|
02-18-2018, 10:04 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,420
|
|
Empty Cartridge forensics: Stanley Case
I'm sure we had all heard about the claimed misfire of the Tokarev as it applied to Gerald Stanley's defense but I had not seen much in the way of the forensic evidence featured in any news articles. Then I looked it up following a friend noting the bulged 'bullet' (his term) and I was quite surprised by how definitive the photos that showed up were. Below are three photos that turned up in a Google search for photos of the cartridge, all of these photos were attached to news articles about the case. We can see in the close up of the spent casing in the dash vent that there is a bulge I the case that is not uniform, and in addition to that, the thing is not even a bottleneck case anymore! The cartridge was clearly fired when the weapon was not fully in battery. A cartridge that was fully seated in a chamber could not possibly wind up looking like that. I am surprised that this does not have more media attention given to it, but then again most of the people reporting on it would not know what they are looking at to comprehend its significance. My post here is not to hash up the politics of the case, its merely to note that this evidence does support his claim that the firearm misfired/hang fired, despite the rarity of such events (especially when tied to a death).
Keep it about the gun and the ammo people, this one isn't about the politics save perhaps for how something so incontrovertible as this physical evidence is can be virtually ignored/ practically swept under the rug.
A better view of the bottleneck ammunition and some spent cartridge cases. The difference is staggering.
__________________
"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
|
02-18-2018, 10:21 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lloydminster
Posts: 2,223
|
|
Looks more like a brass case to me then a lacquered steel case
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
__________________
|
02-18-2018, 10:40 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: On the border in Lloydminster
Posts: 8,374
|
|
A better view
Something malfunctioned and nobody has come up with an explanation
|
02-18-2018, 10:48 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by bat119
Something malfunctioned and nobody has come up with an explanation
|
Looks to me that it was only partially chambered when it fired, which would tend to support Stanley. Also, the bottle neck is gone. A firing pin wouldn't be able to ignite it at that point, so the hang fire theory stands. Doesn't seem like rocket science. Betting there was poor powder combustion as well.
Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
Last edited by Grizzly Adams; 02-18-2018 at 10:54 AM.
|
02-18-2018, 10:50 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lloydminster
Posts: 2,223
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by bat119
Something malfunctioned and nobody has come up with an explanation
|
That one definitely appears to be surplus ammo. Maybe fired out of battery? “Cheap” surplus gun and “cheap” surplus ammo, it may be possible.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
__________________
|
02-18-2018, 10:56 AM
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Peace River, BC
Posts: 630
|
|
Firing pins are also longer than average, I believe to guarantee a discharge in situations where you've pulled your sidearm (war).
They seem to be the AK47 of the pistol world (during the time).
Like I mentioned in another thread, I've had mine fire when I slammed a mag in when the slide was back. Coupled with no safety, I'm not at all surprised this happened.
|
02-18-2018, 10:41 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,420
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCTHEMI
Looks more like a brass case to me then a lacquered steel case
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
|
Its not uncommon to have more than one variety of ammunition for ones firearms.... Its the spent cartridges shape that is the prominent detail.
The photo that Bat119 shared came up in my search but I excluded it due to it not having an evidence marker adjacent it or anything in the photo correlating it to the case. The other pics were taken in the Ford Escape so they would be hard to refute.
__________________
"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
|
02-18-2018, 10:47 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Lloydminster
Posts: 2,223
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
Its not uncommon to have more than one variety of ammunition for ones firearms.... Its the spent cartridges shape that is the prominent detail.
|
I realize that. But 7.62X25 is most commonly military surplus only. Something funny definitely happened though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
__________________
|
02-18-2018, 10:59 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Camrose county
Posts: 3,499
|
|
In the stuff that I read In different articles, it would have you believe that cartridge was out of battery and caused HANGFIRE, and it also means that the bullet would have had far less power and trajectory ,one guy stated somewhere that hed seen bullets going of when they were accidentaly dropped on rough surfaces, but somewhat harmless. Also a police officer who testified at the trial about HANGFIRE said that he could make this HANGFIRE occur again,by somehow making the primer go off so many seconds before the bullet fires which would be somewhat like firing of one of the old time muskets,but the wait would have been longer in this case.
__________________
If people concentrated on the really important things in life,there would be a shortage of fishing poles.Doug larson. Theres a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. Steven Wright.
|
02-18-2018, 10:57 AM
|
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 4,130
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
.
Keep it about the gun and the ammo people, this one isn't about the politics save perhaps for how something so incontrovertible as this physical evidence is can be virtually ignored/ practically swept under the rug.
|
Ignored??? The reason he was acquitted was largely due to the fact that the deformed brass was the result of a hangfire, was it not.
|
02-18-2018, 11:02 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Camrose county
Posts: 3,499
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobalong
Ignored??? The reason he was acquitted was largely due to the fact that the deformed brass was the result of a hangfire, was it not.
|
Yes this was a huge factor.
