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  #121  
Old 01-02-2022, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Demonical View Post
Wow, my stuff sure doesn't look like your guys...


"Rode hard and put away wet"...
A little saddle soap and mink oil goes a long way to keeping sheaths and cases looking brand new .
Cat
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  #122  
Old 01-02-2022, 04:42 PM
32-40win 32-40win is offline
 
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Been using a in-house built custom 3" drop point I got at Target Knives and Survival in Cgy about 40 yrs ago, has worked well for me, split a few big bones with it. Also picked a couple at stuff like RMEF and NWTF conventions which I have no issues with, both 4" drop points, forget who made them, both custom jobs. Still keep a big Olfa knife in the processing box, they are handy at times, the carpet blades work well on them. Also have a Browning folder that has been really good for about 30 yrs, still holds an edge really well.
The one knife I have that I despise is a Kershaw Alaskan Blade Trader, the handle will not keep a blade in it, if you twist it a bit, it'll pop. They even sent me 2 spare handles, all do it.
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  #123  
Old 01-02-2022, 04:46 PM
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rem338win rem338win is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MK2750 View Post
I have no interest in arguing with you. You come on here and start bad mouthing a successful Canadian company that has been hand crafting quality knifes for half a century. You could have just made a suggestion and gave your opinion but instead you try to belittle another's opinion with nonsense or as you call it responding to the context of yours specifically. That is the definition of wanting to argue.
Sure. I didn't bad mouth a thing, just pointed out some facts for people to do what they will with. I recall that being a suggestion. Just a quick look at the thrashing I gave out:

Quote:
Knives like the classic Buck and Grohmann use older, lower quality steels that have been heat treated exceptionally well. The classic designs are generally great for their purpose and they're easy to sharpen so many folks like them. However, they do not hold an edge as well as most modern steels and not even close to the newer super steels.
I really took the torch to them.

Calling what I said "nonsense" is funny given many more have corrected your posts yet you're the only one with their feelings hurt toward mine.

Common trend; you might want to start taking the Internet less seriously.
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  #124  
Old 01-02-2022, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
Sure. I didn't bad mouth a thing, just pointed out some facts for people to do what they will with. I recall that being a suggestion. Just a quick look at the thrashing I gave out:



I really took the torch to them.

Calling what I said "nonsense" is funny given many more have corrected your posts yet you're the only one with their feelings hurt toward mine.

Common trend; you might want to start taking the Internet less seriously.
Actually you went on to say that some dude in Vancouver makes knives that are not up to your standards but will hold an edge 5 times longer than a carbon Grohmann or classic Buck.

Like I said, absolute nonsense and no one else made such statements.
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  #125  
Old 01-02-2022, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
Sure. I didn't bad mouth a thing, just pointed out some facts for people to do what they will with. I recall that being a suggestion. Just a quick look at the thrashing I gave out:



I really took the torch to them.

Calling what I said "nonsense" is funny given many more have corrected your posts yet you're the only one with their feelings hurt toward mine.

Common trend; you might want to start taking the Internet less seriously.
A speaker of truth has no friends.
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  #126  
Old 01-02-2022, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dean2 View Post
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru.../73010-clint-c

In case anyone wnats to get hold of him - Clint Chisan profile on CGN. Goes by user name clint c

Have seen lots of pictures of his work, never owned one of his knives, but read lots of great things about them.
He makes very nice looking stuff, thanks for the link.
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  #127  
Old 01-02-2022, 06:09 PM
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Camofire has a bunch of knives on sale today.
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  #128  
Old 01-02-2022, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MK2750 View Post
Actually you went on to say that some dude in Vancouver makes knives that are not up to your standards but will hold an edge 5 times longer than a carbon Grohmann or classic Buck.

Like I said, absolute nonsense and no one else made such statements.
You've selective comprehension and already shown you lack what's required to call something nonsense in this case. If you're going to attempt to gaslight people get better at it, because your attempts are trollish at best.

The issue is, you were left behind in the conversation long ago and ego, pride or both have you twisted up now. Anyone with rudimentary metallurgical basics and a smitten of experience would've known its absolute nonsense to say in 2022 that 440c is the standard for stainless. On top of that, when you had no clue which carbon Grohmann uses, it was pretty hard to state nonsense when speaking to comparative wear resistance and edge retention.

Northern Arms isn't any different today than Grohmann was in their beginnings. They use material and processes that make a great product at a great price. Thanks for catching up, but I'd hope things progressed over a couple decades.

