PAL Verification When Selling Rifle

[slopeshunter]

Are we required to either phone the CFC or go online to the website and verify the PAL of the buyer?

If so, does this process only confirm that everything is OK with the buyer's PAL?

Is there any other information that they collect with this process? Is it letting them know that this person actually bought a rifle of mine? Or is it just entering their number and getting back a response that "you're good to go"?

If I look at the buyers PAL and see that it is not expired, is that verified enough?

Thanks for any info.

[slopeshunter]

I just read this on the website:

Transferring a firearm
Non-restricted Firearms

You do not need to register non-restricted firearms, but the transferor (seller) must obtain confirmation of the validity of the transferee's (buyer's) firearms licence, prior to the transfer of a non-restricted firearm.

The transfer of a non-restricted firearm may take place only after a reference number has been issued. The reference number is valid for a period of ninety (90) days or for the remaining period of validity of the transferee's (buyer's) licence. If a reference number expires before the physical transfer of the firearm, a new reference number must be requested.

Online: The licence verification process can be initiated online by the transferor (seller) through the Individual Web Services or Business Web Services portals.

The transferor (seller) will be required to provide the following information:

the transferee's (buyer's) licence number, date of birth, and email address
declaration that the transferor (seller) has taken reasonable steps to verify that the transferee (buyer) is the holder of the licence that is the subject of the reference number request
The transferor (seller) will need to ensure that the transferee (buyer) who presents themselves for a transaction looks the same as the photograph on the firearms licence presented. This may be more difficult in the online environment.

The transferor (seller) may ask the buyer to engage in a video call or other means that would allow the transferor (seller) to have confidence that the persons presenting themselves as the transferee (buyer) and the licence the transferee (buyer) presents are the same. Alternatively, if a visual comparison is not possible, the transferor (seller) may ask the buyer to present a second photo ID that is issued at the federal, provincial, or municipal level.

If a reference number can be issued, both the transferor (seller) and the transferee (buyer) will receive a message in the portal message centre. In addition, the reference number and expiry date will appear on the screen moments after the completed request is submitted.

In the event a reference number cannot be issued, the transferor (seller) will be advised to have the transferee (buyer) contact the CFP to obtain more information. In addition, a message will be sent to both the transferor (seller) and transferee (buyer) through the portal message centre identifying that the reference number cannot be issued.
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So it gives you a reference number that's good for 90 days, but they don't actually know if you went ahead and sold the rifle to that person?

To me this just seems like one step closer to a long gun registry. But I don't see anywhere that I provide info on the rifle or confirm that the sale went through. So please tell me I'm being paranoid.

[whitetail Junkie]

What are guys doing at the gun shows?

[Scott N]

Originally Posted by slopeshunter

So it gives you a reference number that's good for 90 days, but they don't actually know if you went ahead and sold the rifle to that person?

To me this just seems like one step closer to a long gun registry. But I don't see anywhere that I provide info on the rifle or confirm that the sale went through. So please tell me I'm being paranoid.

You are correct when stating that the government doesn't know if a firearm was actually sold. In a private sale, no info about any firearm needs to be provided, only the buyer's PAL#, DOB, and email address is required to obtain a reference #. The reference # is supposed to be confirmation that the seller has "took the extra step" to confirm the validity of the buyer's PAL.

Retailers do need to record the info about the firearm though, for their own records, and retain that info for a ridiculous amount of time. The info on the firearm isn't provided to the Feds automatically though. I'd guess that almost all retailers have always recorded the info on firearms sales for their own purposes (warranty, sales records, etc.), so obtaining a reference # to confirm someone's PAL, seems to be mostly an exercise for the government to say "that we're doing something". The RCMP could request that info from retailers, but that bridge hasn't been crossed yet.

[Smokinyotes]

One of the stupidest ideas these liberals have had. All it is designed for is to inconvenience firearms owners.

