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10-07-2015, 10:30 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In the 400's
Posts: 6,581
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Hunting stops, where shooting starts.....
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How to start an argument online:
1. Express an opinion
2. Wait ....
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10-07-2015, 10:47 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottymouth
Hunting stops, where shooting starts.....
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...insert mic drop...
LC
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10-07-2015, 11:04 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,772
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Now that dust has settled A bit... yes my bad I meant dime at 10 yards not 20...
I compare this to shooting FITA.... In outdoor FITA for Adult Male (Senior Compound) you shoot 36 arrows at each distance 90m, 70,m 50,m and 30m
These are using arrows built for special purpose, 90 and 70 are shot on same size target, and 50 and 30 are shot on same size target....
Scores are higher at 70 than at 90, because group size is smaller, BUT.... in reality score is not an indicator of ease!.... it is just that with SAME SIZE target score changes... small errors don't penalkize you as much....
I will compare to 3D shooting, most people do not lose points on the 50 yard moose.... they lose it on the 20 yard skunk or raccoon....
WHY because after shooting a 50 yard moose with a hand sized 11 ring they now have a dime sized 11 ring at 20 and because it is close they let their mental focus slip "because it is easier" and end up often shooting an 8....
What I do for hunting practice is I spend most of my time practicing form at 20-30 so I get more shooting in (less walking retrieving arrows) I also shoot 6-12 arrows an end, again reducing walking.... then I shoot 40 and focus on shrinking group, same at 50, 60 and 70. Once I get beyond 60 you can really see arrow drop with the configuration I have and so while it has more than enough momentum to harvest an animal knowing the distance becomes way more critical.
If I was to plan on shooting longer I would build a different arrow suited for that purpose, however to me bowhunting success is defined by how close I can get and not miss, vs being far and trying to hit....
Will I shoot out to 70 under ideal conditions, YES but I have also passed at shorter distances because of poor conditions.... It is really hard to say what is too far...
When hitting animal becomes luck vs. skill is really the issue....
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10-07-2015, 12:29 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 365
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When hitting animal becomes luck vs. skill is really the issue....
Well said and true !
I think it's like drinking , know your limit and stay within it ! Everyone is differnt!
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10-07-2015, 04:15 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 614
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I hunt 40yds. My group is lethal at 60, but just don't want to chance it. I think a 60yd on an elk or moose wouldn't really be hard in good conditions, but I have concerns with penetration at that distance on such big animals.
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10-07-2015, 04:23 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkchaser
I would like to hear a couples peoples thoughts on good ethical shooting with your bow ? What you think is the normal maximum range is of the normal hunter . I know lots of guys shoot out 80 ,100 yards for practice . But is it honestly ethical to shoot way out there at game ?.. I personally shoot 60yrds max with my 70# apa before that it was 50yrds with my 60# bear . that's where I draw the line and only if everthing feels good and would fall together. I bow hunt to make me a better hunter ,stalker and to get as close to as I can. So far this year I have meet two guys that have been slinging sticks at deer over 90 yards and both wounded and lost the animals ! I can't even fathom shooting that far at a deer or elk that's what gun seasons for !
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For me its 60 yards is max. I am comfortable shooting a decent grouping at that distance.
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10-08-2015, 03:48 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robson3954
I hunt 40yds. My group is lethal at 60, but just don't want to chance it. I think a 60yd on an elk or moose wouldn't really be hard in good conditions, but I have concerns with penetration at that distance on such big animals.
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People worry so much about this but the reality is when you look at arrow ballistics.... hitting the right spot at that distance is much more important than penetration....
Penetration is about momentum..... momentum is speed x mass.....
I am finally seeing many article published on this that are getting it right!....
An arrow at 100 yards has about 87% of the momentum that it did at 20 yards....or at 60 yards it has 98% of momentum it had at 40 yards which is pretty small difference.....
So lets look at it this way a 60lb bow at 100 has same power as a 52 lb bow at 20!....
