Man shot and killed by police in Onoway

[huntinstuff]

A knife is a lethal threat.
A Taser is not the correct tool.

Unlike Hollywood movies, getting shot does not blow the assailant backwards or through a window. Most people do not even realize they have been shot, thus they continue in the motion, usually forward.

Forward. Towards the person with the gun.

Getting shot with a 40 cal, or 12g will not knock you off your feet. It may crumple you, but no distance is gained by shooting someone.

A Taser at 20ft is iffy, at best.

I guarantee you if I have a knife and you have a gun, at 25 ft or less, I will give you life threatening injuries. You MIGHT get a shot in. You better have that gun in your hand, finger on the trigger, front sight on my chest or head. And I dont move all that fast.

If the gun is in your holster, or it isnt pointed at me, you are a dead man.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

A knife is a lethal threat.
A Taser is not the correct tool.

Unlike Hollywood movies, getting shot does not blow the assailant backwards or through a window. Most people do not even realize they have been shot, thus they continue in the motion, usually forward.

Forward. Towards the person with the gun.

Getting shot with a 40 cal, or 12g will not knock you off your feet. It may crumple you, but no distance is gained by shooting someone.

A Taser at 20ft is iffy, at best.

I guarantee you if I have a knife and you have a gun, at 25 ft or less, I will give you life threatening injuries. You MIGHT get a shot in. You better have that gun in your hand, finger on the trigger, front sight on my chest or head. And I dont move all that fast.

If the gun is in your holster, or it isnt pointed at me, you are a dead man.

There you have it, the final word.

And btw Randy, sometimes you scare the livin hell out of me.......

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by twisted canuck

There you have it, the final word.

And btw Randy, sometimes you scare the livin hell out of me.......

I've done training on "surviving edged weapons", external of the police dept.
We used Glock paint markers and Taser "electric knives"

It is a humbling experience. It scares you and its all scenario based. You know the attacker personally and he still freaks you out.

And those Taser electric knives feel EXACTLY like a cut, only there is no injury.

[Albertadiver]

News this evening says the guy had a machete AND a knife.

Enought said.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

A knife is a lethal threat.
A Taser is not the correct tool.

Unlike Hollywood movies, getting shot does not blow the assailant backwards or through a window. Most people do not even realize they have been shot, thus they continue in the motion, usually forward.

Forward. Towards the person with the gun.

Getting shot with a 40 cal, or 12g will not knock you off your feet. It may crumple you, but no distance is gained by shooting someone.

A Taser at 20ft is iffy, at best.

I guarantee you if I have a knife and you have a gun, at 25 ft or less, I will give you life threatening injuries. You MIGHT get a shot in. You better have that gun in your hand, finger on the trigger, front sight on my chest or head. And I dont move all that fast.

If the gun is in your holster, or it isnt pointed at me, you are a dead man.

Have to ask - and i hope you give your opinion...

According to the news, the police tried to talk the man down but according to witnesses it was a matter of a minute or two before the man was shot.

Knowing the man had a knife and/or machete, you would have your gun drawn (or be ready to do so).


You say that if you had a knife and i had a gun, you could do some damage at a certain distance. What if the tables were turned? I as an average joe and you as a trained police officer with the gun?

Is this a fair outcome? I've always wondered why police shoot to kill. A bullet in the leg is going to disable anyone.

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by Albertadiver

News this evening says the guy had a machete AND a knife.

Enought said.

Yup. That'll do it for sure. A knife and a machete.
I vote suicide by cop.

Sad actually

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Is this a fair outcome? I've always wondered why police shoot to kill. A bullet in the leg is going to disable anyone.

Only in the movies does this happen....better yet just shoot the knife out of his hand then no one gets hurt.....

Anyone will be disabled? even someone high on Meth or PCP?.....

I used to rent my basement out to new RCMP recruits. I asked one of them what the line was on when you draw your weapon what are you taught to do....basically if they need to discharge a weapon the line is "2 to the body 1 to the head"

....not sure if you are a handgun shooter or not but you have to realise center mass is the highest percentage disabling/kill shot....also less likeliness of that bullet going past the target....

you have to realize what goes into this training and even some of the best IPSC shooters in the world would miss at 30 yards on a leg sized target....

No sense in having a sidearm if you are not prepared to use it....if this was a crazed lunatic and they were coming after your wife or child.....would you want a chest shot or a wound to the leg?

LC

[Albertadiver]

If someone is not obeying orders to drop whatever he's using as a weapon and comes at me, I'm going to make sure I get home to my family. Not going to get all fancy and try (and probably fail) to do a leg shot. Someone that upset can keep running with a hole in a leg.

[silverdoctor]

Whoa whoa... this is what has me a little perturbed here...


Purvis said a machete and knife were found at the scene, but he could not comment on whether the man had been holding them before he was shot.