Its folks like this that have caused many of the good ones to leave this site and the rest of us lose the passing of knowledge through discussion. It's a shame.
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  #129  
Old 01-02-2022, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
The original question was for skinning, and I like my Grohmanns for that, but I do 't carry them in the field as a rule for field dressing and gutting .
I cry several several knives for that, A Puma folder has been with me sincex1992.
I also carry a heavier Marttinni belt knife , a hatchet , and myeatherman is always on my belt .
Cat
You have a picture of that "old" Puma? Is it the clip point model from back then, because they had a look similar to the Buck 110 just bit classier I enjoyed.
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  #130  
Old 01-02-2022, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Demonical View Post
Wow, my stuff sure doesn't look like your guys...


"Rode hard and put away wet"...
The brown leather set in the middle, is that a saw set? Looks similar to one I bought and used 20 years ago and it was great. Lost it in a wreck on some muskeg near Conklin. I can't recall the brand....
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  #131  
Old 01-02-2022, 08:30 PM
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Wyoming
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  #132  
Old 01-02-2022, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
Northern Arms isn't any different today than Grohmann was in their beginnings. They use material and processes that make a great product at a great price. Thanks for catching up, but I'd hope things progressed over a couple decades.
Maybe in 50 years or so your argument will make sense.
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  #133  
Old 01-02-2022, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
You have a picture of that "old" Puma? Is it the clip point model from back then, because they had a look similar to the Buck 110 just bit classier I enjoyed.
If you look at post #68, it is the folder in the lower left of the pic.
I have had it since 1992 but my father bought it in Germany in 1966
It also has a cork screw on the other side as well as the saw, drop point, gutting blade and bird hook .
The chamois case has a metal tab on the end for opening the blades during cold weather with slippery hands.
I love that knife!
Cat
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  #134  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jungleboy View Post
If you can find one of these old Kershaws ,they are a great knife and really hold an edge. I have had this for 30+ yrs and I think it was over $100 back then.

[IMG][/IMG]

This is my go to, but hard to find these days . the new ones are made in China this one is 40 yrs old now. I had a shoemaker sew the top cover onto the sheath because the knife kept falling out.

[IMG][/IMG]

Another oldy goldey The Uncle henry LB7 it is a big folder at 5" closed and 8.5" opened. I have never used this one.
[IMG][/IMG]
I had one of those Kershaws back when a Kershaw was good quality.
It did hold and edge but it never did fit my hand good with those grooves in grip.
Only paid $40 for it so after a few years I gave it away.
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  #135  
Old 01-03-2022, 01:12 AM
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This is my go to, but hard to find these days . the new ones are made in China this one is 40 yrs old now. I had a shoemaker sew the top cover onto the sheath because the knife kept falling out.

[IMG][/IMG]

I've got one of the original Schrade Sharpfingers. That was before the company went under and they made outstanding products. Mine is still in the original box and wrapper. I never picked up an original LB7 though, I should have.

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  #136  
Old 01-03-2022, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rem338win View Post
The brown leather set in the middle, is that a saw set? Looks similar to one I bought and used 20 years ago and it was great. Lost it in a wreck on some muskeg near Conklin. I can't recall the brand....

Yes that's about a 30year old Wyoming Saw. Great piece of kit... comes with a wood saw blade and meat saw blade.


As to the comment about saddle soap and mink oil(I think it was?), I'm a hunter. Not much concerned that my stuff is used (hard) and (is well) worn.
It doesn't affect the function.
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  #137  
Old 01-03-2022, 02:24 AM
fishnguy fishnguy is online now
 
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Personally, I never understood folders for hunting. Not that they arenít usable (many are great), I just think fixed blades are more suitable for the task. Even for ease of cleaning, if nothing else. (Just in case to clarify, I am not knocking on the guys using folders because, really, to each their own, etc)

A couple (I think?) of years ago, I wanted to buy one of the Havalon knives, ironically, and created a thread here asking which one. I ended up buying Outdoors Edge Swingblade. I think CNP was the only one who suggested that knife in this thread (in my thread, I think someone mentioned it after I bought it, feel like it was elkhunter, but not sure). I will be the second to suggest it. I bought the set that comes with the knife and a saw that looks like this: https://www.amazon.com/SwingBlade-Pa.../dp/B003SZ2J7G.

The reason I bought the set was because I happened to run into a clearance or whatever sale where the set cost as much as the knife alone everywhere else on sale. I also thought ďWouldnít it be great to have a saw in the same sheath on the belt as the knife?Ē Of course it would be! Unfortunately, this isnít the case with this particular saw because it sucks to the point that it is almost useless for anything but very small tasks, like quickly sawing off a tail if you do not want to fiddle with a knife. On the other hand, a guy shouldnít really need much more if going gutless. Last year I shot the elk few minutes before lights out and it was going to stay in the valley till the next morning, so I had to gut it. Man, did I have hard times and was swearing lots sawing through the pelvic bone (I know there are other ways to deal with it). Anyway, the point is that the saw sucks and I wouldnít pay extra for it. It is extremely uncomfortable, hurts your fingers holding it, etc. Though I did use it the next day again to cut through the ribs (I took the rib cage out whole from one side), and while uncomfortable and a bit of ďpainĒ, it did the job.

