Whitetail numbers low? - Page 2

6tmile · #31 10-31-2013, 10:01 AM

In 337 and 338 numbers are still good. Sure there is lots of predators, but look at the fall we had. Most crops were taken of in record time due to great harvest conditions. No crops laying in the fields, and lots of food still in the bush. They are there, but in no rush to come out into the open to feed.

Drewski Canuck · #32 10-31-2013, 10:05 AM

The LACK OF GLOBAL WARMING means usual hard Alberta Winters of 3 - 4 feet of snow with long cold stretches, which has been the pattern for the last 3 years. A lack of Chinooks also hurts, as the snow pack stays high.

The string of drought years meant that we had mild winters with little snow, and exploding deer numbers. Year to year survival meant lots of big bucks as well.

Only solution is we burn more coal.

Drewski

dmcbride · #33 10-31-2013, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohninAB

Disagree with that statement. Fawns do not automatically die because mommy is gone.

I would agree with that in the farm lands, but in the big bush I don't think they have much of a chance. Some survive I'm sure, but not many.

gman1978 · #34 10-31-2013, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

kinda the west central to south west portions of the province are about the only areas unaffected by the last few brutal winters. i know i spent many many hours travelling through the east central part of the province over the last year, and why oh why there are the tag numbers there are there is a mystery. oh wait....no it isnt....a certain bio is off their freakin nut!!!!!

Bambi, Its really sad to see the state of the Deer herd in the east. Its a shame, I know the winters of 2010 and 2012 were a disaster but the high tag numbers over the last five years has been a low down dirty shame. People were traveling from all over the province to hunt the extended seasons, it was kind of the "get after it while we can" mentality. The mule herds are a shadow of what they used to be and the whitetails are thinned right out. If anybody tells you different they don't have a clue. I have seen the havoc the winters caused the deer herds first hand. It was ugly. The thing that bothers me the most is when somebody tells me that there are too many deer " didn't you see them all in the hay stack last winter" not realizing the miles the deer traveled to group up.

jawa · #35 10-31-2013, 10:16 AM

lots of deer in farm land not too many in bush 349 white tail and mulies took a beating should shut down doe season or go back to two week season in November shoot a doe with fawns in sept in the bush and fawns are dead meat for preaditors if you like deer meat its nice to be able too shoot does but some discretion has to be used fish and feathers dosnt not everything and by the time they react and make changes takes years longer too correct mistakes. a fawn needs his mom the first winter to learn how to survive chances of a bush fawn surviving the winter in the bush are greatly reduced when u shoot mom deep snow and forget it dead deer in the farm land unlees taken down by cyotes they generally fare pretty well

Okotokian · #36 10-31-2013, 10:22 AM

Not sure how it will be in my 312 and 310 haunts as I've tried to stay away from them the last few months, but I hunt 132 (prairie SW of Calgary)fairly hard for birds and waterfowl and have seen more whitetails than I've ever noticed before. Never hunted big game in that WMU though. May have to give it a try.

My farmers have said they have seen surprising numbers of elk moving through as well, earlier. They thought it flood-related. Unfortunately, no elk hunting in that WMU. Darn!

MK2750 · #37 10-31-2013, 10:23 AM

A warm September/October means lots of lush foliage for browsing in the bush. As much as they like certain crops, I believe they would rather browse in thick bush if possible. If this little cold snap had come a month or so ago I think we would be seeing more out and about in the fields.

Numbers seem pretty normal around here but the deer are spread out in pairs and singles. I have seen some impressive antler growth over the summer so there should be at least some big bucks taken in these parts.

Having said that, I was looking forward to hunting an area that I discovered late last season and it has literally gone to the dogs. I am hoping it is primarily a wintering ground as the place was tracked up like a farm yard last November. In three days of scouting I found nothing of interest except dog and kitty sign.

JohninAB · #38 10-31-2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I would agree with that in the farm lands, but in the big bush I don't think they have much of a chance. Some survive I'm sure, but not many.

Fawn survival depends on habitat quality, not if the doe is around unless you are shooting the doe early in the summer then yes, fawn is in trouble. After 2 months or so, a fawn is weaned so loss of the doe is not a factor in its survival. By fall time, unless the fawn was born late and still sporting its spots, then they are quite capable of surviving on their own.

ishootbambi · #39 10-31-2013, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gman1978

The thing that bothers me the most is when somebody tells me that there are too many deer " didn't you see them all in the hay stack last winter" not realizing the miles the deer traveled to group up.

dont have to tell me. i travel hwy 13 way too much. during the winter yarding, it WAS normal to see easily 1000 to 1500 deer just off the road between provost and hardisty. this last winter....might have been 200 total. for someone that doesnt understand...those 200 might look like a lot of deer.

whats worse is that for someoe in edmonton is that its 200 too many.....

