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  #31  
Old 03-05-2013, 08:11 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
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Those are actual total outfitter tag numbers not percents. I will clean it up. Sorry that was sloppy..

Que... Rhino....



More detail this time.
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  #32  
Old 03-05-2013, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
wrong!! Chances are if they took a bow allocation resident tags in the draw would go up one. Depending on the historical data in surrounding sma's. Why 8-10?
I'm going by success rates, NR are almost a 100%. Residents not so much.
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  #33  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
Attached is a letter I wrote regarding how the archery mule deer draw was imo improperly forced on resident hunters without first considering other users.

I thought some on here may like to read my take on the story. From the letter...

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Key Take Aways Based on the Proposed Wildlife Management Change – Antlered Mule Deer Archery to Draw -AESRD
1. ESRD is restricting resident harvest rates to manage antlered mule deer without first considering other groups in which some have “unlimited” quotas.
2. ESRD is using the 15% archery harvest hurdle to force resident archers into a mule deer draw on certain WMU’s but have not added other harvest groups to the “total harvest” denominator.
3. ERSD has not finalized the five year outfitter allocation process but is moving quickly to meet harvest goals by restricting resident harvest and or opportunity.
4. ESRD has not published or assembled harvest data for outfitters and landowners yet is quick to use the 25% participation GHS data to restrict resident archery harvest.

Further, 16,716 resident bowhunters hunted in mule deer in 2011 (under the general archery season). This compares to 13,454 succesful applicants in the antlered mule deer special license (- rifle season, out of 64,519 applications). This shows that there are more hunters utilizing the general bowhunting antlered mule deer opportunity than are currently successful in the resident/non-resident antlered mule deer (rifle) draw system.

Also attached is the AESRD proposal that I quote numerous times in the letter.
Again, this is my interpretation of the injustice that has lead to this proposed change.

The number of Bowhunters ESRD calculated to have hunted Mule Deer in 2011 was 8,130, not 16,716.

I question confidence levels on this number from ESRD for these reasons. ESRD is assuming that 100% of bowhunters that purchased a General Mule Deer licence actually bowhunted for Antlered Mule Deer with this tag. I highly doubt that is the case as people may not have hunted Mule deer at all, or used the tag in WMUs that do not have a draw for Antlered Mule deer. It seems to me that ESRD has chosen an unrealistic but simple method to show the highest possible number of bowhunters hunting Antlered mule deer.


From ESRD

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Licence Information
For the 2011 hunting season, there were 105,389 resident hunters (including resident youth), of which 6,928 only purchased the game bird licence which indicates there were 98,461 resident big game hunters in 2011. Of all resident big game hunters in 2011, 16,716 hunters also purchased bow hunting permits, which is 17% of big game hunters. Of the resident hunters which purchased bow hunting permits 8,130 also purchased either the Resident Mule Deer Licence (n=7,524) or the Youth Mule Deer Licence (n=606).
This indicates that in 2011, of the 16,716 resident bow hunters just under 50% (48.6%) hunted mule deer during a general archery season.
Based on hunter licence data for
2011, approximately 8.3% of resident big game hunters, hunted mule deer during an archery season under the provisions of a General Mule Deer Licence. Information on hunting licences was obtained from licence sales through Alberta RELM.
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  #34  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:09 PM
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Last year I bought a bow hunting permit and I bought a mule deer licence just in case....I didn't focus on hunting mule deer at all mostly moose and elk.

So did I hunt mule deer with the bow last year? No but I had a tag just in case....

I think the number should be derived from a survey after season and not based on tag sales....

LC
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  #35  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:12 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
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Looks like another error on my part. Sorry WB is correct that the number is 8,130 not the 16,716.
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  #36  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:31 PM
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Why should archery hunters get a general tag every year when a rifle hunter needs to wait 4-5 years for a tag in the same zone? Lets make it fair for all residents. The non residents are the ones who should have to wait there turn. Put the outfitters tags on a draw as well.
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  #37  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:37 PM
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With archery success rates compared to rifle success rates would show you the fair factor. I know where I hunt for mule deer it is pretty
Much a guarantee for rifle and maybe if youre lucky every couple of years with a bow.
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  #38  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:46 PM
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ya around here everyone thinks they are an archery hunter many many mule deer and elk get shot at outrageous distances and are not recovered so the success rate might be low but the mortality rates are high. I have seen this going on for some years now and it makes me sick to my stomach!I started bow hunting 5 years ago and I have taken only two mule bucks with the bow and never lost any! If you cant get within reasonable range then you dont have the skill to hunt with archery tackle!
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  #39  
Old 03-06-2013, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by motox208 View Post
With archery success rates compared to rifle success rates would show you the fair factor. I know where I hunt for mule deer it is pretty
Much a guarantee for rifle and maybe if youre lucky every couple of years with a bow.
you guys keep throwing the success rate down our throat. It is actually all about opportunity. Deer hunter and walking buffalo to name a few are advocats on resident hunter opportunity and equality. The should be the first one to point out that hunter opportunity would be equal if it was put on draw. The opportunity to hunt is severely lopsided if bow hunters have the opportunity to hunt mule deer every year whether they are successful or not, they still get the opportunity.