Anyway, the Swingblade is great. The steel, I believe, is aus-8, but, in my opinion, it is sufficient for a hunting knife if you are careful. By careful I mean you know what you are doing and know where to cut in order to avoid the bone within reason. I gutted that elk last year, washed the knife at home, then used it the next morning to skin it and chop it apart. The edge held just fine. I sharpened it after, but didnít have to, really, if I had to use it again right away.

Like tirebob said, every knife has a purpose and by getting ďbetterĒ steel one gives up something else (ease of sharpening being the most obvious, ďtoughnessĒ is another). I donít like having a knife for this and a knife for that. I definitely prefer a knife that can do it all (I donít care about capes though, but do have an old solid scalpel if needed) and would very much rather skin and break an animal with one knife, regardless of the weather. I think that swingblade meets that very middle, including the price ($69 on sale, I believe).

I have a few knives, including a couple of old Puma, a couple of older and newer Buck, a couple of Japanese brands, a Gerber, a couple of newer and older Grohamnn, and a few others. Used to have many more but I sold them all because I lost interest (almost, lol). The last one I used before the Swingblade was Benchmade Hunt Mountain Skinner and it was really great. It was given to me as a gift, but it mysteriously disappeared. I know sns likes ďsoulĒ in his rifles, this Benchmade had some, I would think. I know where to buy one for just $10 more (or 5% increase in the budget), lol, to account for GST and shipping.

This year, I field-chopped a deer with a 10-dollar folder because I forgot my knife at home and it also worked great, lol. Skinned the quarters at home with the Swingblade though. I also used an Olfa, yes a utility knife with exchangeable blades, to skin and take apart a moose and it worked like a charm too (of course I wouldnít use on a hide I wanted to keep).

I do understand having a nice knife vs having anything that would do the job (in many cases just as well). I used to have quite a collection of knives. Lately I lean towards the latter, something that would do the job just as well. I have been thinking about that Benchmade thoughÖ
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  #138  
Old 01-03-2022, 02:42 AM
fishnguy fishnguy is online now
 
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Originally Posted by jungleboy View Post
This is my go to, but hard to find these days . the new ones are made in China this one is 40 yrs old now. I had a shoemaker sew the top cover onto the sheath because the knife kept falling out.

[IMG][/IMG]
That one has definitely seen some use, lol. I used to have one that had been used once or twice, never sharpened. Sold it. Last year I bought one of the new ones just because it was on clearance for ten bucks. Complete garbage that isnít worth ten bucks I paid for it. The sheath was nice and tight though, lol.
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  #139  
Old 01-03-2022, 02:57 AM
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The last one I used before the Swingblade was Benchmade Hunt Mountain Skinner and it was really great. It was given to me as a gift, but it mysteriously disappeared. I know sns likes ďsoulĒ in his rifles, this Benchmade had some, I would think. I know where to buy one for just $10 more (or 5% increase in the budget), lol, to account for GST and shipping.
This is the knife, except the one I lost had a wood handle and a leather sheath: https://www.cabelas.ca/product/14248...ed-blade-knife; there is one with a shorter blade (maybe better for skinning?) that is a bit cheaper and fits into $200 budget; there is also one with a hook, that is a bit more expensive.
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  #140  
Old 01-03-2022, 03:53 AM
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Itís a pity most if not all of you havenít experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. From the five pages Iíve read, if we were discussing spotting scopes you would be somewhere between a 1970ís bushnell spacemaster and a tasco. Some would be arguing thereís no way modern alpha glass could be any better. If you were discussing race cars you would be taking about mini vans. If we were talking fish finders they would be 1940ís furuno vs 1950ís lowrance and nobody would believe what chirp, side scan, down scan and 3kw transducers could be capable of. Thatís how far from the top of the modern heap you are.


440c was a standardÖ back in the day and yes, s30v was a quantum leap forward. But that was 20 years ago. S30v is old news and has been far, far surpassed by much better steels for almost every application. There are a few makers I would use s30v from but if I was having those guys build me a knife I would ask for it in something else. Currently I donít own and wonít own any s30v knives because itís never impressed me compared to what else is available.

