thrown charges versus weighed charges for long range

[catnthehat]

Well, today I made a decision to see for myself whether or not throwng charges makes a difference.

For many, many years, I followed both Tom Whittaker's and Harold Vaughn's advice on throwing charges up to around 600 meters and then weighing them after that.
Both of the above are well documented, Whittaker being a World class irons shooter and Vaughn being a Top shelf NASA ballistics engineer and author of the book Rifle Accuracy Facts.

About 10 years ago I quit doing that and started throwing everything, because
A: I was using a very high quality Harrel Measure, and
B: I could not outshoot the thrown charges because of circumstances like good long range shooting time, eyesight issues, etc.

As of late however, I have been able to shoot in better range conditions, and although my prescription has changed drastically and continues to , I am once again able to occasionally shoot a long range score that I am happy with .
In fact, the last ten shot string I shot for score at 800 meters had just about 1MOA of vertical dispersion , which really surprised me considering the conditions for the day!

So to that end, I plan on experimenting with weighing my charges again to see if it actually will make a difference.

The test will be a fairly simple one, with a friend handing me either a thrown or weighed a cartridge out on a particular box with me knowing what I am shooting , and the shots recorded.
That should tell the tale.
I'm thinking a series of tests over several day should be done as well.

Whittaker once said in an interview " if you really want to know what your rifle is doing , put a scope on it and put it on the bench"
I already know what the AO rifle is capable of , it has proven quite accurate when scoped and benched, The test is to see if weighing or throwing charges will actually make a difference with me strapped into the gun with the sling "n" irons at 800 meter and beyond.
Stay tuned , the first test is scheduled for tomorrow!
Cat

[huntinstuff]

Looking forward to your report

[waldedw]

Interesting, I have used thrown charges for my smaller calibers when using ball powder, they seem very accurate, for the larger rifles or extruded powder I have always used weighed charges, trickled to exact, no specific reason just the way Ive always done it.

Really waiting to see the results

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by waldedw

Interesting, I have used thrown charges for my smaller calibers when using ball powder, they seem very accurate, for the larger rifles or extruded powder I have always used weighed charges, trickled to exact, no specific reason just the way Ive always done it.

Really waiting to see the results

The AO rifle as some will remember, is in 6mmBR, the super chambering work done by our AO member fps plus .
This rifle was raffled off to help a family who got burned out last year, then was traded back to me by )Lone Wolf who won it) for my Ruger F/) rifle.
It is basically set up like this except for a small butt plate change.


The rest of the equipment is as such.
Brass is Lapua.
bullets will be 108 grain Hornady eld Match.
powder is 30.0 grains of Varget.
primers are CCI 450.
scale is an Ohaus beam scale
powder measure is a Harrel
Cat

[prarie_boy1]

Is there anyone in Canada who sells Harrel Measure's?

[duceman]

try plenty o patches. dean weger

[Pathfinder76]

A chronograph would tell the tale no?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

A chronograph would tell the tale no?

Theoretically, yes, as far as the velocity goes .
However, if I cannot outdrive the Harrel at long distance, there is not much use in spending a bunch of money on a high end scale is there ?
Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by prarie_boy1

Is there anyone in Canada who sells Harrel Measure's?

My Harrel came from Sinclair International .
I believe RPS International brings them in though .
Cat

[CBintheNorth]

I can honestly say that I have never shot a charge that I didn't weigh and trickle.
I'll be watching for your results.

[calgarychef]

Really interested to see what happens here. I’m gonna bet on the thrown charges.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

Really interested to see what happens here. I’m gonna bet on the thrown charges.

It will be interesting to say the least!
The question of course is not if in fact the weighed charges are better, but if I am able to shoot them better than the thrown charges .
If I can decrease my vertical dispersion by even a bit , I will start using the scale, but I have my doubts if I am in fact able to.
That is why I cannot know which cartridge I am loading, otherwise there is too much chance of sub conscious interferance !
Cat

[urban rednek]

You are trying to ascertain if the thrown charges are better (more uniform) than the weighed charges? How they shoot for you on any given day is immaterial, what matters is how consistent the thrown charge is when compared to your weighed charge.
If you want to save time and powder, throw and weigh 50 charges to see how close they are. More than .1 grain total spread will start showing vertical spread at extended distances.

However, if you have lots of powder and primers, range testing is always the preferred method.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

You are trying to ascertain if the thrown charges are better (more uniform) than the weighed charges? How they shoot for you on any given day is immaterial, what matters is how consistent the thrown charge is when compared to your weighed charge.
If you want to save time and powder, throw and weigh 50 charges to see how close they are. More than .1 grain total spread will start showing vertical spread at extended distances.

However, if you have lots of powder and primers, range testing is always the preferred method.

The questio. Is not if the weighed charges are more uniform, that is a forgone conclusion, the question is whether or not they make a bigger difference than 1MOA vertical group dispersion when I shoot them with the sling and irons at 800 meters.
Cat

[DLab]

I realise this is a "lets see what happens" fun project. I think if the tuned load showed low ES, lets say, in the single digits or close, and Cats Harrel can drop within a tenth or less consistently, which would represent approx 12.5 FPS of velocity variation or less with VarGet, but if ES numbers are double digit to start, could be dicey.
Assuming your Harrel's is set to the tuned load weighed charge.
If the AO rifle scoped is capable of MOA or less of vertical at distance, should work out or very close.
So many other variables.
I predict he won't be getting in the order line for a new V4.

