Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Guns & Ammo Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-08-2018, 12:16 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 7,284
Default Aftermarket Barrels - Break-in and Cleaning

Interested to learn the practices/techniques employed by shooters that have competed at the National and International levels.
__________________
Old Guys Rule
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-09-2018, 07:55 AM
HW223 HW223 is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Interested to learn the practices/techniques employed by shooters that have competed at the National and International levels.
Break in for our sbr barrels , this will be combined with fire forming the brass ( with bullets seated .050 long with light neck tension) for the barrel usually 22-25 pieces This brass will last the lifetime of the barrel in most cases and we operate way over the Sammi loads most of the time.
Shoot one , look in the bore with the bore scope If there is no copper just the grey colour from the carbon /graphite in the powder , keep going ( you are very lucky when this happens it is not the norm ) if there is copper present either in the lead throat area or at the muzzle end , clean
Using a good quality bore guide ,Push three wet patches through the the barrel pick them off the end do not pull the rod back to knock the patch off ( can cause crown damage if it jams ) , each one will normally be less black than the last , then soak the bronze brush with cleaner and work it back and forth, if your using a water base it will start to squeak ,when it squaks all the way from chamber to muzzle your done , usually about ten passes , take care not to push the brush much past the muzzle so as not to run the rod on the bottom of the crown ,
Now run a dry patch or two through the bore , have a look with the bore scope if all the copper is gone and the steal is clean run a patch down the barrel with eezox or lock eez on it and your ready to shoot the next one , if the is a blueish black colour on the steal st the chamber it must go , put a small dab of iosso on a SOFT nylon brush and short stroke (6-7Ē) the chamber end 6-10 times , now put a dry patch on and push it in the same distance ,now pull it back out through the bore guide , repeat this until a cleanish dry patch comes out , now wet a patch liberally with cleaner and push it through to get the rest of the residue , the idea here being not to push the iosso down the bore but to only work the affected area ,
Now look with the bore scope again , it should be clean again run a patch down it with eezox or lock eez ,
Shoot and repeat , at some point between 7-10 and 25 rounds the coppering should quit , I have seen some take as long as 100 rounds (aggravating ) ,
Even the best lapped barrels have some little ďhairs ď along a land here and there , as well there are tiny striations that need to be magnified to be seen ,this and the reamer marks are what your ďbreaking inĒ , the reamer marks usually go away in 25 rounds or so ,
Things not to do , never use iosso and a stiff nylon brush , this is a good way to wreck a bore , never use iosso on a patch or a patch wrapped around the nylon brush all it will do is polish the lands and make the barrel a coppering fouling mess , jbís Also works I told ,
If you;donít clean the copper and the blue black scale out of a new barrel your just putting more copper over old copper and it will never get after the problem are under neath ,
The top guys can tell when a barrel is fouling up by the bullet holes in the target they can see it coming , thatís a whole other discussion
Cleaning , most shoot between 7-10 shots on a target ,then clean , most barrels will shoot 10-25 rounds before some sort of fouling starts to appear that will kill your agg , the trick is to be in front of it not clean it after it wrecks your day , like adjusting poa for the last shot, good way to wind up on page two .
Iím sure there is more that I have missed but see if this works for a start
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:14 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 7,284
Default

Thanks, much appreciated. Sounds like a good bore scope is key to the operation. Also illustrates that copper fouled barrels are no friend to the consistency required in the SBR game.
Can you comment on the effectiveness of bronze VS nylon brushes?
__________________
Old Guys Rule
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-09-2018, 09:02 AM
HW223 HW223 is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Thanks, much appreciated. Sounds like a good bore scope is key to the operation. Also illustrates that copper fouled barrels are no friend to the consistency required in the SBR game.
Can you comment on the effectiveness of bronze VS nylon brushes?
Bronze brush is best for general brushing with cleaner , need a small bottle of water or alcohol to neutralize the cleaner so as not to eat the bronze when not in use , we throw them away after a day of shooting they begin to loose Brissles that can get stuck And cause problems ,
Nylon brushes donít seem to clean as good so we use them for the iossso but not general cleaning,
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-11-2018, 06:49 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,213
Default

Each person gets to pick and choose what best works for their cleaning operations.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...eaning-debate/

I had mine to a science long before this article came out.

