Elk Island National Park considers hunt to cull herds

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

He prolly means those elk have never been shot at....or hunted....they probably arnt even very wary at all due to a shortage of predators. That alone would make them easier to hunt. By a great degree.

Yup, most elk are no where near roads and don't continue feeding as you drive by....see Jasper and Banff...

LC

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Yup, most elk are no where near roads and don't continue feeding as you drive by....see Jasper and Banff...

LC

Even in area's where Elk are hunted on a regular basis, you still see them in fields or by the side of the road. You don't have to go to Jasper or Banff to see that. Doesn't mean they are tame.
Some of the ones at Jasper and Banff do seem to have lost all fear of humans though.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Even in area's where Elk are hunted on a regular basis, you still see them in fields or by the side of the road. You don't have to go to Jasper or Banff to see that. Doesn't mean they are tame.
Some of the ones at Jasper and Banff do seem to have lost all fear of humans though.

None of the elk I have killed have been next to the road. How many of the ones you have shot have been next to the road? Point being they get habituated to people and vehilces when not hunted, like Banff and Jasper. Once they get pursued it's a different ball game.

LC

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

None of the elk I have killed have been next to the road. How many of the ones you have shot have been next to the road? Point being they get habituated to people and vehilces when not hunted, like Banff and Jasper. Once they get pursued it's a different ball game.

LC

Your preaching to the choir. I never said they were tame.
I'm sure that almost all elk are habituated to human activity to one degree or another in AB.

[last minute]

Well, there is about 8.15 tame elk per square mile trapped in the park

WOW really do they eat out of your hand or come running when you whistle .I don't think so nice try .

let me ask if a Farmer owns lets say 400 acres and its fenced and only lets a few hunter on his property is that considered a pen hunt .???

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by last minute

let me ask if a Farmer owns lets say 400 acres and its fenced and only lets a few hunter on his property is that considered a pen hunt .???

If it's fenced so that they can't escape, then of course.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by last minute

WOW really do they eat out of your hand or come running when you whistle .I don't think so nice try .

let me ask if a Farmer owns lets say 400 acres and its fenced and only lets a few hunter on his property is that considered a pen hunt .???

Well I laid out the stats and the facts, if you figure shooting an elk in a pen is your idea of hunting, that's fine. I still say it's as challenging as shooting cattle, but some people would call that hunting too.

[last minute]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Well I laid out the stats and the facts, if you figure shooting an elk in a pen is your idea of hunting, that's fine. I still say it's as challenging as shooting cattle, but some people would call that hunting too.

Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say anything like shooting elk in a pen is my idea of hunting you did .
A fence is just that a fence

[last minute]

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[last minute]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

If it's fenced so that they can't escape, then of course.

thanks for clarifying that

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by last minute

Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say anything like shooting elk in a pen is my idea of hunting you did .
A fence is just that a fence

Sorry for my error in wording......


You like to shoot elk in an enclosure

[270person]

Quick question. If I shoot at a nice bull with a harem, drop him but the rest run headlong into the fence with casualties resulting, can I be charged with taking over my limit?

[last minute]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Sorry for my error in wording......


You like to shoot elk in an enclosure

You need to stop accusing me of something I don't do you don't know me

[Outdoorfanatic]

Guys the question for all of the hunting community right now is what solutions to Elk Island do we propose. For those who struggle with the notion of "hunting" in the Park what viable alternatives do you propose? Even if you wouldn't choose to participate for person reasons. Arguing about the semantics doesn't help the officials decide anything and doesn't win us any allies with the non hunters.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Outdoorfanatic

Guys the question for all of the hunting community right now is what solutions to Elk Island do we propose. For those who struggle with the notion of "hunting" in the Park what viable alternatives do you propose? Even if you wouldn't choose to participate for person reasons. Arguing about the semantics doesn't help the officials decide anything and doesn't win us any allies with the non hunters.

Government goes in and handles the cull themselves. Then the bad optics are not transferred to hunters and they do their own dirty work. I realize that may not be a popular option, but hunters have enough bad optics with the general public.

LC

[claystone]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Government goes in and handles the cull themselves. Then the bad optics are not transferred to hunters and they do their own dirty work. I realize that may not be a popular option, but hunters have enough bad optics with the general public.

LC

I agree, they have already taken animals out, they can continue doing so just ramp it up and all meat go to the needy.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Government goes in and handles the cull themselves. Then the bad optics are not transferred to hunters and they do their own dirty work. I realize that may not be a popular option, but hunters have enough bad optics with the general public.

LC

I would rather see that occur, than allowing only certain hunters based on race.

[1899b]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Government goes in and handles the cull themselves. Then the bad optics are not transferred to hunters and they do their own dirty work. I realize that may not be a popular option, but hunters have enough bad optics with the general public.