PolarBearSouth · #40 10-31-2013, 11:21 AM

I found 349 numbers to be very strong but 511 numbers were almost non-existent. Bears were inversely proportional to those numbers. Took a large 4x4 last week in 349 and saw many other young bucks. Deer were coming out of the woodwork, literally.

Lefty-Canuck · #41 10-31-2013, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

dont have to tell me. i travel hwy 13 way too much. during the winter yarding, it WAS normal to see easily 1000 to 1500 deer just off the road between provost and hardisty. this last winter....might have been 200 total. for someone that doesnt understand...those 200 might look like a lot of deer.

whats worse is that for someoe in edmonton is that its 200 too many.....

I can tell you the east hwy 13/ hwy 14 corridor is pretty bleak at best....with the cull, tag number increase, 2x for doe tags, etc...etc...

People got while the getting was good and now it's hardly worth the trip...

LC

Full Curl Earl · #42 10-31-2013, 11:43 AM

Fawn needs a doe first winter to learn how to be a deer, conserving energy in cold snaps, alternate food sources, predator evasion techniques, etc. sure hope most if not all can agree that killing anything with offspring of the year is a poor practice.

BobMarliesDonkey · #43 10-31-2013, 11:50 AM

I've seen a fair amount of deer - not many bucks but plenty of does with fawns. For someone with the little experience I have to run across as many deer as I have, I figured the numbers where pretty good, but then again I have no frame of reference to compare it too.

Does with fawns can't be a bad thing for the numbers - and lots of guys I've been talking to noticed the same thing.

At least two other hunters I know who try to take a dry doe early in the season for the freezer said they didn't take a shot since every doe they ran across had a youngster or two in toe - my experience jives with this as well.

Full Curl Earl · #44 10-31-2013, 11:51 AM

I sure feel for ya Lefty, and I don't think your situation over there will be good for a long time unfortunately. Glad I never partook in that clown show.

Sledhead71 · #45 10-31-2013, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Fawn needs a doe first winter to learn how to be a deer, conserving energy in cold snaps, alternate food sources, predator evasion techniques, etc. sure hope most if not all can agree that killing anything with offspring of the year is a poor practice.

Not to derail, but letting the wind out of momma this time of the year does not have a real big impact on the survival rate of the fawns.

As we all witness, deer will herd up in the winter months and these fawns will adapt to their environment..

borchy · #46 10-31-2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

dont have to tell me. i travel hwy 13 way too much. during the winter yarding, it WAS normal to see easily 1000 to 1500 deer just off the road between provost and hardisty. this last winter....might have been 200 total. for someone that doesnt understand...those 200 might look like a lot of deer.

whats worse is that for someoe in edmonton is that its 200 too many.....

whats worse is that for someoe in edmonton is that its 200 too many.....

WOW. Not sure if I want to respond to that or not.

dmcbride · #47 10-31-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Not to derail, but letting the wind out of momma this time of the year does not have a real big impact on the survival rate of the fawns.

As we all witness, deer will herd up in the winter months and these fawns will adapt to their environment..

I've never seen deer yard up in big bush. As I said in previous post, fawns in farmland have a chance, But big bush they do not.

Sledhead71 · #48 10-31-2013, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I've never seen deer yard up in big bush. As I said in previous post, fawns in farmland have a chance, But big bush they do not.

Studies have concluded that 80 % of fawns die in the first 30 days..

Mortality rates of orphan fawns this time of the year, both in big woods and open farm land, is near the same and does not play a huge role in the balance of the herd.

After 8 weeks old, mortality rates stabilize across the board.

Okotokian · #49 10-31-2013, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

dont have to tell me. i travel hwy 13 way too much. during the winter yarding, it WAS normal to see easily 1000 to 1500 deer just off the road between provost and hardisty. this last winter....might have been 200 total.

However, if memory serves, last winter was pretty mild, at least in Southern Alberta, no? I don't recall agonizingly long stretches of -35 or hugely deep snow. Am I going senile? LOL

J-Driver · #50 10-31-2013, 12:41 PM

236,238, and 254 all seem to have low numbers. Not only scouting, but on cams, deer sign, etc. around here was a rough winter, found alot of winter killed animals shed hunting this spring, and I didn't put a lot of miles on. Combination of lots of snow, and lots of prolonged cold periods. Hasn't seemed too affect the moose or elk population though

chinchaga · #51 10-31-2013, 12:57 PM

80% of the fawns die within the first 30 days?

Strong disagreement here on that statement.

Fawns that have their mothers killed in Sept./Oct will have a very tough time surviving their first winter. There was still much their moms had to teach them.

Lush foilage in the bush in Oct.? More strong disagreement here.

The deer numbers are greatly reduced across the province other than a few pockets. Supplemental tags need not be issued.

Sledhead71 · #52 10-31-2013, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinchaga

80% of the fawns die within the first 30 days?