I like the fast, simple, easy clean.

My agg is holding even between the "year-end" over all spread so long as I do my part.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-11-2018, 07:25 AM
chuck's Avatar
chuck chuck is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,553
Default

I donít mean to sound rude, but this illustrates as good a reason as any why NOT to break in a barrel. Those who do should now realize why that is. Laughing.
__________________
"All rifle mechanisms are not the same when it comes to reliability in the field."
-Bob F.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:49 AM
HW223 HW223 is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
I donít mean to sound rude, but this illustrates as good a reason as any why NOT to break in a barrel. Those who do should now realize why that is. Laughing.
As I read the article , seams everyone they interviewed that shoots short range breaks in and cleans often ,Billyís quote is dead on , if you ainít brushing you ainít winning, illustrates as good a reason as I need to break in and clean ,
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-11-2018, 01:23 PM
Full Curl Earl Full Curl Earl is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,358
Default Barrel

I would offer that if you choose not to follow a break in regime, as suggested by the barrel manufacturer, that you not try to warranty a poorly shooting tube with ď I read on AO to just keep shooting her, and that breaking in a barrel was a sales gimmickĒ. Benchmark would have ya pound sand I suspect.
Cleaning a gun is part of shooting, and I have some high round count magnum rifles that I suspect have benefited from proper maintenance.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:35 PM
Robmcleod82's Avatar
Robmcleod82 Robmcleod82 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,759
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl View Post
I would offer that if you choose not to follow a break in regime, as suggested by the barrel manufacturer, that you not try to warranty a poorly shooting tube with ď I read on AO to just keep shooting her, and that breaking in a barrel was a sales gimmickĒ. Benchmark would have ya pound sand I suspect.
Cleaning a gun is part of shooting, and I have some high round count magnum rifles that I suspect have benefited from proper maintenance.
More barrels are wrecked by cleaning than being shot.....
__________________
"I don't know about the "shooting Savages" part. I have one and I have had considerable difficulty doing well with it. Part of the reason for this is that I feel a need to put bag over my head to hide my identity when ever I am shooting it!"
Leeper
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-11-2018, 02:57 PM
HW223 HW223 is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 222
Default

[QUOTE=Robmcleod82;3810474]More barrels are wrecked by cleaning than being shot.....[/
Barrel wear depends greatly on the steel, lot to lot there are big differences . Barrels that are wrecked by cleaning are due to poor quality bore guides and improper methods , if you clean a barrel properly it will last just as long as a barrel that is never cleaned and allows firecracking to get bad.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-11-2018, 03:56 PM
Robmcleod82's Avatar
Robmcleod82 Robmcleod82 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,759
Default

[QUOTE=HW223;3810484]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robmcleod82 View Post
More barrels are wrecked by cleaning than being shot.....[/
Barrel wear depends greatly on the steel, lot to lot there are big differences . Barrels that are wrecked by cleaning are due to poor quality bore guides and improper methods , if you clean a barrel properly it will last just as long as a barrel that is never cleaned and allows firecracking to get bad.
Properly being the operative word....
__________________
"I don't know about the "shooting Savages" part. I have one and I have had considerable difficulty doing well with it. Part of the reason for this is that I feel a need to put bag over my head to hide my identity when ever I am shooting it!"
Leeper
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-11-2018, 04:47 PM
chuck's Avatar
chuck chuck is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,553
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl View Post
I would offer that if you choose not to follow a break in regime, as suggested by the barrel manufacturer, that you not try to warranty a poorly shooting tube with ď I read on AO to just keep shooting her, and that breaking in a barrel was a sales gimmickĒ. Benchmark would have ya pound sand I suspect.
Cleaning a gun is part of shooting, and I have some high round count magnum rifles that I suspect have benefited from proper maintenance.
Iíve had exactly one barrel warrantied. I did not get asked if I broke the barrel in. I was asked a few questions. They liked the answers, and sent me a new barrel.
__________________
"All rifle mechanisms are not the same when it comes to reliability in the field."
-Bob F.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:31 PM
Full Curl Earl Full Curl Earl is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,358
Default What manufacturer

What manufacturer was that, and what answers did they like, lol.
And I agree that Iíve seen quite a few barrels damaged by improper cleaning as well, fewer stainless by a significant margin. Iíve scoped a lot of barrels, and fouling is never consistent, clean a barrel without copper removal and slug it. Then remove the copper and slug it again. The difference is quite noticeable. (Especially if you gently reinstall the original slug back into the bore)
What does it mean on paper? Well, thatís up to how well you deliver down range.
Cleaning has worked well for me, and will continue to do so.