With sharp fixed bladed broad-heads there is more than enough momentum for penetration out to well beyond 100 yards with a 60 lb bow!.....
I have done lots of testing and have made many observations regarding arrow penetration.... Now that is where I like shooting longer distances for testing, not practice.... I have a huge foam block and it is interesting to shoot at 100 yards.... (broadhead tuning issues sure show up!)
BUT again it comes down to placement, shooting an animal in the arse at 20 yards or 100 yards is still an animal shot in the arse....and a vital hit at 20 yards will be a vital hit at 100 yards....
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10-08-2015, 05:59 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,521
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Good stuff
Quote:
Originally Posted by nekred
People worry so much about this but the reality is when you look at arrow ballistics.... hitting the right spot at that distance is much more important than penetration....
Penetration is about momentum..... momentum is speed x mass.....
I am finally seeing many article published on this that are getting it right!....
An arrow at 100 yards has about 87% of the momentum that it did at 20 yards....or at 60 yards it has 98% of momentum it had at 40 yards which is pretty small difference.....
So lets look at it this way a 60lb bow at 100 has same power as a 52 lb bow at 20!....
With sharp fixed bladed broad-heads there is more than enough momentum for penetration out to well beyond 100 yards with a 60 lb bow!.....
I have done lots of testing and have made many observations regarding arrow penetration.... Now that is where I like shooting longer distances for testing, not practice.... I have a huge foam block and it is interesting to shoot at 100 yards.... (broadhead tuning issues sure show up!)
BUT again it comes down to placement, shooting an animal in the arse at 20 yards or 100 yards is still an animal shot in the arse....and a vital hit at 20 yards will be a vital hit at 100 yards....
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Very informative read. Thanks.
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"We're not polishing fine china here"-Belichick.
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10-08-2015, 06:42 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,090
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You know it's too far when doubt displaces confidence.
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10-08-2015, 06:46 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nekred
People worry so much about this but the reality is when you look at arrow ballistics.... hitting the right spot at that distance is much more important than penetration....
Penetration is about momentum..... momentum is speed x mass.....
I am finally seeing many article published on this that are getting it right!....
An arrow at 100 yards has about 87% of the momentum that it did at 20 yards....or at 60 yards it has 98% of momentum it had at 40 yards which is pretty small difference.....
So lets look at it this way a 60lb bow at 100 has same power as a 52 lb bow at 20!....
With sharp fixed bladed broad-heads there is more than enough momentum for penetration out to well beyond 100 yards with a 60 lb bow!.....
I have done lots of testing and have made many observations regarding arrow penetration.... Now that is where I like shooting longer distances for testing, not practice.... I have a huge foam block and it is interesting to shoot at 100 yards.... (broadhead tuning issues sure show up!)
BUT again it comes down to placement, shooting an animal in the arse at 20 yards or 100 yards is still an animal shot in the arse....and a vital hit at 20 yards will be a vital hit at 100 yards....
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Got me thinking, thanks. Do you have any articles to share?
This was the best info I could find on arrow drop off speeds
http://excaliburcrossbow.org/content/arrow_ballistics
According to that, you're looking at 10% drop in velocity/momentum at 50yards. Far greater than 2% @ 60yards.
*and about 15% loss of KE
That said, even 15% drop off should give more than enough penetration at 60 yards.
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10-08-2015, 07:18 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artist
You know it's too far when doubt displaces confidence.
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Well Said !!!!!!!!!
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10-08-2015, 08:08 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,518
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How far is to far
Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
30 or less. Get better at setting up or your stalking technique. Chances decrease as you close the gap no different than flinging lead at 800 yards, doable yes but chances of wounding animals increase.
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X2!!
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10-08-2015, 08:14 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,782
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Those who say 30 or less....elk standing at 40.... clear shot, do you take it or pass?
LC
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10-08-2015, 08:23 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Nanton
Posts: 420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
Those who say 30 or less....elk standing at 40.... clear shot, do you take it or pass?
