more power is not the answer, perhaps it is in some cases.
The best judge to sort this out is the person them selves.
One extra thing I should mention well I'm at it Don.
Hot loads make heat, heat causes barrel burn, barrel burn wrecks accuracy. This was the way it was with the old steel iron barrels.
Today we have Stainless steel barrels, don't be fouled my friend.
They might last longer, but over time those hot gasses will eventually burn them out to."

I forgot about this conversation we had since I had lots on the go this summer, work, shooting, camping, pre season scouting, family, friends, cows, and other things.

Just a few days ago I stopped to sort more stuff out for my new rifle with my friend.
I was walking back to the front office when I spotted a plastic barrel full of rifle barrels.
One for sure stood out.
A Stainless steel barrel in mint condition,,, looking at it from the out side.
What's up with this pipe I asked.

"Its shot out, look at the lead."
Oldtimers words came full circle.
I just got schooled.

Any-who, the rifle pressure is safe with in its limits, the node is in a sweet spot for now, and I going to run with what is working for now.

I was told to shot and practic what was suggested.
Element the stuff that needs addressing.
Keep it the same.
If I'm successful, then the rest will become second nature.

Yes, the accurate load idea is still there, but it will come in due time.

Don
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  #137  
Old 11-22-2017, 03:10 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
On your pressure ladder it appears that you have a spread of 1.5 grains
On my grid it’s 1.2 grains ,yours is a ladder but mine is “fine tuning “
How does that work ?
I guess it’s all perspective, we will have to agree to disagree on methods , how ever there are so many variables on your ladder that are not accounted for how can you be sure it’s a pressure spike causing the bullets to spray around also why do I not see it with my varmint stuff using Boyer’s method over almost the same spread ?
I do not disagree with your method if it works for you that is fine. It does depend on what cartridge I do a pressure ladder for as to the increments that I use. On small capacity cartridges especially with smaller calibers, I prefer to use0 .1 grain increments as sometimes pressures can rise very quickly but I will start low, with larger increments, when starting with no pressure data available. Actually I have used spreads as low as 0.3, in 0.1 grain increments , for many loads especially if just changing bullets or bullet weights. I don't know what variables that you are referring to , in regards to my ladder, as the only thing I change from shot to shot is one small measured powder increment??
If I have a cartridge, powder, bullet combination that allows for a low pressure node and a higher pressure node with a full case, like 8208 and 39/40 grain bullets I will do a ladder in 10 or more increments looking for the nodes. Then I will do 5 shot groups, as I have shown, within those nodes to select the best load. Pressure spikes are confirmed by the chronograph velocity readings as it does take more pressure to push a bullet 30 + fps with a 0.1 grain increment. This also tells me that the brass is beginning to yield and the pressure can be measured by the Pressure Ring, or Base Datum, expansion as well. I believe that the pressure/increment drops off until the next brass yield point as it is also indicated by a pressure spike as indicted by primer flow, velocity or PR expansion. This is why I call it a Pressure ladder and what you are doing as Fine Tuning as I could do the same thing as you are doing within the Good Nodes to fine tune them. You are already working within a pressure range that is well known and have more than one node, likely at each increment that your powder thrower throws, as that is what Tony Boyer does?

The first cartridge case that I pictured earlier, or the one you referred to as a week load, was actually a new Winchester brass loaded with 21.4 grains of 8208 pushing the 39 BK to about 3500 fps which is my good light gopher load.
The Rem 7 1/2 primer showed no pressures signs at all although it would have likely blown if that bullet was pushed to that velocity in a 20 VT. It would have looked great in a 20 Tac or 204R but accuracy would likely not be great at that velocity. The New Winchester brass expanded about 0.0005" which left about 0.001" chamber clearance at the base datum. Upping the charge to a full charge of 22.4 grains, in the second case which you called a light load, actually pushed the 39 grain bullet to about 3650 fps, which is close to what a 20 Practical/tactical will do at about 60,000 PSI. The Rem 7 1/2 primer flows into the firing pin hole by about 0.0010" as shown in my resent post to sns2 and the base expansion was about 0.0010" leaving about 0.0005" chamber clearance. I really do not like to pressure my loads any more than that as I do begin to get some case stretch and may have to trim after 7 or 8 firings??