Iíve had exactly one barrel warrantied. I did not get asked if I broke the barrel in. I was asked a few questions. They liked the answers, and sent me a new barrel.[/QUOTE]
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:54 PM
HW223 HW223 is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 222
Default

Grey (graphite) fouling is desirable . Copper in the Bore results in bullets leaving the group
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:15 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 2,626
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
Grey (graphite) fouling is desirable . Copper in the Bore results in bullets leaving the group
That may be the case with some barrels, but not all. I have more that one custom barrel that won't shoot it's best until at least four or five shots have been through it. That includes both lapped an un-lapped barrels with either cut or button rifling.
Finding two barrels that react exactly the same to fouling is pretty rare from what I have seen. For the most part, I leave my barrels alone until accuracy begins to fall off. Sometimes it takes 40-60 rounds or better before that condition shows up.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-12-2018, 01:26 AM
JD848 JD848 is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,282
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Iíve had exactly one barrel warrantied. I did not get asked if I broke the barrel in. I was asked a few questions. They liked the answers, and sent me a new barrel.
If it had nothing to do with the BI shooting and cleaning then why bring it up,this is about rifle BI process in rifles,not about some poorly made barrel,get it together man,you sure you don't drink?

LAUGHING HAHAHHAHAHAHA and what the hell is that all about after every post.I don't want to be rude,but hahah laughing in your face you dip.Dosen't sound cool hey so why do it to others.

There's guys that forgot more than you will ever know ,so if you think your the best in the world,get in line there's a billion on top of there game ahead of you and there not laughing.I could care less if the inside of you barrel looked like a bad muffler,but don't feed stuff that's wrong or incorrect and then laugh in there face.
You said you were attacked by an anti hunter once,you sure it wasn't the wipe out rep.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-12-2018, 06:52 AM
chuck's Avatar
chuck chuck is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,553
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JD848 View Post
If it had nothing to do with the BI shooting and cleaning then why bring it up,this is about rifle BI process in rifles,not about some poorly made barrel,get it together man,you sure you don't drink?

LAUGHING HAHAHHAHAHAHA and what the hell is that all about after every post.I don't want to be rude,but hahah laughing in your face you dip.Dosen't sound cool hey so why do it to others.

There's guys that forgot more than you will ever know ,so if you think your the best in the world,get in line there's a billion on top of there game ahead of you and there not laughing.I could care less if the inside of you barrel looked like a bad muffler,but don't feed stuff that's wrong or incorrect and then laugh in there face.
You said you were attacked by an anti hunter once,you sure it wasn't the wipe out rep.
You are nuts.
__________________
"All rifle mechanisms are not the same when it comes to reliability in the field."
-Bob F.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-12-2018, 07:35 AM
HW223 HW223 is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
That may be the case with some barrels, but not all. I have more that one custom barrel that won't shoot it's best until at least four or five shots have been through it. That includes both lapped an un-lapped barrels with either cut or button rifling.
Finding two barrels that react exactly the same to fouling is pretty rare from what I have seen. For the most part, I leave my barrels alone until accuracy begins to fall off. Sometimes it takes 40-60 rounds or better before that condition shows up.
What discipline do you compete in ?
If we have a barrel that wonít shoot until 4-5 rounds go through , it will never stay on the gun for a competition .we would keep it as a practice barrel and only if it was able to shoot low .2ís in practice , if not itís scrap, shooting until the accuracy falls off in competition is a good way to wind up on page two. The idea is to stay in front of stray shots, different disciplines have different requirements , some have no time to clean but also donít demand the same accuracy as srb
Different lots of steel do respond differently , that is part of the reason it takes some barrels 10-15 rounds to break and others 150 rounds , usually try to buy barrels with consecutive numbers or from the same lots , even that is no guarantee that they are from the same lot of steel , usually you can tell when you machine them , they will cut the same
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-12-2018, 08:34 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Parkland County, AB
Posts: 2,626
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
What discipline do you compete in ?
If we have a barrel that wonít shoot until 4-5 rounds go through , it will never stay on the gun for a competition .we would keep it as a practice barrel and only if it was able to shoot low .2ís in practice , if not itís scrap, shooting until the accuracy falls off in competition is a good way to wind up on page two. The idea is to stay in front of stray shots, different disciplines have different requirements , some have no time to clean but also donít demand the same accuracy as srb
Different lots of steel do respond differently , that is part of the reason it takes some barrels 10-15 rounds to break and others 150 rounds , usually try to buy barrels with consecutive numbers or from the same lots , even that is no guarantee that they are from the same lot of steel , usually you can tell when you machine them , they will cut the same
Sorry .. I wasn't aware that I had to compete in order to know a bit about barrels. I suppose the guys that don't make the top five percent in a competitive shooting discipline don't know much either.
__________________
When applied by competent people with the right intent, common sense goes a long way.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-12-2018, 08:49 AM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 11,935
Default