That said, steel choice matters but to get the most from it you need an specific use and a master smith to create a knife with optimised geometry, heat treat and fit/finish and the end user has to know how to properly sharpen it to get the most from it. Use a knife designed to slice as a chopper and youíll probably break it. Use something with thick blade stock and obtuse grinds and itíll never slice as well as something that was designed to slice. Factory knives will never get within the same area code as a properly designed custom.

Someone brought up northarm knives. Iíve got two of their knives and imo they missed the boat on the heat treat. Itís very, very chippy and the corrosion resistance is far below what s35vn should be capable of. Itís designed to be a tougher steel then s30v (which is also often chippy) but here is the blade after filleting one fish. If you look closely you can see the chips along the blade.




That was brand new out of the box to cutting exactly what you can see in this picÖ aka one half of one fish. No bones cut



I assumed it needed the factory edge sharpened away. When that didnít help I increase the primary bevel to 20 deg and it still didnít help. This is a thick filleting knife at .016Ē behind the edge.



Now two years later itís chipping everywhere. This knife isnít abused, sees minimal cutting, I avoid bone like the plague because I know itís chippy and gets wiped down after every use.



The north arm kitchen knife Iíve got has demonstrated exactly the same behaviour so imo itís a heat treat issue.


Contrast that to a well built filleting knife. Made by a master from a middle of the road steel with an impeccable heat treat and geometry. This one has processed thousands??? of pounds of fish. I donít shy away from bone (real fish bones, ribs the size of a kebab skewer) and its never chipped.




That knife runs a mere .006Ē behind the edge and is a slicing weapon. I used to give it a few licks on the stone after every session but I realised it wasnít losing any cutting aggression and I was wasting my time and wearing the knife out. So I quit sharpening it and have since processed these fish with it since itís seen a stone.














It still push cuts paper with and across the grain and pops hair off my arm without actually having to touch my skin. Iím curious to see how much further it will go before needing a touch up but itís an absolute joy to use. No force or slicing required, put it into the fish and effortlessly move it in the direction I want to cut and it cuts.

Iíve mentioned it before in other threads but I use dozier and Crotts hunting knives. Their bread and butter is D2 steel which is far from modern or super but it flat out works with Bobs proprietary heat treat. That high hollow grind and an edge finished on a fine DMT stone gives me performance in spades. I used to sharpen them after every animal even though they didnít need it. One year I decided to see how far they would cut and used this knife




to gut and skin that bear, three elk and six deer that fall. At the end of the season it too would still effortlessly shave my arm along its entire blade. The kind of shaving where it makes that sound when it pops the hairs before it actually touches the skin. Iíve processed a lot of animals with those knives and never lost an edge in a season or on one animal. And when I say lose an edge I mean itís ability to effortlessly cut and shave. I wonít use an edge if it requires any force to cut. When I watch a hunting show and theyíre using a slicing motion to cut something like hide it irritates me. I expect to put my knife into a moose and give it an effortless push and watch the hide part like water on either side of my blade.


I had Crotts build me one in a more modern steel (s90v) but took possession of it after I moved to Oz and havenít bothered to go hunting since so I canít speak to its performance.


I find a lot of joy using a well designed, sharp knife. Be it a pocket knife, in the boat, cleaning fish or processing an animal. My experience on forums is most guys donít understand, donít care or donít believe what I write which will likely be the same here but you guys are leaving a ton of performance on the table. Anyone who thinks something like a havelon is sharp has never used a sharp knife.

Furthermore, thereís been zero discussion of the things that are applicable to the knives you do have. Primary and secondary bevels, media theyíre sharpened on, final grit, how theyíre stropped. There was a test I read once and by simply changing the media some steels are sharpened on, edge retention was increased 3X.


There is a lot of information on steels and knives on the web if you look for it. The performance gains on specific knives, steels, heat treats and sharpening techniques is significant.

For two examples.

If you look at ankersons tests on 5/8Ē Manila rope with his exacting testing process where a knife was tested until it took 20lbs of down force to cut the rope. An opinel in XC90 steel made 80 cuts. An opinel in 12c27 (same steel as a mora) made 120 cuts. A spyderco military in s30v made 300 cuts. A Phil Wilson in 10v made 2400 cuts. There were two Phil Wilsons in m390 and elmax were left out of the test because they made to many cuts. Or, in his words ďThe Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.Ē Those four I referenced are the bottom and top of the heap, many steels in the middle.

If you look at Larrinís testing over on knife steel nerds with CATRA youíll find this chart showing edge retention with a few modern steels.