[Ebrand]

Is this checking the PAL status an idea some one in the firearms program wrote into their policy?

Is the requirement to online verify in the Firearms Act ?

Will try to look this up later today.

[Dmay]

Surprised this is new to anybody. Came into force last year. Most people I know, however, choose to ignore it.

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

One of the stupidest ideas these liberals have had. All it is designed for is to inconvenience firearms owners.

Most likely a lead up to,(already the beginning of ) another long gun registry. Purchase from any shop and they are required to maintain all records for a long time. Government or police can demand access anytime. In effect, a registry!

Originally Posted by Dmay

Surprised this is new to anybody. Came into force last year. Most people I know, however, choose to ignore it.

First I have heard of it. They change the rules so much and so often, it's almost impossible to keep up.

[huntingfamily]

Just purchased a firearm from an individual. He took my PAL # and contacted the RCMP Firearms by phone. They confirmed it was valid and he's mailed it to me by Canada Post. It was painless...

[Dmay]

Originally Posted by huntingfamily

It was painless...

And pointless. None of their damn business.

[Smokinyotes]

The way I see it is you sit in a classroom and take a course that most pre school kids could pass. Then you have to have a specific sized picture with certain colours taken. Then you fill out a bunch of paper complete with references and mail it to the CFP along with your money. You then wait and wait and wait and eventually, maybe if you crossed the T’s correctly they will send you a card with your picture and a number on it. So basically it’s a card saying hey I’m not a criminal.
Now you want to buy or sell a gun, you again have to jump through more hoops to complete the transaction.
The RCMP did the checks and issued the card. If it’s no longer valid maybe they should actually go to the individual and revoke it rather than just making life more miserable or inconvenient for those that have done absolutely nothing wrong.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by zabbo

Most likely a lead up to,(already the beginning of ) another long gun registry. Purchase from any shop and they are required to maintain all records for a long time. Government or police can demand access anytime. In effect, a registry!

For as long as I can remember, retail businesses have been required to keep detailed records of all firearms sales. ie. customer name, license number, firearm model and serial number
Not being aware of this, I remember being surprised when the sporting goods shop that was beside Wei's Western Wear on Gaetz Ave, downtown Red Deer recorded my FAC information when I purchased my first new firearm; watched them record it in the firearms ledger that was kept under the counter. I nearly walked on that deal because of it, but I really wanted that 308 BLR.

[Dmay]

Amen!!!

[Dmay]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

The way I see it is you sit in a classroom and take a course that most pre school kids could pass. Then you have to have a specific sized picture with certain colours taken. Then you fill out a bunch of paper complete with references and mail it to the CFP along with your money. You then wait and wait and wait and eventually, maybe if you crossed the T’s correctly they will send you a card with your picture and a number on it. So basically it’s a card saying hey I’m not a criminal.
Now you want to buy or sell a gun, you again have to jump through more hoops to complete the transaction.
The RCMP did the checks and issued the card. If it’s no longer valid maybe they should actually go to the individual and revoke it rather than just making life more miserable or inconvenient for those that have done absolutely nothing wrong.

AMEN!! here I meant.

[kerthump]

I figure the only reason for this is to confirm the buyer’s PAL has not been revoked. In such a case, it is revoked electronically, typically the physical PAL is not seized, since it could too easily be hidden away. The Liberals never said that was the purpose of the change in regulations, they would rather let gun owners get in an uproar and bait the Conservatives. Politics.
I did get a reference number to sell a firearm. No mention of the actual firearm, just PAL, DOB etc. As it turned out, the deal fell through, no firearm was transferred.

[ctd]

something tells me they
1. issued firearms licenses to the wrong people
2. fake firearm licenses are currently in circulation due to them being stolen.
3. they want us to perform the Police Job of identifying illegal buyers.

Either way confirming a license is valid via a phone call is stupid. So many fake IDs out there. If they have a issue then they should reissue all firearm owners with a new license that is different then the old one.