Last edited by lclund1946; 11-22-2017 at 03:38 PM.
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  #138  
Old 11-22-2017, 03:59 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Let me clear up some mis conceptions you seem to have ,I dont throw powder , I measure to the kernel , I don’t work within the nodes to fine tune them ,that is the node, wow did you ever miss the point, when I shoot the same grid in .1 increments the bullets still don’t leave the group as in your scenario and there is no primer flow or pr expansion all the way up to 29.6 which is well above the max pressure ,why would that be ?
As I said we will just have to agree to disagree,
Were you see primer flow , I see a fire control system and a die to chamber fit that could be so much better
Were you see good loads , I see groups with fliers and spit shots that should be worked on to bring them back in the group
I wish you good luck and good shooting in the gopher patch, I will continue on competing and learning
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  #139  
Old 11-24-2017, 06:45 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Let me clear up some mis conceptions you seem to have ,I dont throw powder , I measure to the kernel , I don’t work within the nodes to fine tune them ,that is the node, wow did you ever miss the point, when I shoot the same grid in .1 increments the bullets still don’t leave the group as in your scenario and there is no primer flow or pr expansion all the way up to 29.6 which is well above the max pressure ,why would that be ?
As I said we will just have to agree to disagree,
Were you see primer flow , I see a fire control system and a die to chamber fit that could be so much better
Were you see good loads , I see groups with fliers and spit shots that should be worked on to bring them back in the group
I wish you good luck and good shooting in the gopher patch, I will continue on competing and learning
OK I was guessing that you were using a powder thrower as that is apparently what Tony Boyer did. I did however suspect that you were working in a stable node as you are starting out with brass that is fire formed to your chamber and really has no more room to expand at the PR. Tony Boyer wrote that he determined max pressure for a given rifle by loading up in 1 click increments on his Culver Measure, which would be about 1/2 grain, until the 205 primer pierced then backed off 1 click and called that max pressure. Obviously he was running more pressure than what you are calling max or his actions would not take as much pressure at the firing pin than yours. What that pressure was is anybody's guess?? In any event the pressures were not enough to stretch the web enough to blow a primer and destroy the brass.

Again I am doing things entirely different as I am finding nodes where the brass first begins to yield and stop long before the brass is fire formed to the chamber. By this method I am running under or just over Saami Max pressure for the 223 cartridge, or about 58,000 PSI. I am running die to chamber tolerances of 0.001" at the PR, 0.001" at the shoulder and about 0.003" at the neck. I usually run 0.0000" bump or minus 0.005 to 0.001" HS on a sized case compared to one fire formed to my chamber. However I usually run about 0.001-0.015" HS, on newly formed brass when I do a pressure ladder, so I know when the pressure reaches that point where the brass fire forms.

And again you have no idea about what you claim to see and will never learn what I do in the Short Range BR game as it does not apply. But it surly applies when finding good safe loads in Saami specked rifles in the real world.