LC
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Shoot
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10-08-2015, 09:27 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Ardrossan
Posts: 890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
Those who say 30 or less....elk standing at 40.... clear shot, do you take it or pass?
LC
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I believe that if you think that 30 is your max then you should not shoot past it. I made up my mind before I went out that my max was my max. Being new to bowhunting I didn't want to have an unfortunate situation in the field where I pushed passed my max on an animal and didn't make a clean shot. I set up in locations that only allowed me to take shots out to my max which made it easier.
Also wanted broadside or quartering away to present the best target for me.
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10-08-2015, 09:33 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey
I believe that if you think that 30 is your max then you should not shoot past it. I made up my mind before I went out that my max was my max. Being new to bowhunting I didn't want to have an unfortunate situation in the field where I pushed passed my max on an animal and didn't make a clean shot. I set up in locations that only allowed me to take shots out to my max which made it easier.
Also wanted broadside or quartering away to present the best target for me.
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That's is for sure a good choice...I wait for broadside or quartering away shots as well.
Bow hunting especially you need to be very conscious of anatomy, range, obstructions and personal capability.
I think more folks should set a limit and stay within it.
If you haven't shot to 40 or feel uncomfortable, nothing wrong with passing on the shot. Too often hunters step outside the "known capable" range... sometimes it works out and many times it doesn't.
LC
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10-08-2015, 09:54 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,245
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I've been at full draw and passed on shots under 10yds, I've been at full draw and taken the shot at way past 10yds. Distance has less to do with it than conditions, to a certain extent of course. I mean, at 300yds my sight is below the shelf...
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10-08-2015, 10:38 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck
Those who say 30 or less....elk standing at 40.... clear shot, do you take it or pass?
LC
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...and that's why I'd never say "____ or less" in the first place. Why place unnecessary psychological limits on what might turn out to be a practically perfectly fine scenario?
There's been some great posts in this thread explaining the science of momentum/penetration, and, I think the science is fairly clear that an arrow is substantially lethal far past what most would consider "ethical" distances. The human factor is THE factor.
For myself, I never box myself into a set of pre-determined limitations before encountering an opportunity for a shot - it's impossible and unrealistic to place broad-brush limitations on all contributing factors. There are three basic factors I consider before any shot...
1) Is the position of the animal offering a good opening to the vitals?
2) Am I confident I can place the arrow where I want it at the given distance?
3) Am I reasonably certain the animal's behaviour is suggesting that the potential for "time-of-flight" error is minimal? (The animal is not spring-loaded and ready to bolt for example).
When I have the green light to these three factors, distance is not the end-all-be-all, and I will take the shot.
I got the green light for all three on my Muley this year at 63yds. The arrow passed clean through and stuck in the ground on the other side. If the green lights were on, I wouldn't hesitate at an Elk at 30, 40, 50, 60,...
Last edited by Artist; 10-08-2015 at 10:46 PM.
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10-08-2015, 11:58 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CANADA
Posts: 6,269
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In 1520 AD.. King Henry V111 shot 12 arrows in a row into the Cloth of Gold which is 12 inches square at 12 score which is 240 yards..
wow guys/gals that was 1520 AD
practice /proficiency/perfection
I, however, view ethics as an individual decision. My ethics are mine - and I won't explain or justify them to anyone else. I seek nobody's approval, just that of my own conscience. "
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...958548763C2A2E
David
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Scientific and Analytical Angler/Hunter
Last edited by Speckle55; 10-09-2015 at 12:04 AM.
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10-09-2015, 06:50 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,625
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[QUOTE=Speckle55;2990629]In 1520 AD.. King Henry V111 shot 12 arrows in a row into the Cloth of Gold which is 12 inches square at 12 score which is 240 yards..
wow guys/gals that was 1520 AD
practice /proficiency/perfection
I, however, view ethics as an individual decision. My ethics are mine - and I won't explain or justify them to anyone else. I seek nobody's approval, just that of my own conscience. "
Yes those were shots at targets and the enemy, who cares where the arrow hits on these really...slightly off to the right arrow sticks the enemy in the shoulder or arm, or is just outside the painted area...who cares.