__________________
If people concentrated on the really important things in life,there would be a shortage of fishing poles.Doug larson. Theres a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. Steven Wright.
|
02-18-2018, 11:04 AM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 19,420
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobalong
Ignored??? The reason he was acquitted was largely due to the fact that the deformed brass was the result of a hangfire, was it not.
|
I meant by the media, not the courts. The media had too much to benefit by focusing on all of the other political spin on the case, it would be counterproductive to quell all that indignation by reporting facts that would only serve to suppress the victimization narrative.
Cliffs notes: the bulk of the press dropped the ball. Whether on purpose or by incompetence, the outcome was the same with masses of people needlessly enraged.
__________________
"The trouble with people idiot-proofing things, is the resulting evolution of the idiot." Me
Last edited by CaberTosser; 02-18-2018 at 11:28 AM.
|
02-18-2018, 11:43 AM
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Millet
Posts: 865
|
|
http://panow.com/article/737563/anat...-stanley-trial
More on the ammo being used. Crown expert had a dud and a blown out case when testing the ammo. Faulty ammo. Be nice to know how many were fired.
Too bad that have to go to the local papers in Saskatchewan to get more of the truth. No big media outlets reported on the ammo testing.
|
02-18-2018, 01:25 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,911
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
I meant by the media, not the courts. The media had too much to benefit by focusing on all of the other political spin on the case, it would be counterproductive to quell all that indignation by reporting facts that would only serve to suppress the victimization narrative.
Cliffs notes: the bulk of the press dropped the ball. Whether on purpose or by incompetence, the outcome was the same with masses of people needlessly enraged.
|
The press have never really had much interest in the truth.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
|
02-18-2018, 01:52 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,337
|
|
Czech SMG ammo
Looks like the same stuff I have.Returned two crates to Milarm as it was so corroded it would misfire and even hangfire.Several years back.
|
02-18-2018, 02:49 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,380
|
|
The RCMP Firearms Examiner says that he could not duplicate the firing out of battery or the hang fire. Therfore could not explain how the pistol fired or the casing came to be in the condition it is in.
There is a Retired RCMP Firearms Forensic examiner that lives in Edmonton that says he thinks he knows what happened, once he gets access to the firearm he can reproduce it.
Some times certain groups want the truth and sometimes there is a agenda behind a persons actions.
The RCMP examiner had a tough time making a SKS fire full automatic (slam fire) Which has to do with a case in Ontario where a owner turned their SKS into the Police after it fired in full auto not wanting to get in trouble. It was stated that this owner did not properly or fully clean their firearm prior to use.
It was possible that the slam fire/ full auto would have been caused by the firing pin being stuck due to storage grease used, that was not cleaned out of the bolt carrier.
Others have experiance this under similar circumstances. Yet the Expert had failed to be able to reproduce this after carefully examining the firearm.
So in the Stanely case It is easily to see that the round fired out of battery. The round was not fully seated in the chamber. Even a amateur with a little bit of knowledge could understand the round fired partially out side of the chamber. How the expert could not explain this makes me scratch my head.
The above info was what I have read from all he news articles.
The reasons why it fired out of battery.
1 hang fire.
2 slam fire out of battery
3 fraggles
|
02-18-2018, 07:08 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,713
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
I meant by the media, not the courts. The media had too much to benefit by focusing on all of the other political spin on the case, it would be counterproductive to quell all that indignation by reporting facts that would only serve to suppress the victimization narrative.
Cliffs notes: the bulk of the press dropped the ball. Whether on purpose or by incompetence, the outcome was the same with masses of people needlessly enraged.
|
You're right, absolutely mishandled by the media. This kind of event is what they live for so they'd never allow the facts to interfere with a good story
|
02-18-2018, 07:37 PM
|
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,541
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarychef
You're right, absolutely mishandled by the media. This kind of event is what they live for so they'd never allow the facts to interfere with a good story
|
Of course they dropped the ball. When in the last 40 years have you not seen them intentionally not report all the facts, especially when it concerns firearms. And to report all the facts would in fact cool the story rather quickly as well as keep those people who are on the fence about firearms in this country on that fence.
__________________
I hunt what I eat, I eat what I hunt
|
02-18-2018, 07:59 PM
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 304
|
|
The progressives, media and the special interest groups know the real facts of what happened however it doesn’t fit their narrative of racism that’s why it’s not in the media and being sweeped under the rug.
None of the so called journalists that I have listened to have said anything other than it was an old white guy who murdered a young Indigenous man out for a drive with friends who only needed help and was found not guilty by an all white jury.
Same narrative that the clown and company are saying as well. The progressives motto “ never let a good crisis go to waste”
My son has three Tokarev’s and I have never liked shooting them as they don’t fit my hand. They were a cheaply made Soviet pistol designed to shoot cheap ammo like all of the commie guns.
Last time I shot one of them something very similar happened only the slide closed before the cartridge fired. That was the last time I’ve ever shot them and they have been in his safe since.
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:56 AM.
|