LC

Yup, i agree. Take a stroll through Cooking Lake Blackfoot Rec area with your 12 gauge after legally obtaining a discharge permit. Its quite interesting the looks of disdain you get from the granola hikers, crosscountry skiiers and other users of the area.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Outdoorfanatic

Guys the question for all of the hunting community right now is what solutions to Elk Island do we propose. For those who struggle with the notion of "hunting" in the Park what viable alternatives do you propose? Even if you wouldn't choose to participate for person reasons. Arguing about the semantics doesn't help the officials decide anything and doesn't win us any allies with the non hunters.

Page 1, post 15.

[Kurt505]

I highly doubt they will ever let the public in there on an elk shoot, I guarantee it will be a failure. The government has to go in there and shoot the elk. It's Canada's 150, they can donate the meat free to all Canadians for public BBQ's at fairs and festivals nation wide. Set up a booth at every fair and festival promoting wild game and serve burgers.

[700-223]

Allow hunting by draw, open and equal access to all, drop hunters off at randomly drawn sites and allow the use of vehicles only to the nearest access point (road) for the retrieval of game if an animal is harvested. No race to find the herd, chasing animals all over etc, tracking up the park. Or park officials to provide packhorses/transportation of game back to vehicles to minimize environmental impact. Jump gates won't lower the population enough and will irritate surrounding farmers though could be done in addition to allowing hunting, and effectiveness and ethics of hunt should be compared to the only reasonable alternative - a cull. In other words, the least environmentally damaging and disruptive manner possible consistent with a park.

IMO, there is nothing incompatible about hunting with national parks - they exist to preserve wilderness for us and future generations. Hunting should be used to enhance and maintain the health of our parks, if closely regulated to minimize the impact on other users. The idea that nature will take care of itself is ludicrous. Extinction events are natural, so are population booms and busts, as are people! We have altered the landscape (as do all organisms), so we need to begin seeing ourselves as part of nature and begin to intentionally minimize and mitigate unsustainable conditions around us.

Seems to me that some hunters are guilty of elitism. If your hunt doesnt fit what they think is right, they look down at you. In my opinion, they are one-percenters of a different kind.

A major reason behind the North American model of wildlife management is to maintain healthy game populations and ecosystems. Given there is overpopulation of elk in this park causing damage to grazing conditions and increased risk of disease amongst the species, this is about reducing elk numbers. This is in fact part of the major purpose behind every hunting season in North America i.e. sustainable harvest. Annual hunting can vary from inadequate to control population to unsustainable from area to area and species to species. The hunting season is limited to minimize stress to the animals and to minimize losses to hunting, but what do we do when annual losses to age, predation, hunting, and other causes are inadequate to control a population to the detriment of the ecosystem? The idea of "fair chase" is part of this as well. There is nothing inherently ethical about hiking further, giving the animal a greater chance of escape, increasing your risk of not harvesting an animal during hunting season, and not hunting year round other than its beneficial effects on wildlife management. Taken to the extreme, this attitude leads to stupid statements like, "give the bear a fair chance and take him on with a knife." Part of the reason for "fair chase" ethics is to limit hunting success rate and annual harvest.

"Fair chase" and using what you take is of course also about respecting the animals and the environment that we all share, but as long as the hunting conditions mandated maintain a sustainable population of game another species it's ethical. Do it legally, safely, and minimize the chance of undue suffering for the animal. Do it in pink multicam with a semiautomatic Garand for all I care. The number of hunters, harvest rate, game numbers and changes to the environment should determine legal hunting methods, not aesthetic concerns. In a case like this, there is nothing wrong with a high success rate hunt. The money from tags can be put to conservation and habitat maintenance, the GMO/Abx/GH free organic game can be eaten, and the health of the herd and the park ecosystem improved. The idea that subsistence hunting is more ethical than big game hunting in the backcountry on foot (and using the consumable meat) than shooting a deer in the back forty is ridiculous and counterproductive. We are all going to share in the health or illness of our environment, so we should keep that in mind!

Ask me if I care if you walk 500 m from your truck to take one rather than 15 km on foot carrying ultralight camping gear with a bow you made with your own hands drinking your own urine and living off the land for days. Some hunters seem to value hunting for the opportunity to look down on others, you decide if this is you or not as I'm not going to name names.

Hunting should be an inclusive activity, part of good stewardship of our environment, an opportunity to connect with cultural and family traditions, and a sustainable way to obtain protein while managing game populations as well as habitat and related prey and predator game. For those of you who think the way you hunt is the only good and right way I say - Good day!

I hunted two half days a couple of years ago and took a small buck in a field a quarter section from the house. Three years ago, I stayed overnight in the backcountry, hunting 4 or 5 days and got a big bodied buck about at the end of my last day. Last year, I covered a lot of ground in the truck from area to area and a lot of time on foot over 3 or 4 days and didn't see much. Chose not to take anything as the freezer wasn't empty and numbers seemed to be down in the areas we covered. IMO, all were great hunts for the time I had available, all were ethical, legal and safe.