Just today I confirmed that a Lake City 08 5.56 Nato round and a Sako 50 grain 223 Rem Factory round did not expand any where near the Saami minimum chamber dimensions, at the PR in a CZ 527. The Sammi Minimum Chamber measures 0.3769" at the PR , the LC fired brass measured 0.3740" and the Sako brass 0.3745" so they had a long ways to go before being fireformed. However they were probably both running near Saami Max pressure with very flat primers but no primer flow. It would take a number of firings or a really hot load to form this brass to a Saami Max Chamber by neck sizing. In fact if I run it through my Hornady or RCBS FL die, properly set to not bump the shoulder, the base would not be sized, just as in my 20 EXTREME. I found the same with once fired Hornady, Remington, Federal and about 10 other factory brass as well. However that is going to be covered on another thread and you would do well to pay attention to if you want to learn. If you want to continue on, in blissful ignorance, please do not participate unless you actually have something intelligent to contribute.
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  #140  
Old 11-24-2017, 11:40 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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You are about 15 years behind what Boyer’s doing, so none of your info on that is relevant to this conversation ,
I’m pretty sure I do know what I’m looking at when I see primer flow from a rifle with a less than optimum fire control and components fit , I’m still curious as to why you would not want to make it better , you can still do what you do now but with none of the primer /brass issues , as I mentioned my factory Varmint rifles act just like my competition rifles , how could that be possible ? They don’t spit shots when increasing the load within the node , usually 1-2gr increases such as your pressure ladder and don’t show primer flow as I approach max loads either
If you would like to learn how to fire form and size brass properly there are a few good books that explain it quite well I would be happy to recommend one if you like , there is a much easier method than all the work your currently going through by the sounds of it.
You really should go to a competition of any kind , long range or short range if not to shoot then just go and talk to the competitors you would gain a lot of knowledge of what’s current , what works and what doesn’t , it could help get you up to speed and save you a lot of time , also may help you modify and improve your process.
Good luck
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  #141  
Old 11-25-2017, 07:55 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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You are about 15 years behind what Boyer’s doing, so none of your info on that is relevant to this conversation ,
I’m pretty sure I do know what I’m looking at when I see primer flow from a rifle with a less than optimum fire control and components fit , I’m still curious as to why you would not want to make it better , you can still do what you do now but with none of the primer /brass issues , as I mentioned my factory Varmint rifles act just like my competition rifles , how could that be possible ? They don’t spit shots when increasing the load within the node , usually 1-2gr increases such as your pressure ladder and don’t show primer flow as I approach max loads either
If you would like to learn how to fire form and size brass properly there are a few good books that explain it quite well I would be happy to recommend one if you like , there is a much easier method than all the work your currently going through by the sounds of it.
You really should go to a competition of any kind , long range or short range if not to shoot then just go and talk to the competitors you would gain a lot of knowledge of what’s current , what works and what doesn’t , it could help get you up to speed and save you a lot of time , also may help you modify and improve your process.
Good luck
The fact is that there are many different opinions on forming cases and developing loads, and the person that is open minded enough to consider multiple methods, is the person that will likely lean the most. However, some people don't want to learn, they prefer to condemn everyone else's methods, and everyone else's creations, in order to try and make theirs appear to be superior. But please continue to post on the topic, because some people really do want to learn.
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  #142  
Old 11-25-2017, 12:49 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The fact is that there are many different opinions on forming cases and developing loads, and the person that is open minded enough to consider multiple methods, is the person that will likely lean the most. However, some people don't want to learn, they prefer to condemn everyone else's methods, and everyone else's creations, in order to try and make theirs appear to be superior. But please continue to post on the topic, because some people really do want to learn.
I must have leaned quite a lot as I really do know how to fire form brass and use multiple methods of developing loads. In fact I have devised a method of forming brass, to new brass specification, everywhere except the neck to shoulder area with a set of custom dies. My reamers are specked to form a chamber fit of 0.001" at the base datum, 0,0015" at the shoulder and about 0.003" at the neck. As well the dies are cut such that expander balls or bushings are not required to get a 0.003" neck tension if the neck is turned to spec. If I want less neck tension I use an expander ball that expands the neck by 0.001" or turn the neck slightly below spec with out the expander. This method was created by me as was my method of using a Pressure Ladder which works very well when developing "Good Safe Loads" with a multitude of components.

I certainly have not condemned HW223's methods, none of them are his anyway and certainly nothing was created by him. However he seems to take every opportunity to try to make out like I know nothing as I do not go to competitions. He does not know a thing about what I am doing yet he tells me that my components are not up to spec and that my methods suck in spite of the fact that many of my loads shoot Sub 1/3 MOA from my varmint rifles without the benefit of Tony Boyer's fine tuning method. Does he have to be reminded that I am using a Stock CZ 527 without any modifications except for a chambered, or factory re-chambered barrel. Dies he have to be reminded that I shoot from a Bi-Pod if I can get my wheelchair up to a bench. Perhaps he can tell us how much he has invested in rifle, rests and scope? Maybe if I had those components to work with and a healthy body perhaps I would be shooting one hole groups? Is that what he is afraid of or does he have to run someone down just to make himself feel superior???