Competitor vs non competitor.
Break in vs. Not breaking in.
O style press vs. Co-axial press
Collet die vs. Bushing die.
Balance beam vs. Electronic scale.
Bipod vs. Bags and rests
Muffs vs. Plugs
Chevy vs. Dodge.

Everyone thinks theirs is superior to the others.

Itís all relevant, to what youíre trying to accomplish.

For the great majority of us the benifits of one over the other are about as decernable as one toothpaste vs. The other.

If it brings you comfort, by all means do as you may.

If youíre hell bent upon imposing your will upon others because, you believe your process or beliefs are superior to the next guys, your on shakey ground that I reserve for evangelical ministries, and ultra polarized political whack jobs.
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-12-2018, 09:03 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 7,284
Default

We're getting a bit sidetracked here, so let's stick with that asked in the OP, which is to benefit from the best practices employed by folks that compete beyond the club level...regardless of discipline.
__________________
Old Guys Rule
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:33 AM
HW223 HW223 is online now
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 222
Default

Just trying to answer the original post , not really interested in arguing with guys who donít compete about how things are done at the national / international level, if you have a better way by all means get out there and prove it at a match , thats where the separation of what works and what doesnít really happens , if you start kicking butt on a regular basis Iím all ears
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-14-2018, 11:06 AM
Dean2's Avatar
Dean2 Dean2 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,379
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
Just trying to answer the original post , not really interested in arguing with guys who donít compete about how things are done at the national / international level, if you have a better way by all means get out there and prove it at a match , thats where the separation of what works and what doesnít really happens , if you start kicking butt on a regular basis Iím all ears
Well said.

The outer limits of top competition is what often defines the ultimate processes. Does that make those same processes necessary for the average shooter. No. Nascar rebuilds their motors after every race, 500 or less miles. Does that mean we should do it too on our daily drivers. Certainly not.

It is interesting stuff we can learn from and be entertained by. If you want to emulate the top competitors fine. Doesn't mean everyone in the world needs to do the same thing, and it doesn't make them lesser people. It entirely depends on the outcome you are looking for, but if you think you can compete at the top of the field you best be willing to emulate or improve on the processes of the top 10%.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-14-2018, 12:09 PM
chuck's Avatar
chuck chuck is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,553
Default

The trouble is, that you canít emulate them unless you are doing exactly what they do. Are you interested in packing a 20lb single shot rifle afield with a fixed 20 power scope? In my opinion, with some of this stuff, you are either in or out. Time and money should be focussed on stuff that actually matters (ie, I like concentric ammo) rather than stuff that is tough to prove effective, even at the highest level.
__________________
"All rifle mechanisms are not the same when it comes to reliability in the field."
-Bob F.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-14-2018, 03:29 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 7,284
Default

I think the maximum Light Varmint class SBR rig (all in, including scope) is 10.5 lbs? ... and the HV at 13.5 lbs??
__________________
Old Guys Rule
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-14-2018, 03:47 PM
chuck's Avatar
chuck chuck is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,553
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
I think the maximum Light Varmint class SBR rig (all in, including scope) is 10.5 lbs? ... and the HV at 13.5 lbs??
And hardly made for real field use. Nor shot off a bench in the field.
__________________
"All rifle mechanisms are not the same when it comes to reliability in the field."
-Bob F.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.