Again, pure speculation. IF he were armed, the ASIRT would have said so outright.

[BeeGuy]

"suicide by cop"

That is some serious double speak.

What a world.

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

A knife is a lethal threat.
A Taser is not the correct tool.

Unlike Hollywood movies, getting shot does not blow the assailant backwards or through a window. Most people do not even realize they have been shot, thus they continue in the motion, usually forward.

Forward. Towards the person with the gun.

Getting shot with a 40 cal, or 12g will not knock you off your feet. It may crumple you, but no distance is gained by shooting someone.

A Taser at 20ft is iffy, at best.

I guarantee you if I have a knife and you have a gun, at 25 ft or less, I will give you life threatening injuries. You MIGHT get a shot in. You better have that gun in your hand, finger on the trigger, front sight on my chest or head. And I dont move all that fast.

If the gun is in your holster, or it isnt pointed at me, you are a dead man.

Again.. I guess you had to be there....

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Whoa whoa... this is what has me a little perturbed here...


Purvis said a machete and knife were found at the scene, but he could not comment on whether the man had been holding them before he was shot.


Again, pure speculation. IF he were armed, the ASIRT would have said so outright.

Never trust a LEO.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Never trust a LEO.

I thought you had to look out for Virgo's and Scorpio's?

LC

[bb356]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

"suicide by cop"

That is some serious double speak.

What a world.

What color is the sky in your world ?

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Have to ask - and i hope you give your opinion...

According to the news, the police tried to talk the man down but according to witnesses it was a matter of a minute or two before the man was shot.

Knowing the man had a knife and/or machete, you would have your gun drawn (or be ready to do so).


You say that if you had a knife and i had a gun, you could do some damage at a certain distance. What if the tables were turned? I as an average joe and you as a trained police officer with the gun?

Is this a fair outcome? I've always wondered why police shoot to kill. A bullet in the leg is going to disable anyone.

Me with the knife is no different than anyone else. Im just a regular dork with a knife, like anyone else.

Me with a gun would be just as dead or injured from anyone with a knife at 25ft or less.

For argument sake, lets say i was a cop in a hallway and some dink was in the hallway with a knife.

My gun would be out, pointed at his chest, finger in the trigger. He would be told to drop the knife. If he spoke Id listen but my concentration would be on my front sight. I would not engage in dialogue. I would repeat to drop the knife. Its all i would say, over and over. If I had a partner, he would talk, I would concentrate on my front sight and keep my mouth shut.

Eventually he would either drop it, or run away,or attack me and get shot as many times as I could pull the trigger.

Engaging in conversation when posed with a lethal threat affects concentration. We can talk all night, after he drops the knife and I gain control of the situation

Chances are if he takes a run at me, he will get shot in the leg, but I was aiming at his chest.

Im confident that if he attacks me with a knife, he isnt intending on stabbing me in the leg. In fairness, I shouldnt shoot him in the leg either.

In coming at me with a knife, I instantly believe he is going to kill me. Logically, I am forced to kill him instead. And I would.

[Albertadiver]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Never trust a LEO.

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

"suicide by cop"

That is some serious double speak.

What a world.

Well if that ain't ignorance I don't know what is....

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Albertadiver

Well if that ain't ignorance I don't know what is....

Yup you were right....straight from WIKI....

Ignorance (or witlessness) is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).[1] The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult. Ignoramus is commonly used in the US, the UK, and Ireland as a name of someone who is willfully ignorant or commonly known as a BeeGuy comment.

LC

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by Albertadiver

Well if that ain't ignorance I don't know what is....

It's an opinion. Not one I agree with but that is irrelevant

[silverdoctor]

I'm going to be upfront here. I'm an average guy, no special skills or training.

Twice in my life i've been attacked by a knife wielding asshat, and i'm still here, no wounds to speak of. I didn't have any weapons to protect myself but I came out on top. yeah, living in downtown Toronto has it's downsides.

That's why I question all this.

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I'm going to be upfront here. I'm an average guy, no special skills or training.

Twice in my life i've been attacked by a knife wielding asshat, and i'm still here, no wounds to speak of. I didn't have any weapons to protect myself but I came out on top. yeah, living in downtown Toronto has it's downsides.

That's why I question all this.

You are one lucky SOB. Im glad you are here.
If you were CCW, would you have had time to draw and use it?

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

There's a lesson to be learned here...."Never bring a knife to a gun fight"

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Guessing they wouldn't have shot him had he not been waving the knife around

X2

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

Im confident that if he attacks me with a knife, he isnt intending on stabbing me in the leg. In fairness, I shouldnt shoot him in the leg either.

LOL....you do have a unique way of looking at things. I like it!

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Never trust a LEO.