As for yourself you have never created anything and have been ****ed at me every since I warned people about the potentially dangerous load you posted in your beloved 20 Tactical. You choose to ignore pressure tested loads in the Ramshot Manual, showing RS X-Terminator getting the 39 BK to 3700 fps, but generating 63,000PSI. I tried to explain that your RL 10 X load would put out more pressure than RS X-Terminator, as I had extensive experience with both, and that your 3900 fps load would likely be unsafe on hot days under sustained fire. I offered you a chance to get together to compare your load to those in my 20 EXTREME and 20 Tactical over the same chronograph and comparing case measurements. Instead of taking me up on my offer you picked your personal attacks on me. You have never reported on how the 20 Tactical performed, with that load, on a hot day in the gopher patch. In fact you never seem to talk much about the beloved 20 Tac or the 20 Tactical at all. However you still try to make out that I claimed that your Cooper magazine would not hold your loaded round which was not true at all as I know it would. If you can find where I stated that please cut and paste it. However, like other things you claim I said about you, it is not true and you will have no luck proving it.

You claim that you know about Saami specs yet you continue to make claims that manufacturers alter Saami chambers. You really have no idea about FreeBore or Throat Dimensions otherwise you would know that the Kindler designs have the same throat dimensions as the 204R which was designed to run about 0.2000" jump to the lands with 0.001" FB as the overbore case required to be set up like a Wheatherby. Todd Kindler moved the shoulder back on a 223 R case and Shortened FB to just under 0.0050" FB in an attempt to get the 33 V-Max to fit. However it is still likely running close to 0.1000" off the lands when seated just into the neck. The 39/40 grain bullets seat further down into the neck but get no closer to the lands unless they are nearly falling out the neck. If they are seated to Saami Magagine length, of 2.26" OAL, the heavy bullets seat into case and now that Dakota Brass is not available anymore the Lapua 223 M brass is having donut problems and need s to be turned. Why is it that these bullets, including the 55 Berger, fit perfectly in in the neck of my 20 EXTREME and fit in a Saami magazine when seated to the lands or up to 0.050". off ??? Well if you had paid attention, instead of ridiculing me, you would have learned the answer to that. Perhaps you did and have come to the conclusion , as I, that my design is in fact superior but choose to ignore that and continue to try to undermine me.

I did not develop all of these loads but I know quite a lot more about these cartridges than you give me credit for. Try and pick out the superior loads as per fit to the lands and efficiency.

[QUOTE][IMG][/IMG][/QUOTE

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I have reached the picture limit but assure you that I have many more loads to post.
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  #143  
Old 11-25-2017, 01:43 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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[QUOTE=lclund1946;3675312]I must have leaned quite a lot as I really do know how to fire form brass and use multiple methods of developing loads. In fact I have devised a method of forming brass, to new brass specification, everywhere except the neck to shoulder area with a set of custom dies. My reamers are specked to form a chamber fit of 0.001" at the base datum, 0,0015" at the shoulder and about 0.003" at the neck. As well the dies are cut such that expander balls or bushings are not required to get a 0.003" neck tension if the neck is turned to spec. If I want less neck tension I use an expander ball that expands the neck by 0.001" or turn the neck slightly below spec with out the expander. This method was created by me as was my method of using a Pressure Ladder which works very well when developing "Good Safe Loads" with a multitude of components.

I certainly have not condemned HW223's methods, none of them are his anyway and certainly nothing was created by him. However he seems to take every opportunity to try to make out like I know nothing as I do not go to competitions. He does not know a thing about what I am doing yet he tells me that my components are not up to spec and that my methods suck in spite of the fact that many of my loads shoot Sub 1/3 MOA from my varmint rifles without the benefit of Tony Boyer's fine tuning method. Does he have to be reminded that I am using a Stock CZ 527 without any modifications except for a chambered, or factory re-chambered barrel. Dies he have to be reminded that I shoot from a Bi-Pod if I can get my wheelchair up to a bench. Perhaps he can tell us how much he has invested in rifle, rests and scope? Maybe if I had those components to work with and a healthy body perhaps I would be shooting one hole groups? Is that what he is afraid of or does he have to run someone down just to make himself feel superior???