Strong disagreement here on that statement.

Fawns that have their mothers killed in Sept./Oct will have a very tough time surviving their first winter. There was still much their moms had to teach them.

Lush foilage in the bush in Oct.? More strong disagreement here.

The deer numbers are greatly reduced across the province other than a few pockets. Supplemental tags need not be issued.

There is plenty of reading material out there to understand the life cycles of the whitetail deer..

Best of luck all...

Jadham · #53 10-31-2013, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinchaga

80% of the fawns die within the first 30 days?

Strong disagreement here on that statement.

Fawns that have their mothers killed in Sept./Oct will have a very tough time surviving their first winter. There was still much their moms had to teach them.

Lush foilage in the bush in Oct.? More strong disagreement here.

The deer numbers are greatly reduced across the province other than a few pockets. Supplemental tags need not be issued.

It would be useful if someone could post a study(ies) to support their position.

chinchaga · #54 10-31-2013, 01:38 PM

I live in a remote area. Large bush on three sides of me. Some farmland around, mostly mine. I observe whitetails everyday, every season. Trail cams year round, personal observations of all wildlife here including the wolves and coyotes and furbearers.
I professionally conduct Wildlife Inventory Studies for Industry to present to SRD, also conduct Wildlife Mitigation Studies in several locations throughout several provinces.
I have read studies conducted by erstwhile well meaning individuals that do not leave the University and who thrive on the computer models generated by other well meaning individuals, these studies should never see the light of day and they should never be quoted by those who have not read the methodology of those studies. First hand investigation and observation with boots on the ground tactics trump computer models any day of the week.
Anyone remember the infamous Grizzly Bear study conducted a few years back. What was their count, one Grizzly in the Chinchaga River drainage, three bears in the Willmore, etc. etc.etc.
Don't believe the 80% mortality as a indicator of the condition of the whitetail range across whitetail habitat. It just ain't true.

Gboe8 · #55 10-31-2013, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohninAB

Disagree with that statement. Fawns do not automatically die because mommy is gone.

X2

Jadham · #56 10-31-2013, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chinchaga

I live in a remote area. Large bush on three sides of me. Some farmland around, mostly mine. I observe whitetails everyday, every season. Trail cams year round, personal observations of all wildlife here including the wolves and coyotes and furbearers.
I professionally conduct Wildlife Inventory Studies for Industry to present to SRD, also conduct Wildlife Mitigation Studies in several locations throughout several provinces.
I have read studies conducted by erstwhile well meaning individuals that do not leave the University and who thrive on the computer models generated by other well meaning individuals, these studies should never see the light of day and they should never be quoted by those who have not read the methodology of those studies. First hand investigation and observation with boots on the ground tactics trump computer models any day of the week.
Anyone remember the infamous Grizzly Bear study conducted a few years back. What was their count, one Grizzly in the Chinchaga River drainage, three bears in the Willmore, etc. etc.etc.
Don't believe the 80% mortality as a indicator of the condition of the whitetail range across whitetail habitat. It just ain't true.

You have some valid points and a lot of bs as well.

Some examples of objective data that starts answering my previous request:

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...n_survival_pdf

http://m.jsonline.com/sports/outdoor...ntinue_reading

dmcbride · #57 10-31-2013, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jadham

You have some valid points and a lot of bs as well.

Some examples of objective data that starts answering my previous request:

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal...n_survival_pdf

http://m.jsonline.com/sports/outdoor...ntinue_reading

I don't think studies done in the states has anything to do with Alberta deer. Totally different climate.

Lefty-Canuck · #58 10-31-2013, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I don't think studies done in the states has anything to do with Alberta deer. Totally different climate.

Climate, feed, predators, list goes on....

LC

Jadham · #59 10-31-2013, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Climate, feed, predators, list goes on....

LC

Feel free to add some Canadian studies. Most of the ones I found are from the 70s...

Unless someone can find some recent Canadian stuff though won't be much to talk about.

iliketrout · #60 10-31-2013, 02:08 PM

In my experiences west of RMH, the deer numbers appear to be steady where I hunt. I hunt the same WMU, 2 completely different parts of the zone though. In one part of the zone, I noticed there were fewer deer seen than I am accustomed to in that zone. However, in the other area, there were more deer seen than ever before (22 in 45 mins one night) and I saw quite a few bucks on top of the does and fawns. Never saw a buck that I was willing to take, but I was able to be very selective on does and shot one that was completely alone out in the middle of a pipeline that I was sitting and watching. At one point I saw 2 does with 5 fawns between them, indicating to me that fawn survival was very high this year.

So if I had stuck to the first zone, I could say the numbers were hit hard.

If I had hunted the 2nd zone only, I could say the numbers were very strong.

Long story short I haven't noticed a difference in deer numbers, just a difference in where I found them.