If the words "with your wife or girlfriend" were added to that line, Id have to agree with you. Ive known some lawdogs in my time

As far as "suicide by cop" goes, its pretty simple:

Guy wants attention or has a fight with his woman and he gets out of hand. She calls the cops. He thinks " Ill show her" so he grabs a knife and meets the cops with it in his hands. Sometimes they drop it, sometimes they get dropped. But the common thread is people know if you attack a cop with a weapon, you will be shot. Some guys want that. They wont necessarily cut their own wrists with the knife and die, but they will get themselves shot on purpose.

Its not a great label for such an incident, but when someone purposely causes their own death, its called suicide. Cops are just the tool used to accomplish it.

[plinker]

Hey Randy,

Do you remember years ago when the Calgary police officer shot an individual with an edged weapon using the Glacier round? Do you remember the hooplaw from the bleeding hearts that came after when the autopsy report said the round devasted the perps liver. All the armchair quarterbacks said the officer should have John Wayne'd the bad guy.

If I remember correctly, a short time after that, the same situation came up in Edmonton and the officer involved hesitated and was injured by the weapon (edged) the bad guy had?

I knew the officer in Calgary and he retired with disability soon after because he couldn't handle the fact he had to shoot and kill an armed man whos sole goal was to kill him.

A friend of mine I grew up with, his dad was the Chief of Police for Westmount in Quebec. His Golden rule that he taught his officers was if a man comes at you with his bare hands, you use your club. If he comes at you with anything in his hands, you shoot him.

You have a tough job bud. Be safe.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

You are one lucky SOB. Im glad you are here.
If you were CCW, would you have had time to draw and use it?

Lucky SOB? not at all, just someone who won't take crap from anyone. I know others that faced the same danger and came out on top.

My question to you Randy? You are a trained officer are you not? What's your real opinion? The ASIRT isn't saying anything - not even that the man was actually armed, only that a knife and machete were found on the scene. That really makes me leery of this whole incident, that and the fact that he was shot in someone else's apartment.



I'm cynical over all this and i'll make a prediction right now cause of the history of the RCMP. The officers will be cleared of all wrongdoing but will wind up being charged with perjury due to lying. That's happening all too often.


There are many people in this country that have been attacked by others with knives and lived to tell the tale - we aren't allowed to defend ourselves with a gun - so your question isn't valid.


That's JMO

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

Im confident that if he attacks me with a knife, he isnt intending on stabbing me in the leg. In fairness, I shouldnt shoot him in the leg either.

HAHAHA! I vote that as todays statement of the day!

[sinawalli]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

I'm going to be upfront here. I'm an average guy, no special skills or training.

Twice in my life i've been attacked by a knife wielding asshat, and i'm still here, no wounds to speak of. I didn't have any weapons to protect myself but I came out on top. yeah, living in downtown Toronto has it's downsides.

That's why I question all this.

He did not have intent to kill you, if he had, you would not be here. Plain and simple! Look at prison knife attacks, very brutal, fast, killer instinct on full bore. It's over in seconds. I have trained with knives for several years, with some of the best knife fighters in the world, and man, if that guy knew what he was doing, and wanted to hurt you, then hurt you would have been. Not trying to pick a fight or anything, but unarmed against a knife is a very dangerous situation, and to come out totally unharmed is very, very rare!! You sir, are a very lucky man, no wonder you eat Trinidad scorpion peppers!!

[gatorhunter]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

"suicide by cop"

That is some serious double speak.

What a world.

Fairly common. Subject doesn't have the mind set do it himself so provokes an officer to do it for him.

Tazer is a tool to answer a physical threat to an officer, officer's partner, public or subject himself. If there is a weapon that can cause death or grievous bodily harm to officers or public in the immediate area, then lethal force (firearm) is the officer's control option.

Uniforms aren't there to fight fair, sustain injury or grievous bodily harm. That's why they train and are equipped with various defensive tools.

Officers take the fight to the bad guy if that's what the circumstances dictate.

Officers are there to win 100% of their fights 100% of the time. Coming in second is not an option!

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

If the words "with your wife or girlfriend" were added to that line, Id have to agree with you. Ive known some lawdogs in my time

How about, "with an unarmed civilian", or "with someone's charter rights", or "with confiscated drugs or cash", or etc etc etc

There is a problem in this country, and the 2 south of us.

Huntinstuff, thanks for showing some class whether you agree or not. That is far beyond the character of many here.

[1shotwade]

Scenario!! Rcmp- knock knock RCMP weve had a complaint of noise and dsiruption! Suspect - opens door holding knife and machete
RCMP Drop the weapons guns drawn reading to roll{ this happens in one millisecond}Small amount of dialogue is exchanged with lot's of expletives!!!!
Suspect- takes 1 step forward bang bang!
Good job boys go home safe !!