As for yourself you have never created anything and have been ****ed at me every since I warned people about the potentially dangerous load you posted in your beloved 20 Tactical. You choose to ignore pressure tested loads in the Ramshot Manual, showing RS X-Terminator getting the 39 BK to 3700 fps, but generating 63,000PSI. I tried to explain that your RL 10 X load would put out more pressure than RS X-Terminator, as I had extensive experience with both, and that your 3900 fps load would likely be unsafe on hot days under sustained fire. I offered you a chance to get together to compare your load to those in my 20 EXTREME and 20 Tactical over the same chronograph and comparing case measurements. Instead of taking me up on my offer you picked your personal attacks on me. You have never reported on how the 20 Tactical performed, with that load, on a hot day in the gopher patch. In fact you never seem to talk much about the beloved 20 Tac or the 20 Tactical at all. However you still try to make out that I claimed that your Cooper magazine would not hold your loaded round which was not true at all as I know it would. If you can find where I stated that please cut and paste it. However, like other things you claim I said about you, it is not true and you will have no luck proving it.

You claim that you know about Saami specs yet you continue to make claims that manufacturers alter Saami chambers. You really have no idea about FreeBore or Throat Dimensions otherwise you would know that the Kindler designs have the same throat dimensions as the 204R which was designed to run about 0.2000" jump to the lands with 0.001" FB as the overbore case required to be set up like a Wheatherby. Todd Kindler moved the shoulder back on a 223 R case and Shortened FB to just under 0.0050" FB in an attempt to get the 33 V-Max to fit. However it is still likely running close to 0.1000" off the lands when seated just into the neck. The 39/40 grain bullets seat further down into the neck but get no closer to the lands unless they are nearly falling out the neck. If they are seated to Saami Magagine length, of 2.26" OAL, the heavy bullets seat into case and now that Dakota Brass is not available anymore the Lapua 223 M brass is having donut problems and need s to be turned. Why is it that these bullets, including the 55 Berger, fit perfectly in in the neck of my 20 EXTREME and fit in a Saami magazine when seated to the lands or up to 0.050". off ??? Well if you had paid attention, instead of ridiculing me, you would have learned the answer to that. Perhaps you did and have come to the conclusion , as I, that my design is in fact superior but choose to ignore that and continue to try to undermine me.

I did not develop all of these loads but I know quite a lot more about these cartridges than you give me credit for. Try and pick out the superior loads as per fit to the lands and efficiency.

Quote:
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I have reached the picture limit but assure you that I have many more loads to post.
The fact is that the manufacturers do make rifles with chambers that vary from the SAAMI specs, especially where the throat length is concerned. Anyone with any experience knows that you have to measure the distance to the lands with every different rifle, custom or factory , because as much as you would like this distance to be the same it is not the same. There is a reason that fireformed cases will not fit in every rifle chambered for that cartridge, the reason being that the chamber dimensions do vary from rifle to rifle despite the SAAMI standards. Despite the fact that you claimed that my loads will not fit the magazine of my rifle, because your drawing says that they won't, they do in fact fit just fine, because the manufacturer of my magazine chose not to make the magazine to SAAMI specs. I even posted pictures that proved this, but of course you just chose to ignore the proof and resort back to your SAAMI drawings . As to your pressure estimates, they are estimates based on your precious drawings, but being as how the dimensions vary, from rife to rifle, you have no way of knowing how accurate your estimates are. As for my own load, I have actual experience with my load, using my rifle, and my components, whereas you have only your theory based on your diagrams, which don't agree with the dimensions of the chamber in my rifle, as proven by the distance to the lands measured in my rifle.
Once again, myself and several other forum members form our opinions based on actual results , rather than on drawings, so our opinions will vary from yours. It's no different on the other forums that you used to post on, it seemed to be your drawings and theories against everyone else's actual results, and there were constant arguments as long as you were allowed to post on those forums.
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  #144  
Old 11-25-2017, 02:13 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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^^^ Simply awesome. Iclund.

Thanks for sharing.

Very informative indeed.
I see how fitting the dies to case vers chamber idea all comes into play.

Don

Last edited by Don_Parsons; 11-25-2017 at 02:26 PM.
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  #145  
Old 11-25-2017, 03:24 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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[QUOTE=elkhunter11;3675359]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
I must have leaned quite a lot as I really do know how to fire form brass and use multiple methods of developing loads. In fact I have devised a method of forming brass, to new brass specification, everywhere except the neck to shoulder area with a set of custom dies. My reamers are specked to form a chamber fit of 0.001" at the base datum, 0,0015" at the shoulder and about 0.003" at the neck. As well the dies are cut such that expander balls or bushings are not required to get a 0.003" neck tension if the neck is turned to spec. If I want less neck tension I use an expander ball that expands the neck by 0.001" or turn the neck slightly below spec with out the expander. This method was created by me as was my method of using a Pressure Ladder which works very well when developing "Good Safe Loads" with a multitude of components.