Now on a game animal, which I would personally have more respect for than a target and or the enemy, I Will ensure a clean quick kill.
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Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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10-09-2015, 07:26 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WMU 108
Posts: 6,309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nekred
People worry so much about this but the reality is when you look at arrow ballistics.... hitting the right spot at that distance is much more important than penetration....
Penetration is about momentum..... momentum is speed x mass.....
I am finally seeing many article published on this that are getting it right!....
An arrow at 100 yards has about 87% of the momentum that it did at 20 yards....or at 60 yards it has 98% of momentum it had at 40 yards which is pretty small difference.....
So lets look at it this way a 60lb bow at 100 has same power as a 52 lb bow at 20!....
With sharp fixed bladed broad-heads there is more than enough momentum for penetration out to well beyond 100 yards with a 60 lb bow!.....
I have done lots of testing and have made many observations regarding arrow penetration.... Now that is where I like shooting longer distances for testing, not practice.... I have a huge foam block and it is interesting to shoot at 100 yards.... (broadhead tuning issues sure show up!)
BUT again it comes down to placement, shooting an animal in the arse at 20 yards or 100 yards is still an animal shot in the arse....and a vital hit at 20 yards will be a vital hit at 100 yards....
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Question , in your testing at different ranges , how much more penetration is there at 20 yds as compared to 100 ?
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10-09-2015, 10:10 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H380
Question , in your testing at different ranges , how much more penetration is there at 20 yds as compared to 100 ?
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I'd say penetration would [should] be the least of your worries at 100yds.
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10-09-2015, 10:17 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,177
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Quote:
In 1520 AD.. King Henry V111 shot 12 arrows in a row into the Cloth of Gold which is 12 inches square at 12 score which is 240 yards..
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So what proof do you have that this actually happened as you posted it? It may have been exaggerated greatly over the last 500 years.
I practice to 60 meters regularly, and occasionally to 70 meters, but I have no intention of taking a shot longer than 40 meters on a game animal, and even then, the conditions would have to be ideal. If I had been sitting in the cold for a couple of hours, I might not feel comfortable shooting past 30 meters.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-09-2015, 04:10 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speckle55
In 1520 AD.. King Henry V111 shot 12 arrows in a row into the Cloth of Gold which is 12 inches square at 12 score which is 240 yards..
David
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Pics- er, paintings or it didn't happen!
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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10-09-2015, 04:41 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speckle55
In 1520 AD.. King Henry V111 shot 12 arrows in a row into the Cloth of Gold which is 12 inches square at 12 score which is 240 yards..
wow guys/gals that was 1520 AD
practice /proficiency/perfection
I, however, view ethics as an individual decision. My ethics are mine - and I won't explain or justify them to anyone else. I seek nobody's approval, just that of my own conscience. "
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...958548763C2A2E
David
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Kim Jong il ruler of North Korea shot a 38 under par round of 34 at his first crack at golf. Wow guys/gals that was 1994. When you're writing history it's easy.
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“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.”
Thomas Sowell
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10-09-2015, 05:07 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,269
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Impressed
Havent seen a post like this since I've been on here.
Reminded me of days gone by on the Mathews site.
Maybe Neil or LC remembers ?
Thank you.
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10-09-2015, 06:23 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 45,177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speckle55
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Entertaining reading, but I see no proof of this supposed feat.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-09-2015, 07:23 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: WMU 108
Posts: 6,309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artist
I'd say penetration would [should] be the least of your worries at 100yds.
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Dont get me wrong , I have no intention of ever shooting that far , I'm too smart for that . Way too much can happen when an arrow has to travel that far . My question was just as stated . The guy I quoted stated that he had done lots of testing at different ranges and I was curious to know how much it differed .
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