For the uninitiated CATRA is

A stack of paper stock with 5% silica (sand) in it is lowered onto a knife with a fixed load (50 Newtons) and the knife is moved back and forth. The knife cuts into the paper which allows the head to lower, the distance the head lowers is recorded for every ďcutĒ of the knife. In other words, it records how much paper is cut with each stroke. After 120 strokes (60 back and forth ďcyclesĒ) the test is complete and the total amount of paper is added up, called the Total Cardstock Cut (TCC) reported in mm.


Can always follow a hyperlink if your so inclined.


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/...on-resistance/


Or we can just keep going around in circles discussing how butchers use victorinox and pro fishermen use dexter or rapala so Iíll use my buck or gerber to process my elk because itís always worked for me.

Last edited by Coiloil37; 01-03-2022 at 03:59 AM.
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  #141  
Old 01-03-2022, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Demonical View Post

As to the comment about saddle soap and mink oil(I think it was?), I'm a hunter. Not much concerned that my stuff is used (hard) and (is well) worn.
It doesn't affect the function.
I made that statement because leather breaks down when it gets wet, A little mink oil and saddle soap will make it last a lot longer than simply neglecting it like you implied.
Cat
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Last edited by catnthehat; 01-03-2022 at 07:26 AM.
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  #142  
Old 01-03-2022, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
Itís a pity most if not all of you havenít experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. From the five pages Iíve read, if we were discussing spotting scopes you would be somewhere between a 1970ís bushnell spacemaster and a tasco. Some would be arguing thereís no way modern alpha glass could be any better. If you were discussing race cars you would be taking about mini vans. If we were talking fish finders they would be 1940ís furuno vs 1950ís lowrance and nobody would believe what chirp, side scan, down scan and 3kw transducers could be capable of. Thatís how far from the top of the modern heap you are.


440c was a standardÖ back in the day and yes, s30v was a quantum leap forward. But that was 20 years ago. S30v is old news and has been far, far surpassed by much better steels for almost every application. There are a few makers I would use s30v from but if I was having those guys build me a knife I would ask for it in something else. Currently I donít own and wonít own any s30v knives because itís never impressed me compared to what else is available.

That said, steel choice matters but to get the most from it you need an specific use and a master smith to create a knife with optimised geometry, heat treat and fit/finish and the end user has to know how to properly sharpen it to get the most from it. Use a knife designed to slice as a chopper and youíll probably break it. Use something with thick blade stock and obtuse grinds and itíll never slice as well as something that was designed to slice. Factory knives will never get within the same area code as a properly designed custom.

Someone brought up northarm knives. Iíve got two of their knives and imo they missed the boat on the heat treat. Itís very, very chippy and the corrosion resistance is far below what s35vn should be capable of. Itís designed to be a tougher steel then s30v (which is also often chippy) but here is the blade after filleting one fish. If you look closely you can see the chips along the blade.




That was brand new out of the box to cutting exactly what you can see in this picÖ aka one half of one fish. No bones cut



I assumed it needed the factory edge sharpened away. When that didnít help I increase the primary bevel to 20 deg and it still didnít help. This is a thick filleting knife at .016Ē behind the edge.



Now two years later itís chipping everywhere. This knife isnít abused, sees minimal cutting, I avoid bone like the plague because I know itís chippy and gets wiped down after every use.



The north arm kitchen knife Iíve got has demonstrated exactly the same behaviour so imo itís a heat treat issue.


Contrast that to a well built filleting knife. Made by a master from a middle of the road steel with an impeccable heat treat and geometry. This one has processed thousands??? of pounds of fish. I donít shy away from bone (real fish bones, ribs the size of a kebab skewer) and its never chipped.




That knife runs a mere .006Ē behind the edge and is a slicing weapon. I used to give it a few licks on the stone after every session but I realised it wasnít losing any cutting aggression and I was wasting my time and wearing the knife out. So I quit sharpening it and have since processed these fish with it since itís seen a stone.














It still push cuts paper with and across the grain and pops hair off my arm without actually having to touch my skin. Iím curious to see how much further it will go before needing a touch up but itís an absolute joy to use. No force or slicing required, put it into the fish and effortlessly move it in the direction I want to cut and it cuts.

Iíve mentioned it before in other threads but I use dozier and Crotts hunting knives. Their bread and butter is D2 steel which is far from modern or super but it flat out works with Bobs proprietary heat treat. That high hollow grind and an edge finished on a fine DMT stone gives me performance in spades. I used to sharpen them after every animal even though they didnít need it. One year I decided to see how far they would cut and used this knife




to gut and skin that bear, three elk and six deer that fall. At the end of the season it too would still effortlessly shave my arm along its entire blade. The kind of shaving where it makes that sound when it pops the hairs before it actually touches the skin. Iíve processed a lot of animals with those knives and never lost an edge in a season or on one animal. And when I say lose an edge I mean itís ability to effortlessly cut and shave. I wonít use an edge if it requires any force to cut. When I watch a hunting show and theyíre using a slicing motion to cut something like hide it irritates me. I expect to put my knife into a moose and give it an effortless push and watch the hide part like water on either side of my blade.