I certainly have not condemned HW223's methods, none of them are his anyway and certainly nothing was created by him. However he seems to take every opportunity to try to make out like I know nothing as I do not go to competitions. He does not know a thing about what I am doing yet he tells me that my components are not up to spec and that my methods suck in spite of the fact that many of my loads shoot Sub 1/3 MOA from my varmint rifles without the benefit of Tony Boyer's fine tuning method. Does he have to be reminded that I am using a Stock CZ 527 without any modifications except for a chambered, or factory re-chambered barrel. Dies he have to be reminded that I shoot from a Bi-Pod if I can get my wheelchair up to a bench. Perhaps he can tell us how much he has invested in rifle, rests and scope? Maybe if I had those components to work with and a healthy body perhaps I would be shooting one hole groups? Is that what he is afraid of or does he have to run someone down just to make himself feel superior???

As for yourself you have never created anything and have been ****ed at me every since I warned people about the potentially dangerous load you posted in your beloved 20 Tactical. You choose to ignore pressure tested loads in the Ramshot Manual, showing RS X-Terminator getting the 39 BK to 3700 fps, but generating 63,000PSI. I tried to explain that your RL 10 X load would put out more pressure than RS X-Terminator, as I had extensive experience with both, and that your 3900 fps load would likely be unsafe on hot days under sustained fire. I offered you a chance to get together to compare your load to those in my 20 EXTREME and 20 Tactical over the same chronograph and comparing case measurements. Instead of taking me up on my offer you picked your personal attacks on me. You have never reported on how the 20 Tactical performed, with that load, on a hot day in the gopher patch. In fact you never seem to talk much about the beloved 20 Tac or the 20 Tactical at all. However you still try to make out that I claimed that your Cooper magazine would not hold your loaded round which was not true at all as I know it would. If you can find where I stated that please cut and paste it. However, like other things you claim I said about you, it is not true and you will have no luck proving it.

You claim that you know about Saami specs yet you continue to make claims that manufacturers alter Saami chambers. You really have no idea about FreeBore or Throat Dimensions otherwise you would know that the Kindler designs have the same throat dimensions as the 204R which was designed to run about 0.2000" jump to the lands with 0.001" FB as the overbore case required to be set up like a Wheatherby. Todd Kindler moved the shoulder back on a 223 R case and Shortened FB to just under 0.0050" FB in an attempt to get the 33 V-Max to fit. However it is still likely running close to 0.1000" off the lands when seated just into the neck. The 39/40 grain bullets seat further down into the neck but get no closer to the lands unless they are nearly falling out the neck. If they are seated to Saami Magagine length, of 2.26" OAL, the heavy bullets seat into case and now that Dakota Brass is not available anymore the Lapua 223 M brass is having donut problems and need s to be turned. Why is it that these bullets, including the 55 Berger, fit perfectly in in the neck of my 20 EXTREME and fit in a Saami magazine when seated to the lands or up to 0.050". off ??? Well if you had paid attention, instead of ridiculing me, you would have learned the answer to that. Perhaps you did and have come to the conclusion , as I, that my design is in fact superior but choose to ignore that and continue to try to undermine me.

I did not develop all of these loads but I know quite a lot more about these cartridges than you give me credit for. Try and pick out the superior loads as per fit to the lands and efficiency.



The fact is that the manufacturers do make rifles with chambers that vary from the SAAMI specs, especially where the throat length is concerned. Anyone with any experience knows that you have to measure the distance to the lands with every different rifle, custom or factory , because as much as you would like this distance to be the same it is not the same. There is a reason that fireformed cases will not fit in every rifle chambered for that cartridge, the reason being that the chamber dimensions do vary from rifle to rifle despite the SAAMI standards. Despite the fact that you claimed that my loads will not fit the magazine of my rifle, because your drawing says that they won't, they do in fact fit just fine, because the manufacturer of my magazine chose not to make the magazine to SAAMI specs. I even posted pictures that proved this, but of course you just chose to ignore the proof and resort back to your SAAMI drawings . As to your pressure estimates, they are estimates based on your precious drawings, but being as how the dimensions vary, from rife to rifle, you have no way of knowing how accurate your estimates are. As for my own load, I have actual experience with my load, using my rifle, and my components, whereas you have only your theory based on your diagrams, which don't agree with the dimensions of the chamber in my rifle, as proven by the distance to the lands measured in my rifle.
Once again, myself and several other forum members form our opinions based on actual results , rather than on drawings, so our opinions will vary from yours. It's no different on the other forums that you used to post on, it seemed to be your drawings and theories against everyone else's actual results, and there were constant arguments as long as you were allowed to post on those forums.
It doesn't seem to matter that I did not claim that your load would not fit in the magazine of your rifle. I know that Cooper makes the longer magazine??? I said it would not fit in a Saami specked magazine but you choose to believe what you conjure up in your convoluted mind.