I'm not sure about those Hornady bullets though.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Theoretically, yes, as far as the velocity goes .
However, if I cannot outdrive the Harrel at long distance, there is not much use in spending a bunch of money on a high end scale is there ?
Cat

In that particular discipline on that particular day in those particular conditions maybe. Physics is physics though.

[petew]

With bifocals, iron sights, and cataracts, it would never make a difference for me.

[duceman]

if your load is tuned in the middle of a node theoreticly 2 tenths up or down won’t show up; but better is better.....

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by duceman

if your load is tuned in the middle of a node theoreticly 2 tenths up or down won’t show up; but better is better.....

Out of the last 95 rounds fired over the course of four different days in varying conditions , at 500 meters only 7 were outside of the 2 MOA vertical dispersion .
At 800 my ten shot string was just under 1MOA or thereabouts .
This is what got me to wondering.
As you are well aware duceman, the biggest variable is the nut behind the bolt and in TR it is very evident when the wind picks up compared to bench or Fclass! LOL
For those that are not aware or are wondering
, the bull for TR is 2 MOA with a 1MOA V ( or X ring)
Fclass is half of that again.
Cat

[Dick284]

Might as well give up Cat.
Everyone is about gadgets and gear and weighing and measuring to a fractional thousandths.

It’s pure blasphemy to suggest to the many shooters that they themselves or Mother Nature has a far bigger impact on the down range results that happen.

[Wrongside]

Originally Posted by duceman

if your load is tuned in the middle of a node theoreticly 2 tenths up or down won’t show up; but better is better.....

This has been our experience. We shoot LR, for fun and competitively, and did a bunch of experimenting on thrown vs. weighed. Both accuracy @ 100m and vertical dispersion at range.

Other than load work up, I throw almost all loads now. Quality components and a suitable powder matter more than the last 0.02 of a grain. IME, but we aren’t usually chasing that one more elusive 0.1 MOA. Mileage and expectations may vary.

Look forward to Cat’s results and conclusions tho.

[duceman]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Out of the last 95 rounds fired over the course of four different days in varying conditions , at 500 meters only 7 were outside of the 2 MOA vertical dispersion .
At 800 my ten shot string was just under 1MOA or thereabouts .
This is what got me to wondering.
As you are well aware duceman, the biggest variable is the nut behind the bolt and in TR it is very evident when the wind picks up compared to bench or Fclass! LOL
For those that are not aware or are wondering
, the bull for TR is 2 MOA with a 1MOA V ( or X ring)
Fclass is half of that again.
Cat

8" vertical would be a deal breaker for me.......

[Smokinyotes]

Originally Posted by duceman

8" vertical would be a deal breaker for me.......

I dunno, got to remember Cat is using iron sights. I don’t think that’s to bad at all.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by duceman

8" vertical would be a deal breaker for me.......

A 1MOA sling shooter will be in the money at 800 meters if he has them all inside the bull, because he will invariably have some of those hitting the V!
As for today, our wind was not a steady or even waining wind from 0 to full value condition , it was switching to a following wind then coming full value from 09:00 with some quartering just to add some fun!

To that end, there was no direct correlation between the thrown charges and the weighed ones with the condition that was present.
The conclusion? I can hold all 50 rounds inside of 2.5 MOA if I watch the wind, and about 1.5 MOA in a given 10 shot string with the sling and irons .
The combined Standard deviation BTW, the thrown charges and the weighed together was 11.3 for the ten shot test group .
Extreme spread was 29FPS for the 50 rounds
Talking with my coach this evening he asked me
" So, what are you going to do with all this knowledge?"
" Do what our old man told me to" I said.
" Shut up and shoot the danged gun, Kid!:
" Perfect " was the response.
Cat

[waldedw]

Well that's good and bad, I was expecting some clear cut info that would support one or the other, it's good that one can either throw or trickle without compromising the load, so basically whatever floats your boat

Thanks Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by waldedw

Well that's good and bad, I was expecting some clear cut info that would support one or the other, it's good that one can either throw or trickle without compromising the load, so basically whatever floats your boat

Thanks Cat

Well , with an irons rifle maybe a guy can get away with it, but I think the deciding factor would be to do it with the gun benched and a good scope on it .
Unfortunately, I am not good enough to out shoot the rig with thrown charges at 800!
Cat

[waldedw]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Well , with an irons rifle maybe a guy can get away with it, but I think the deciding factor would be to do it with the gun benched and a good scope on it .
Unfortunately, I am not good enough to out shoot the rig with thrown charges at 800!
Cat

Yes it would be interesting, I may have to mess around a bit and see what shakes out, it's only a little powder and a few bullets and primers in the 6.5 PRC

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by waldedw

Yes it would be interesting, I may have to mess around a bit and see what shakes out, it's only a little powder and a few bullets and primers in the 6.5 PRC

Yeah, I was hoping for something astonishing like a 1/2 MOA shrinkage with the weighed charges, but such was not the case!
Cat

[catnthehat]

Here is the first one we did, the Vbull ad the low shot were sighters to get on the target, I then moved the group of so they were not conflicting.

Here are a couple of other targets, typical of what was going on .
Cat

[catnthehat]

This is a better representation of the first group .
Interestingly enough, of the three high shots, two were weighd and one was a thrown charge!
Cat