I had Crotts build me one in a more modern steel (s90v) but took possession of it after I moved to Oz and havenít bothered to go hunting since so I canít speak to its performance.


I find a lot of joy using a well designed, sharp knife. Be it a pocket knife, in the boat, cleaning fish or processing an animal. My experience on forums is most guys donít understand, donít care or donít believe what I write which will likely be the same here but you guys are leaving a ton of performance on the table. Anyone who thinks something like a havelon is sharp has never used a sharp knife.

Furthermore, thereís been zero discussion of the things that are applicable to the knives you do have. Primary and secondary bevels, media theyíre sharpened on, final grit, how theyíre stropped. There was a test I read once and by simply changing the media some steels are sharpened on, edge retention was increased 3X.


There is a lot of information on steels and knives on the web if you look for it. The performance gains on specific knives, steels, heat treats and sharpening techniques is significant.

For two examples.

If you look at ankersons tests on 5/8Ē Manila rope with his exacting testing process where a knife was tested until it took 20lbs of down force to cut the rope. An opinel in XC90 steel made 80 cuts. An opinel in 12c27 (same steel as a mora) made 120 cuts. A spyderco military in s30v made 300 cuts. A Phil Wilson in 10v made 2400 cuts. There were two Phil Wilsons in m390 and elmax were left out of the test because they made to many cuts. Or, in his words ďThe Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.Ē Those four I referenced are the bottom and top of the heap, many steels in the middle.

If you look at Larrinís testing over on knife steel nerds with CATRA youíll find this chart showing edge retention with a few modern steels.



For the uninitiated CATRA is

A stack of paper stock with 5% silica (sand) in it is lowered onto a knife with a fixed load (50 Newtons) and the knife is moved back and forth. The knife cuts into the paper which allows the head to lower, the distance the head lowers is recorded for every ďcutĒ of the knife. In other words, it records how much paper is cut with each stroke. After 120 strokes (60 back and forth ďcyclesĒ) the test is complete and the total amount of paper is added up, called the Total Cardstock Cut (TCC) reported in mm.


Can always follow a hyperlink if your so inclined.


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/...on-resistance/


Or we can just keep going around in circles discussing how butchers use victorinox and pro fishermen use dexter or rapala so Iíll use my buck or gerber to process my elk because itís always worked for me.

Thatís a lot of effort you put into that very well written post and Iíd agree with almost all of it, but the OP was asking for recommendation on a skinning knife under $200.
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  #143  
Old 01-03-2022, 09:35 AM
Mb-MBR Mb-MBR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
Itís a pity most if not all of you havenít experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. From the five pages Iíve read, if we were discussing spotting scopes you would be somewhere between a 1970ís bushnell spacemaster and a tasco. Some would be arguing thereís no way modern alpha glass could be any better. If you were discussing race cars you would be taking about mini vans. If we were talking fish finders they would be 1940ís furuno vs 1950ís lowrance and nobody would believe what chirp, side scan, down scan and 3kw transducers could be capable of. Thatís how far from the top of the modern heap you are.


440c was a standardÖ back in the day and yes, s30v was a quantum leap forward. But that was 20 years ago. S30v is old news and has been far, far surpassed by much better steels for almost every application. There are a few makers I would use s30v from but if I was having those guys build me a knife I would ask for it in something else. Currently I donít own and wonít own any s30v knives because itís never impressed me compared to what else is available.

That said, steel choice matters but to get the most from it you need an specific use and a master smith to create a knife with optimised geometry, heat treat and fit/finish and the end user has to know how to properly sharpen it to get the most from it. Use a knife designed to slice as a chopper and youíll probably break it. Use something with thick blade stock and obtuse grinds and itíll never slice as well as something that was designed to slice. Factory knives will never get within the same area code as a properly designed custom.

Someone brought up northarm knives. Iíve got two of their knives and imo they missed the boat on the heat treat. Itís very, very chippy and the corrosion resistance is far below what s35vn should be capable of. Itís designed to be a tougher steel then s30v (which is also often chippy) but here is the blade after filleting one fish. If you look closely you can see the chips along the blade.




That was brand new out of the box to cutting exactly what you can see in this picÖ aka one half of one fish. No bones cut



I assumed it needed the factory edge sharpened away. When that didnít help I increase the primary bevel to 20 deg and it still didnít help. This is a thick filleting knife at .016Ē behind the edge.