As well manufacturers do make chambers that vary from Saami Specs but they are not allowed to mark them with any Saami speced designation. Saami specked

Dimensions do change from rifle to rifle in Saami Speced chambers, even throats although they are specked the same but this is due to the tolerances shown on the Saami drawings. All Saaami chambers have to be done within those tolerances and if you have one chamber cut even 0.002" longer than one with minimum HS it will not fit. HS tolerances are usually about 0.005" from a Go gauge to a No Go gauge and this is why one may not fit in the other. Dimensional tolerances are 0.002" on Saami drawings if you would actually look and recognize what you are seeing. Wildcat cartridges have very similar tolerances as well so a case fired in one may not fit in another chamber. I just measured a 7mm -08 case that I fire formed to the chamber in my Rem 700 Varmint which I used to fire brass for every 7mm-08 that I loaded for, which was a considerable number. Even after a few neck sizing's and loaded to a Saami specked Load it measures just over max cartridge specs but less than Saami Minimum Chamber so I guess I had a "Good Safe Load" that shot 1/3 MOA in most of these rifles.
[IMG][/IMG]

Saami Pressures can all be estimated by measuring the PR on a Factory fired case, which is usually smaller than a FL sizing die and quite a bit under Saami Minimum chamber. I really don't know why you can't seem to get this through your head.

A number of people on the other forum you mention were just as thick headed as the one calling himself stubblejumper who always joined in as you do. When I had had enough of them posting pictures of retarded children, etc, in reference to me, and the moderator chose to take their side I kind of told him where to go. That is why I am not allowed to post anymore but it was my choice. You can go back there and you will find , just as on this forum, that I have never been disrespectful in any way posted to derail a thread.

Last edited by lclund1946; 11-25-2017 at 03:49 PM.
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  #146  
Old 11-25-2017, 03:55 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
A number of people on the other forum you mention were just as thick headed as the one calling himself stubblejumper who always joined in as you do. When I had had enough of them posting pictures of retarded children, etc, in reference to me, and the moderator chose to take their side I kind of told him where to go. That is why I am not allowed to post anymore but it was my choice. You can go back there and you will find , just as on this forum, that I have never been disrespectful in any way posted to derail a thread
So it was everyone else including the moderator that was the problem? They were all being unreasonable, while you did nothing at all to initiate the constant confrontations that led to you being told that you were no longer welcome? Coincidentally, from what I have seen,many people that claim to be an innocent victim, are actually the cause of most of their own problems.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 11-25-2017 at 04:01 PM.
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  #147  
Old 11-25-2017, 04:03 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
So it was everyone else including the moderator that was the problem? They were all being unreasonable, while you did nothing at all to initiate the constant confrontations that led to you being told that you were no longer welcome? Coincidentally, from what I have seen,many people that claim to be an innocent victim, are actually the cause of most of their own problems.
Whatever! I recently looked in on a thread where these people were discussing whether or not it was important to know how much powder a case would hold under a seated bullet. They were at a loss to figure a way to do that without using water. All they had to do was go back over some of my, posts that they chose to ridicule for about 5 years, and they would have had their answer. I am not about to mess with you for another 5 years .

Last edited by lclund1946; 11-25-2017 at 04:26 PM.
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  #148  
Old 11-25-2017, 05:07 PM
crazy_davey crazy_davey is offline
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Whatever! I recently looked in on a thread where these people were discussing whether or not it was important to know how much powder a case would hold under a seated bullet. They were at a loss to figure a way to do that without using water. All they had to do was go back over some of my, posts that they chose to ridicule for about 5 years, and they would have had their answer. I am not about to mess with you for another 5 years .
LOL!