Que...deer hunter
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  #40  
Old 03-06-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
you guys keep throwing the success rate down our throat. It is actually all about opportunity. Deer hunter and walking buffalo to name a few are advocats on resident hunter opportunity and equality. The should be the first one to point out that hunter opportunity would be equal if it was put on draw. The opportunity to hunt is severely lopsided if bow hunters have the opportunity to hunt mule deer every year whether they are successful or not, they still get the opportunity.

Que...deer hunter

A greatly REDUCED opportunity for ALL Residents.



BTW APOS is still requesting no reduction in Non Resident opportunity if they are with a paid guide....
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  #41  
Old 03-06-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
A greatly REDUCED opportunity for ALL Residents.



BTW APOS is still requesting no reduction in Non Resident opportunity if they are with a paid guide....
can you answere my question in my last postor not?
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  #42  
Old 03-06-2013, 02:03 PM
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Is success rate more important than opportunity when it comes to bow hunting mule general.
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  #43  
Old 03-06-2013, 03:47 PM
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Deer Hunter , thanx for the stats , tell me if I'm reading this wrong .. 22 resident licences and 58 outfitter tags in zone 326 .. am I mistaken ? How does that figure out to 10% tags allowed for the outfitters ?
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  #44  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
Is success rate more important than opportunity when it comes to bow hunting mule general.
Perhaps the people that want the outfitters gone are just a little bit jealous of the guided / non-residents success rates. Remember if you folks just worked a little harder you could bump up your success rates too
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  #45  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
Perhaps the people that want the outfitters gone are just a little bit jealous of the guided / non-residents success rates. Remember if you folks just worked a little harder you could bump up your success rates too


I believe the percentage of people that "want the outfitters gone" would be so minute it wouldn't be worth talking about. That is not even close to the issue here. The issue is Resident Opportunity and the imbalance of Outfitter Allocations in regard to that. But you knew that....right?

Your response is beyond lame.

Thank you Deer Hunter and Walking Buffalo for all your effort in bringing these statistics forward. I would hope the outcome will be fair for both Residents and Outfitters.
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  #46  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by H380 View Post
Deer Hunter , thanx for the stats , tell me if I'm reading this wrong .. 22 resident licences and 58 outfitter tags in zone 326 .. am I mistaken ? How does that figure out to 10% tags allowed for the outfitters ?
The 2011 max allocation summary is the same for 2008-2012...





Here is the outfitter allocations for 326 for all species provided to me. And the resident/nr draw stats for 2012.

Remember that the outfitter Policy is at a max of 10%, min of 3% depending on resident demand etc... of the TOTAL HARVEST, not tag numbers. So apparently the outfitters in 326 must have a very low success rate... they need a lesson from Torkdiesel, like the rest of us

Funny how outfitters, by Policy, get 3-10% of total harvest by SMA, whereas the total harvest is made up of all users (read big number). Resident mule deer bowhunters however go on draw after they exceed 15% of the WMU harvest, whereas the total harvest in this case appears to to exclude outfitters and landowners #'s (read smaller number)...

Maybe its time to send out this big excel spreadsheet so others can view it for themselves?
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  #47  
Old 03-06-2013, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
you guys keep throwing the success rate down our throat. It is actually all about opportunity. Deer hunter and walking buffalo to name a few are advocats on resident hunter opportunity and equality. The should be the first one to point out that hunter opportunity would be equal if it was put on draw. The opportunity to hunt is severely lopsided if bow hunters have the opportunity to hunt mule deer every year whether they are successful or not, they still get the opportunity.

Que...deer hunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
A greatly REDUCED opportunity for ALL Residents.



BTW APOS is still requesting no reduction in Non Resident opportunity if they are with a paid guide....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
can you answere my question in my last postor not?
No I can't. You didn't ask a question.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
Is success rate more important than opportunity when it comes to bow hunting mule general.
? Is this a question ?

If so, Please ask again with some understandable context....
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  #48  
Old 03-06-2013, 07:45 PM
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Stop analizng it in such ways, all you need to know is its the big bad archery hunter that put this province in the position its in. Damn the bow hunter
Jealousy will get you nowhere!Too bad for you I hunt in the 200 zones and I will not have to apply for this evil draw.I will get to reduce the mule deer numbers again this year so there will be at least one that you wont be able kill with your gun-that's if ya get drawn!Good luck to ya!
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  #49  
Old 03-06-2013, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
you guys keep throwing the success rate down our throat. It is actually all about opportunity. Deer hunter and walking buffalo to name a few are advocats on resident hunter opportunity and equality. The should be the first one to point out that hunter opportunity would be equal if it was put on draw. The opportunity to hunt is severely lopsided if bow hunters have the opportunity to hunt mule deer every year whether they are successful or not, they still get the opportunity.