Now two years later itís chipping everywhere. This knife isnít abused, sees minimal cutting, I avoid bone like the plague because I know itís chippy and gets wiped down after every use.



The north arm kitchen knife Iíve got has demonstrated exactly the same behaviour so imo itís a heat treat issue.


Contrast that to a well built filleting knife. Made by a master from a middle of the road steel with an impeccable heat treat and geometry. This one has processed thousands??? of pounds of fish. I donít shy away from bone (real fish bones, ribs the size of a kebab skewer) and its never chipped.




That knife runs a mere .006Ē behind the edge and is a slicing weapon. I used to give it a few licks on the stone after every session but I realised it wasnít losing any cutting aggression and I was wasting my time and wearing the knife out. So I quit sharpening it and have since processed these fish with it since itís seen a stone.














It still push cuts paper with and across the grain and pops hair off my arm without actually having to touch my skin. Iím curious to see how much further it will go before needing a touch up but itís an absolute joy to use. No force or slicing required, put it into the fish and effortlessly move it in the direction I want to cut and it cuts.

Iíve mentioned it before in other threads but I use dozier and Crotts hunting knives. Their bread and butter is D2 steel which is far from modern or super but it flat out works with Bobs proprietary heat treat. That high hollow grind and an edge finished on a fine DMT stone gives me performance in spades. I used to sharpen them after every animal even though they didnít need it. One year I decided to see how far they would cut and used this knife




to gut and skin that bear, three elk and six deer that fall. At the end of the season it too would still effortlessly shave my arm along its entire blade. The kind of shaving where it makes that sound when it pops the hairs before it actually touches the skin. Iíve processed a lot of animals with those knives and never lost an edge in a season or on one animal. And when I say lose an edge I mean itís ability to effortlessly cut and shave. I wonít use an edge if it requires any force to cut. When I watch a hunting show and theyíre using a slicing motion to cut something like hide it irritates me. I expect to put my knife into a moose and give it an effortless push and watch the hide part like water on either side of my blade.


I had Crotts build me one in a more modern steel (s90v) but took possession of it after I moved to Oz and havenít bothered to go hunting since so I canít speak to its performance.


I find a lot of joy using a well designed, sharp knife. Be it a pocket knife, in the boat, cleaning fish or processing an animal. My experience on forums is most guys donít understand, donít care or donít believe what I write which will likely be the same here but you guys are leaving a ton of performance on the table. Anyone who thinks something like a havelon is sharp has never used a sharp knife.

Furthermore, thereís been zero discussion of the things that are applicable to the knives you do have. Primary and secondary bevels, media theyíre sharpened on, final grit, how theyíre stropped. There was a test I read once and by simply changing the media some steels are sharpened on, edge retention was increased 3X.


There is a lot of information on steels and knives on the web if you look for it. The performance gains on specific knives, steels, heat treats and sharpening techniques is significant.

For two examples.

If you look at ankersons tests on 5/8Ē Manila rope with his exacting testing process where a knife was tested until it took 20lbs of down force to cut the rope. An opinel in XC90 steel made 80 cuts. An opinel in 12c27 (same steel as a mora) made 120 cuts. A spyderco military in s30v made 300 cuts. A Phil Wilson in 10v made 2400 cuts. There were two Phil Wilsons in m390 and elmax were left out of the test because they made to many cuts. Or, in his words ďThe Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.Ē Those four I referenced are the bottom and top of the heap, many steels in the middle.

If you look at Larrinís testing over on knife steel nerds with CATRA youíll find this chart showing edge retention with a few modern steels.



For the uninitiated CATRA is

A stack of paper stock with 5% silica (sand) in it is lowered onto a knife with a fixed load (50 Newtons) and the knife is moved back and forth. The knife cuts into the paper which allows the head to lower, the distance the head lowers is recorded for every ďcutĒ of the knife. In other words, it records how much paper is cut with each stroke. After 120 strokes (60 back and forth ďcyclesĒ) the test is complete and the total amount of paper is added up, called the Total Cardstock Cut (TCC) reported in mm.


Can always follow a hyperlink if your so inclined.


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/...on-resistance/


Or we can just keep going around in circles discussing how butchers use victorinox and pro fishermen use dexter or rapala so Iíll use my buck or gerber to process my elk because itís always worked for me.
Damn, I feel completely deprived after reading this. Guess I better get on the interweb and order myself some new cutlery. now I have an excuse.....lol
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  #144  
Old 01-03-2022, 10:07 AM
yycyak yycyak is offline
 
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Posts: 17
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$200? Dude, just use these:



Victorinox paring knife. Orange handle. $10 everywhere.

