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Old 06-12-2008, 09:21 AM
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Default Hard mouth dog

I have a lab that is about a year and a half old, and he chews the heck out of anything that goes into his mouth.
I am not a waterfowl hunter, but I figured that since I have a retriever I could take my "new buddy" out grousin' next fall...trouble is I fear that he will chew all my birds(if I get lucky enough to be able to use the word "all")to the point where they are no good for the dinner table.
I have done some homework on this, and have found two basic solutions:
1. Get a new dog- it's genetic
2. Use a stiff bristle brush for fetch training.
I have used several types of brushes...he chews them while retrieving to the point where his gums are bleeding all over, and it doesn't even slow him down.
I've never owned a dog before, and I have trained him to the point where he can retrieve doubles(triples on a good but rare day), and I have a good feeling that I can make a good hunting partner out of him, even though labs are not dedicated upland bird dogs. I just really really don't want to have to leave him at home when I go hunting.

Any other suggstions?
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:45 AM
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Hey there, You can fix a hard mouth but it will take some work. I would work on force fetch all over again (get Evan Graham's Smartfetch). Start at 'hold' and demand that hold is hold with NO chewing and mouthing. His hard mouth may be hiw way of avoiding the pressure of the retrieve so make force fetch as positive and progressive as possible, but also AWLAYS finish a session with you winning and getting him to do what you want with no mouthing. The Evan Graham book goes into wonderful detail about force fetch and how to progress through it and why it's done. I hope this helps!

Danni
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Old 06-12-2008, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by CBRHunter View Post
Hey there, You can fix a hard mouth but it will take some work. I would work on force fetch all over again (get Evan Graham's Smartfetch). Start at 'hold' and demand that hold is hold with NO chewing and mouthing. His hard mouth may be hiw way of avoiding the pressure of the retrieve so make force fetch as positive and progressive as possible, but also AWLAYS finish a session with you winning and getting him to do what you want with no mouthing. The Evan Graham book goes into wonderful detail about force fetch and how to progress through it and why it's done. I hope this helps!

Danni
Force fetching was someting that I avoided right from the start b/c it just looked like something that was beyond me- as being the trainer. It doesn't look like a time that is either fun or enjoyable for me or Stewie(my dog)
Am I wrong in assuming that?
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Old 06-12-2008, 11:45 AM
Northern_Hunting_Mom Northern_Hunting_Mom is offline
 
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Some of it can be difficult but really, 99% of the dogs out there do not need much pressure. Go slow but do expect to complete the training. My GSP liked to mouth the dummy, not really chew on it but he liked to roll it around in his mouth. The first thing you have your dog hold is your hand in a winter work glove.

An unhappy dog is a confused dog. Force Fetch takes the confusion away.
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Old 06-12-2008, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coreyh View Post
Force fetching was someting that I avoided right from the start b/c it just looked like something that was beyond me- as being the trainer. It doesn't look like a time that is either fun or enjoyable for me or Stewie(my dog)
Am I wrong in assuming that?

I force fetch all my retreivers.
The difference between one that has been trained with the force fetch and one that has not is very clear.
With a trainer that understands the concept and technique of force fetching it certainly does not have to be any more traumatic or dramatic than any other part of a training program.

Find a dog trainer to show/help you with this part of a program, or hire one to force break your dog.


And yes a dog will retrieve without being force broke. He will also retrieve without being house broke, or obedience trained or travel savvy. Each person decides what is an acceptable level of training for their own dog.

After many years training retreivers, I have to say that those that are opposed or horrified by the "force breaking" either have no first hand experience or simply do not understand the traing.

"May the force be with you"....Obi Wan Coyote

Ps. What is your dog allowed to retrieve? Hunting dog gets bumpers birds or tennis balls only.
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Old 06-12-2008, 05:53 PM
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Wasn’t sure of what “force fetch” referred to so I goggled the subject and found what seems to be the methods http://www.fetchpup.com/forcefetch.htm .

Couple of things you should consider (being this is your first dog) that you may already be aware of, but worth mentioning.

Although full size your dog is still very much a baby and pups chew when playing. The labs are even more prone to silly behavior up to 3 years and a male may not reach a mature nature until 4 or 5 years.

Most labs are soft mouthed by nature so do not assume he will be rough on birds until it is proven. Mine play tug of war with the kids and chew toys to bits but have never ruffled a feather on a bird.

Try making your training sessions short (20-30 minutes) and very workman like. Nothing gets a lab more serious then a pocket full of his favorite treats. When he performs well pet him and give him a treat. No roughhousing and loud “good boys” as this will induce a playful response and a pup’s instinct is to mix play with a few playful bites.