Que...deer hunter
If in your opinion its all about opportunity, why does a non-resident alien have the opportunity to hunt mule deer in Alberta every year, while residents have to wait for a draw?
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  #50  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:08 PM
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If in your opinion its all about opportunity, why does a non-resident alien have the opportunity to hunt mule deer in Alberta every year, while residents have to wait for a draw?
The same reason you can hunt in other provinces or states every year while residents there have to wait for a draw. Outfitters get so many tags, hunters buy tags, hunters hunt. It's been like that for a long time.

In my opion it comes down to the choices people make. You can either choose to work hard, make money and afford to hunt all the animals you want to or you can complain about not being able to for the rest of your life. This is the world we live in today, equal opportunity is only a pipe dream. Tough to hear sometimes but that's life.
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  #51  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:20 PM
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Jealousy will get you nowhere!Too bad for you I hunt in the 200 zones and I will not have to apply for this evil draw.I will get to reduce the mule deer numbers again this year so there will be at least one that you wont be able kill with your gun-that's if ya get drawn!Good luck to ya!
Lol, theres alot to being an informed and responsible user of the resources, lord knows i struggle as well. It looks like you own a bow, congratulations slim lol. I pray next time you discuss archery you will do it with a little more tact. I appologise if my post was confusing, its my wierd brand of fun. Go kill some deer, kill em all, SRD will love you for it
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  #52  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
The same reason you can hunt in other provinces or states every year while residents there have to wait for a draw. Outfitters get so many tags, hunters buy tags, hunters hunt. It's been like that for a long time.

In my opion it comes down to the choices people make. You can either choose to work hard, make money and afford to hunt all the animals you want to or you can complain about not being able to for the rest of your life. This is the world we live in today, equal opportunity is only a pipe dream. Tough to hear sometimes but that's life.
My Alberta looks a little different, hopefully for the majority of hunters as well. My choice is, my wildlife is nor for sale to the highest bidder with an outfitter as the beneficiary of our wildlife.
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  #53  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:26 PM
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My Alberta looks a little different, hopefully for the majority of hunters as well. My choice is, my wildlife is nor for sale to the highest bidder with an outfitter as the beneficiary of our wildlife.
Well everybody should have something they believe in pikergolf, I myself am a realist. Outfitters take a small piece of the pie, that's not going to change. The rest of the world revolves around money, this will too.
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  #54  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:29 PM
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Well everybody should have something they believe in pikergolf, I myself am a realist. Outfitters take a small piece of the pie, that's not going to change. The rest of the world revolves around money, this will too.
Sadly you are probably right.
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  #55  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
The same reason you can hunt in other provinces or states every year while residents there have to wait for a draw. Outfitters get so many tags, hunters buy tags, hunters hunt. It's been like that for a long time.

In my opion it comes down to the choices people make. You can either choose to work hard, make money and afford to hunt all the animals you want to or you can complain about not being able to for the rest of your life. This is the world we live in today, equal opportunity is only a pipe dream. Tough to hear sometimes but that's life.
Well, I can't hunt Mule Deer, Elk or Antelope in Saskatchewan and respect their decision to provide the opportunity to their residents first and foremost. I choose to advocate for a similar system here and that my choice.
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  #56  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:02 PM
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Well, I can't hunt Mule Deer, Elk or Antelope in Saskatchewan and respect their decision to provide the opportunity to their residents first and foremost. I choose to advocate for a similar system here and that my choice.
You can hunt ELK and Mule Deer with Native outfitters in Sask, I'm not sure about antelope but I wouldn't rule it out. And you can certainly advocate for anything you want, that is still free as far as I know.
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  #57  
Old 03-07-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MathewsArcher View Post
If in your opinion its all about opportunity, why does a non-resident alien have the opportunity to hunt mule deer in Alberta every year, while residents have to wait for a draw?
judging by your name this is going to be quite simple for me to explain. I believe by having the opportunity to go to Canadian tire every year and buy a mule buck tag and hunt said mule buck every year on a general tag is quite the opportunity that unfortunate rifle hunters did not get that luxury. If I hear the word success rate again I'm going to lose it. It is all about opportunity to hunt, not whether your talented enough to actually kill something with your bow or not. You choose to hunt with that weapon so deal with the equality that will soon present its self. It is about time that residents are all on the same playing field.


Que..non resident attack!!
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  #58  
Old 03-07-2013, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhino81 View Post
judging by your name this is going to be quite simple for me to explain. I believe by having the opportunity to go to Canadian tire every year and buy a mule buck tag and hunt said mule buck every year on a general tag is quite the opportunity that unfortunate rifle hunters did not get that luxury. If I hear the word success rate again I'm going to lose it. It is all about opportunity to hunt, not whether your talented enough to actually kill something with your bow or not. You choose to hunt with that weapon so deal with the equality that will soon present its self. It is about time that residents are all on the same playing field.


Que..non resident attack!!
Success rate, success rate, success rate......
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  #59  
Old 03-07-2013, 02:28 PM
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It is about time that residents are all on the same playing field.
I agree the residents should not play second fiddle to outfitters and non-residents....its what we have said all along

LC
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  #60  
Old 03-07-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
I agree the residents should not play second fiddle to outfitters and non-residents....its what we have said all along

LC
you misunderstand. But I'm sure you will interprut it which ever way you want.
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