I've done deer and elk with them. No issues. Don't gouge or pry with it (use your belt knife/utility knife for the heavy stuff.) Stays in my kill kit until the real work needs doing.
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  #145  
Old 01-03-2022, 10:33 AM
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rem338win rem338win is offline
 
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Coil, that fillet knife should be returned. Sinter steels will be chippy when they've been treated to be overly hard and that appears to be the worst I've seen. Yuck.
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  #146  
Old 01-03-2022, 11:14 AM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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This looks like a heck of a knife! But with a three year wait, whatís the point?

http://www.dozierknives.com/index.ph...=article&id=40

Last edited by Pathfinder76; 01-03-2022 at 11:23 AM.
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  #147  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:08 PM
tranq78 tranq78 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
Itís a pity most if not all of you havenít experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. [snip]
That's a great writeup. You must have put a lot of time into it. Thanks.
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  #148  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:19 PM
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rem338win rem338win is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
This looks like a heck of a knife! But with a three year wait, whatís the point?

http://www.dozierknives.com/index.ph...=article&id=40
I was gifted a Dozier Sweetwater about a decade ago and I can say it's a great knife. Like Coil, I've found it easy to clean and debone 5 animals before a touchup.

Dozier D2 is something special and Coutts, Ingram and others followed suit making a great "era".

Finding them preowned is difficult but not impossible.
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A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody.
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  #149  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:20 PM
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Dean2 Dean2 is offline
 
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It was good enough to convince me to try one of these super knives. Old guys can actually learn new tricks. Now to find a Crotts or Dozier D2 knife that isn't a 2 year wait. A couple of the knife sites that sell them are actually pretty reasonable, 220 to 300 U.S. but limited stock, like everything else. Dozier's site shows a 3 year wait to order. Will call Crotts tomorrow and see what their wait time is.
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  #150  
Old 01-03-2022, 12:48 PM
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sns2 sns2 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
Itís a pity most if not all of you havenít experienced a truly great piece of cutlery. From the five pages Iíve read, if we were discussing spotting scopes you would be somewhere between a 1970ís bushnell spacemaster and a tasco. Some would be arguing thereís no way modern alpha glass could be any better. If you were discussing race cars you would be taking about mini vans. If we were talking fish finders they would be 1940ís furuno vs 1950ís lowrance and nobody would believe what chirp, side scan, down scan and 3kw transducers could be capable of. Thatís how far from the top of the modern heap you are.


440c was a standardÖ back in the day and yes, s30v was a quantum leap forward. But that was 20 years ago. S30v is old news and has been far, far surpassed by much better steels for almost every application. There are a few makers I would use s30v from but if I was having those guys build me a knife I would ask for it in something else. Currently I donít own and wonít own any s30v knives because itís never impressed me compared to what else is available.

That said, steel choice matters but to get the most from it you need an specific use and a master smith to create a knife with optimised geometry, heat treat and fit/finish and the end user has to know how to properly sharpen it to get the most from it. Use a knife designed to slice as a chopper and youíll probably break it. Use something with thick blade stock and obtuse grinds and itíll never slice as well as something that was designed to slice. Factory knives will never get within the same area code as a properly designed custom.

Someone brought up northarm knives. Iíve got two of their knives and imo they missed the boat on the heat treat. Itís very, very chippy and the corrosion resistance is far below what s35vn should be capable of. Itís designed to be a tougher steel then s30v (which is also often chippy) but here is the blade after filleting one fish. If you look closely you can see the chips along the blade.

I had Crotts build me one in a more modern steel (s90v) but took possession of it after I moved to Oz and havenít bothered to go hunting since so I canít speak to its performance.


I find a lot of joy using a well designed, sharp knife. Be it a pocket knife, in the boat, cleaning fish or processing an animal. My experience on forums is most guys donít understand, donít care or donít believe what I write which will likely be the same here but you guys are leaving a ton of performance on the table. Anyone who thinks something like a havelon is sharp has never used a sharp knife.

Furthermore, thereís been zero discussion of the things that are applicable to the knives you do have. Primary and secondary bevels, media theyíre sharpened on, final grit, how theyíre stropped. There was a test I read once and by simply changing the media some steels are sharpened on, edge retention was increased 3X.


Or we can just keep going around in circles discussing how butchers use victorinox and pro fishermen use dexter or rapala so Iíll use my buck or gerber to process my elk because itís always worked for me.
Thanks, bud. Outta my price range unfortunately. Outstanding write-up. I learn from stuff like this. I'm sure many others do also.
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