That's an interesting post, thanks.

Wow, just wow
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  #149  
Old 11-27-2017, 08:18 PM
jaredp jaredp is online now
 
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I find that seating depth is monumentally more important than charge weight. Get close to your lands first.
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  #150  
Old 11-28-2017, 03:32 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by jaredp View Post
I find that seating depth is monumentally more important than charge weight. Get close to your lands first.
While it is usually much easier to find Good Loads with the bullet close to the lands most Saami and many Wildcat cartridge designs do not lend themselves to seating close to the lands. As well case capacity is usually too small or two large to get an optimal case fill of 95 to 100% without compression. As well COAL is usually over Saami Max so they will not fit in magazines of most rifles that they are chambered in. A close examination of the pictures I posted, with the 40 V-Max seated in various 20 caliber cartridges, and many loaded with RS X-Terminator as per Ramshot pressure data will show this.

The 204 Ruger is a prime example of this with close to 0.300" Jump to the lands with 32-40 V-Max bullets seated to 2,26"OAL. The overbore case required this design, much like Roy Weatherby's, in order to even out the pressure curve and it will run the 40 V-Max to 3700 fps and still remain within the Saami Pressure limit of about 58,000 PSI. It has 0.100" FreeBore and a 1 degree 30 Minute Throat angle.

The 20 Tactical is a 223 rem case with the OAL shortened and shoulder bumped back in an attempt to get a longer neck, like the 204R, and have the bullets fit in a Saami Standard 0.226" magazine. The FreeBore was reduced to 0.045", in an attempt to reach the lands with the v-Max bullets, but the Throat angle was left the same as the 204R. Then in an attempt to get the case to hold a similar amount of powder the case is blown out at the shoulder by about 0.014". This actually resulted in a case that holds about 0.7 grains less RS X-Term behind the 40 V-Max but can only get 3700 fps by increasing the pressure to 63,000 PSI. Accuracy is not good, especially in a 1/2" twist barrel until these pressures are reached. Here is a kink to a discussion by some of the boys who gave me a hard time on this site. Notice the confusion??? http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28859

My 20 EXTREME is designed to reach the lands with the 32-40 grain V-Max bullets, seated properly in the neck and still able to fit in a 2.26" Magazine. The case capacity is optimal for a wide range of bullets and powder to get 95 to 100 % case fill even including the 55 Berger. It has accuracy nodes at 3500 fps with a 95 % case fill and 3650 fps with a 100 % case fill with the 39/40 bullets using IMR 8208. It will run the 40 V-max to 3700 fps, on a hot day with about 60,000 PSI as estimated by PR expansion, Primer flow and Quick Load.

After about 7,000 rounds my original 20 EXTREME barrel was getting washed at the throat so that my groups were getting more near 1/2 MOA than 1/4 MOA. I got David Henry to run my Minimum Spec Reamer in 0.170", which is the difference between a 222 Rem (20 EXTREME) shoulder and a 223 Rem shoulder. I now have a 20-223 EXTREME that has 20 EXTREME dimensions but is 0.170 " longer and about 1/2 way between 223 Saami Minimum and Maximum chamber dimensions at the 0.200" Base datum. This is a bit bigger than the 20 Tac and 20 Practical which measure between 0.374" and 0.375" at that point. However the shoulder remains in the same spot and remains the same dimension as the 223 Rem new brass. No bumping of the shoulder and no fire forming, like the 20 Tactical, and everything fits with a nice low pressure node and a High pressure node that is very similar to the 20 Tac with Term.
[IMG][/IMG]

This target shows the 40 V-Max with X-Term at the low and high nodes in the 20-223 EXTREME. It also shows a pressure ladder shot with RL 10 X and the 40 V_Max that is near Max at 3509 fps as primers are flowing 0.0025" and brass is fire formed at the base much the same as the 24.0 grain load of X-Term.
[IMG][/IMG]

H 4895 seems to be near Max as shown in this target with Lapua M and Winchester brass running neck and neck. The Winchester brass always seems to shoot best by a slim margin although velocity is down. Will have more on this later.
[IMG][/IMG]
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