He will soon learn to enjoy these serious sessions more then play time mostly because of the treats involved. Bird hunting is not play time for a hunting dog. It is their favorite thing to do but they are dead serious when they are doing it, not unlike any wild animal on a hunt. Your training methods should mimic this.

Get yourself a proper training dummy or better yet a few real birds and never let him play with them. Use only these for your training and always keep your sessions serious.

I’ve only trained a few dogs that were truly rough mouthed and it was sometimes possiable to discourage without going to the extremes of “force fetch” as on the above website. Try him on some real birds and if he really is rough let me know and I’ll give you some alternative methods to try.

Hope this helps MK
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfrog View Post
I force fetch all my retreivers.
The difference between one that has been trained with the force fetch and one that has not is very clear.
With a trainer that understands the concept and technique of force fetching it certainly does not have to be any more traumatic or dramatic than any other part of a training program.

Find a dog trainer to show/help you with this part of a program, or hire one to force break your dog.


And yes a dog will retrieve without being force broke. He will also retrieve without being house broke, or obedience trained or travel savvy. Each person decides what is an acceptable level of training for their own dog.

After many years training retreivers, I have to say that those that are opposed or horrified by the "force breaking" either have no first hand experience or simply do not understand the traing.

"May the force be with you"....Obi Wan Coyote

Ps. What is your dog allowed to retrieve? Hunting dog gets bumpers birds or tennis balls only.

He nothing but bumpers and frozen grouse carcasses
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK2750 View Post
Wasn’t sure of what “force fetch” referred to so I goggled the subject and found what seems to be the methods http://www.fetchpup.com/forcefetch.htm .

Couple of things you should consider (being this is your first dog) that you may already be aware of, but worth mentioning.

Although full size your dog is still very much a baby and pups chew when playing. The labs are even more prone to silly behavior up to 3 years and a male may not reach a mature nature until 4 or 5 years.

Most labs are soft mouthed by nature so do not assume he will be rough on birds until it is proven. Mine play tug of war with the kids and chew toys to bits but have never ruffled a feather on a bird.

Try making your training sessions short (20-30 minutes) and very workman like. Nothing gets a lab more serious then a pocket full of his favorite treats. When he performs well pet him and give him a treat. No roughhousing and loud “good boys” as this will induce a playful response and a pup’s instinct is to mix play with a few playful bites.

He will soon learn to enjoy these serious sessions more then play time mostly because of the treats involved. Bird hunting is not play time for a hunting dog. It is their favorite thing to do but they are dead serious when they are doing it, not unlike any wild animal on a hunt. Your training methods should mimic this.

Get yourself a proper training dummy or better yet a few real birds and never let him play with them. Use only these for your training and always keep your sessions serious.

I’ve only trained a few dogs that were truly rough mouthed and it was sometimes possiable to discourage without going to the extremes of “force fetch” as on the above website. Try him on some real birds and if he really is rough let me know and I’ll give you some alternative methods to try.

Hope this helps MK
MK...can he tell the difference between training, and "playing" fetch(ie just throw bumper, and bring it back...throw the bumper, and bring it back...)? b/c he's got a lot more than 20-30 minutes in him, and a lot more than I can walk off with him
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:42 PM
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A dog can easily distinguish between the two. Fetch is playing, retrieving is training. They can just as easily tell the difference between fighting and wrestling. Playing ball or Frisbee is good exercise and will not ruin your dog, however training dummies and real birds should not be used to play.

Let him tear around for a bit to settle him down first. Bring him to heel and walk him for a few minutes. When you stop have him sit and give him a treat, He will become serious as soon as he realizes you have something for him. If he is not steady at heel use a lease until he is comfortable with the basics.

Give him some nice short retrieves with the dummy in a controlled environment with nothing to distract him. He will be more concerned with getting back to you and the reward then romping and playing. A half dozen or so for the first couple sessions with a reward after each, then put the training dummy away for the remainder of your outing and let him play.

Use a low tone of voice and slow deliberate body movements when training- He will sense when you’re serious and when it is time to play.

Every evening we go walking and they jump around like crazy people, snapping at each other and acting foolish in anticipation of the fun. Should I open the safe or grab a camo coat then your dealing with an entirely different animal. Very business like, nervous pacing by the door with no monkey business.

Before my little black caught on to the signs she would sometimes nip the big dog thinking it was play time when we were heading hunting. He would let out the nastiest growl (like something out of a horror movie) and she would settle right down. She is three now and takes it more seriously then he does.

Sorry, I don’t know how they know; they just do.
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:00 PM
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Thanks for the help, guys! We're moving to a new house this weekend, so I'll give some of these tips a try in a week or so once we've settled in a bit.
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