I believe hunting is an ethical and environmentally sustainable activity that is essential for our society to truly appreciate and care for our environment. I know I'm dreaming thinking parks will try to utilize hunters and give them credit, but a guy can dream, right? Anyway, I've said more than I should and wandered a bit off topic but hope this is worth the (long) read to someone.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by 1899b

Yup, i agree. Take a stroll through Cooking Lake Blackfoot Rec area with your 12 gauge after legally obtaining a discharge permit. Its quite interesting the looks of disdain you get from the granola hikers, crosscountry skiiers and other users of the area.

I'd like to know what else your doing that draws this distain your talking about. I and people I know hunt Blackfoot on a regular basis, and everyone seems to get along fine. Never once have I seen or heard about a problem or confrontation. Perhaps your attitude towards these "Granola hikers" is showing.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by 1899b

Yup, i agree. Take a stroll through Cooking Lake Blackfoot Rec area with your 12 gauge after legally obtaining a discharge permit. Its quite interesting the looks of disdain you get from the granola hikers, crosscountry skiiers and other users of the area.

Haha! I once had a person scream and clutch their partner when we rounded the corner on one of the trails there...

Had a nice chat and chuckle together after that. All good.

[700-223]

Originally Posted by waterninja

I'd like to know what else your doing that draws this distain your talking about. I and people I know hunt Blackfoot on a regular basis, and everyone seems to get along fine. Never once have I seen or heard about a problem or confrontation. Perhaps your attitude towards these "Granola hikers" is showing.

Please. Many people have a negative attitude towards hunting and firearms, especially amongst the hiking Volkswagen or hybrid driving urban hippy crowd. No, not every 'granola' or fits this generalization but it is not uncommon especially amongst the granola crowd. All too often, they are the worse kind intolerant jerk who loves the outdoors not for its own sake but because they actually can't stand other people.

I say this as a regular hiker, former rock climber/mountaineer/granola. But I'm a redneck too!

[Talking moose]

Awhile back I went on a hike in Blackfoot through a hiking group through an internet group. We met at waskahigan staging area.(trying to meet woman to tell you the truth), anyway, about halfway through a shot was heard in the distance. Talk about stirring a hornets nest! Some of the group(about 20 in group) wanted to turn around before they were shot, others wanted to go towards the shot and give the shooter a peice of their mind, and all were writing their mla and parks etc etc. Was bad enough listening to the ndp rallies they were going to attend in upcoming weeks but that was something else. Ended the hike with no other shots fired and I couldn't jump in my gas guzzling old rusty pick up fast enough. No they don't like to share areas with hunters.

[338 Rules]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Awhile back I went on a hike in Blackfoot through a hiking group through an internet group. We met at waskahigan staging area.(trying to meet woman to tell you the truth), anyway, about halfway through a shot was heard in the distance. Talk about stirring a hornets nest! Some of the group(about 20 in group) wanted to turn around before they were shot, others wanted to go towards the shot and give the shooter a peice of their mind, and all were writing their mla and parks etc etc. Was bad enough listening to the ndp rallies they were going to attend in upcoming weeks but that was something else. Ended the hike with no other shots fired and I couldn't jump in my gas guzzling old rusty pick up fast enough. No they don't like to share areas with hunters.

Try http://www.eharmony.com lol

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Awhile back I went on a hike in Blackfoot through a hiking group through an internet group. We met at waskahigan staging area.(trying to meet woman to tell you the truth), anyway, about halfway through a shot was heard in the distance. Talk about stirring a hornets nest! Some of the group(about 20 in group) wanted to turn around before they were shot, others wanted to go towards the shot and give the shooter a peice of their mind, and all were writing their mla and parks etc etc. Was bad enough listening to the ndp rallies they were going to attend in upcoming weeks but that was something else. Ended the hike with no other shots fired and I couldn't jump in my gas guzzling old rusty pick up fast enough. No they don't like to share areas with hunters.

You know the hippies don't shave anything right?

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

You know the hippies don't shave anything right?

Ya, but these were more of a school teacher crowd, no dread locks and bright colours. Figured a few might shave... haha

[1899b]

Originally Posted by waterninja

I'd like to know what else your doing that draws this distain your talking about. I and people I know hunt Blackfoot on a regular basis, and everyone seems to get along fine. Never once have I seen or heard about a problem or confrontation. Perhaps your attitude towards these "Granola hikers" is showing.

No problems or confrontations just the odd looks of disdain. Never said there was "problems" or "confrontations". Learn to read bud. Top marks for your insinuation though....

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by 1899b

No problems or confrontations just the odd looks of disdain. Never said there was "problems" or "confrontations". Learn to read bud..

Sorry B. Sounded like you were sneering at the granola eating hikers who were giving you looks of distain.
They don't like you, and you don't like them. Thats fine. You both have an equal right to be there.
Only problem I have ever had there is if someones dog is not under proper control.