[Cross Eyed Cowboy]

Originally Posted by ctd

If they have a issue then they should reissue all firearm owners with a new license that is different then the old one.

From what I understand a new type of PAL/RPAL license is currently in the works and existing holders will be receiving a new one shortly.

As to what has changed I don't know for sure, supposedly new security features, what ever that means.

[REMINGTON JIM]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

One of the stupidest ideas these liberals have had. All it is designed for is to inconvenience firearms owners.

Absolutely it is

[REMINGTON JIM]

Originally Posted by Dmay

And pointless. None of their damn business.

YUP. But Apparently there’s LIBERALS on here

[Dmay]

Originally Posted by Cross Eyed Cowboy

From what I understand a new type of PAL/RPAL license is currently in the works and existing holders will be receiving a new one shortly.

No. Starting soon anybody renewing will receive the new-look ones. They won't be replacing existing, valid cards. Until they expire.

[CaberTosser]

After having seen how fraudsters have been committing identity theft/impersonation on this site & CGN, I decided some time ago (before they changed the law) that it was prudent to call the CFC just to ask if there have been any reports of fraud on the PAL # provided (if not a face to face transaction). All I ask is if the PAL is still valid & if it’s been flagged for impersonation, I make no mention of what’s being sold.

Most of us have seen how fraudsters can get a photo of someone else’s PAL & how they’ll take to pretending that it’s theirs. Post an ad of something they don’t have, one or more people send PAL photos & now they’ve got 1/2 dozen PAL #’s to impersonate. For this reason I won’t send PAL photos anymore.

[colroggal]

I've made two on line purchases since the new rule came I to effect. Both times I recieved an email notifying me that my PAL was being used for a purchase and providing me with a link to the details and a confirmation.

I haven't sold anything since the rules changed so I dont know how many hoops there are or what info is being requested.

If someone was using my PAL to make illegal purchases online this system would catch them pretty quick. I dont think that's all bad.

Colin

[Quest206]

Originally Posted by ctd

something tells me they
1. issued firearms licenses to the wrong people
2. fake firearm licenses are currently in circulation due to them being stolen.
3. they want us to perform the Police Job of identifying illegal buyers.

Either way confirming a license is valid via a phone call is stupid. So many fake IDs out there. If they have a issue then they should reissue all firearm owners with a new license that is different then the old one.

I just came from the RCMP to check all this out. You, as a seller have to verify by phone or online, the buyers PAL. The problem is as stated above. I was told by the RCMP there are a lot of fake licenses being used and this is a sure way to check the validity of the PAL in question. Online is simple and painless. Three things are needed: Buyer license number, Buyer date of birth, and Buyer email address. Almost instantly a verification number is displayed that can be printed and is valid for 90 days. Nothing else is required.

The new licenses being issued are supposed to have some kind of built in security and as the old licenses expire they will be replaced with the new style of license

[eyeflyer]

Originally Posted by Dmay

And pointless. None of their damn business.

Exactly, don't comply with BS like this. People are actually doing this for private sales..............WHY,
Impossible for them to know if you verified Pal or not. Just say firearm was purchased years ago before this regulation was in place.

[Quest206]

Originally Posted by eyeflyer

Exactly, don't comply with BS like this. People are actually doing this for private sales..............WHY,
Impossible for them to know if you verified Pal or not. Just say firearm was purchased years ago before this regulation was in place.

That's fine and dandy if you are selling to your neighbor or someone you know and trust but what do you do at a gunshow? The law is the law and when you don't know the guy handing you the money it's comforting to know that you have done everything you can to cover your *****, especially when the CFO has a table at every gunshow. It's peace of mind for the 2 minutes it takes to get the verification number. Maybe some of the folks don't remember when FAC / PAL had to be recorded along with serial number, make and model of firearm being purchsed. This system is much simpler with less information being recorded.