Sheep Hunting Gun/Caliber Questions

Stinky Coyote · #1 07-03-2007, 11:13 AM

So whats the ideal sheep hunting rifle and caliber and why?

How much does it weigh?

How fast does it shoot?

Bolt or single shot action?

Has anyone taken a slower lighter hitting cartridge like a 7-08 and just learned it to 5-600 yrds via a bp reticle or clicking turrets?

Has anyone had a leupold built up from a lightweight model like a fixed 4 or 6x or 2-8x vary with an elevation turret to use for the longer stuff in the name of weight savings? (or stupid idea?)

I'm just starting to look into things and so far i'm not a reloader...holding off as long as i can on that or the next thing i know i'll be building custom guns, reloading, spending untold time shooting at ranges and building a 1000 yrd go getter that weighs 7 lbs all in, and all that time i'll likely be getting a divorce too...so i'm really trying to stick to the factory stuff if possible and avoid that whole divorce thing.

Current gun which 'will do' for now

is a tikka lam/ss that weighs exactly 7 lb 15.5 ounces empty, thats no sling, leupy bases/rings, burris ff2 3-9x40 with bp reticle and a five shot mag...i think its 8 lb 6 ounce with 5 rounds in the mag and nothing up tube. It shoots fusion 130 gr factory ammo 5 shots into 1.5 easily and repeatable in my hands group after group(pretty sure the gun can do better but i'm lazy when shooting and don't concentrate too hard). I thought about finding lighter rings/bases and maybe skeletonizing the stock or replacing and then maybe even a lighter leupy scope? but then nixed the idea as probably too much effort/money so might as well start with new project? Stick with this gun and just lose the 2 or 3 pounds off my gut or save for a dreamy ultralight dedicated mountain gun in the future?

Looking for any and all thoughts on what makes the ideal sheep rifle and caliber.

#2 07-03-2007, 11:25 AM

A bolt or single shot...your choice.

Under 6.5 pounds naked!

A minimum 3,000fps at the muzzle with a minimum 115 grain bullet and preferably something in the 125-140 grain range.

Lots of good calibre choices. If you are going with a bolt action...you are likely looking at a short magnum. A single shot will give the choice of some of the long action calibres too. If I were building a sheep rifle today, it would be a single shot 7mm STW or a 270WSM or 300WSM in a bolt.

Stinky Coyote · #3 07-03-2007, 12:53 PM

Sheep, how light do those Thompson Centers run?

I like the idea of a light ss singleshot in .270...whats optimum barrel length for a .270 wsm?

How exactly would you build the single shot if doing .270 wsm? Factory gun(which model)? or custom barrel on the thompson frame?

Why a bolt for the 300 wsm and not the other two?

#4 07-03-2007, 01:06 PM

Depending on the model...you can get the Encore down to just over 6 pounds naked although the Pro Hunters are heavier because of the longer barrel. As a single shot has no action, you can go with the long action calibres with no increase in weight. That's why I feel the 7STW would be perfect as it has ample ballistics with a sizeable projectile (better on windy days) and from all I've seen, it's super accurate, even with factory loads. There's no advantage to going to a short mag in a single shot as there is no action to save weight on. A .300 winchester mag will give identical performance to the .300 short mag. IMHO, you have way more calbres to choose from with a single shot as you don't have an action to contend with. I wouldn't go with a 270WSM in a single shot...only a bolt.

I'd go with the short mags in the bolt just because of the weight savings in the action and these calibres do seem to perform well out of 22 and 24 inch barrels. I don't think you'll match the performance of these short mags with any of the standard short calibres so why not go with the increased velocity and flatter trajectory.

If weight is of the ultimate concern, there are far more custom bolts available than there are singles and there are even loads of off the shelf bolts that make great sheep rifles. Personally, I just like the compact nature of a single but for most people, they are far more comfortable with a bolt.

Rackmastr · #5 07-03-2007, 01:06 PM

Any gun that you can carry up the mountain and shoot straight with works.....the 270 class, 270wsm, 7-08, 7wsm, 300's, etc, etc....they all work great..

You dont need to shoot 5-600 yards at sheep...and in fact it would be stupid to think you do. You need to get close enough to sheep to judge if they are legal or not. In your case, as a beginner, learning to judge sheep is more important than shooting at them from long range.

Any gun that can shoot accuratly and carry up a mountain and put through some elements will work great for sheep. For me, its my 7-08 LVSF in a McMillan stock with a 3.5-10x40 Leupy in Talley Lightweights....

#6 07-03-2007, 01:16 PM

In a perfect world Trev I agree with you but I've been on more sheep kills than I care to count and many of the shots have been over 300 yards. I just think that for someone building a dedicated sheep rifle, why not take advantage of some of the new calibres that make the odds of you pulling that shot off a whole lot better. Speed is your friend when shots stretch past 250 yards. Not saying you couldn't do it with the 7mm08 but it's a whole lot easier with more velocity. Judging a sheep at 500 plus yards through a spotting scope is no more difficult than it is at 50. If you aren't sure....don't shoot! But why not utilize the most up to date technology to stack the odds in your favour for that inevitable 300 yard shot. The question was about the "ideal" sheep rifle...not one that will get the job done.

Heck, I killed my last ram with a muzzleloader but I'd sure never recommend the .50 front stuffer as an ideal sheep calibre. I also didn't even mention the calibre that my favourite sheep rifle is (.25-06) as there are just so many more better choices today. It gets the job done just fine but is it "ideal" I don't think so.

Stinky Coyote · #7 07-03-2007, 01:29 PM

Whats your rig weigh Trev?

Stinky Coyote · #8 07-03-2007, 01:35 PM

Sako 85 finnlight sounds interesting but can't find specs on what it weighs. Guessing 6 1/4 for non wsm and 6 1/2 for wsms?

That kimber montana is published as 5 lbs 2 ounces in 7-08...could get that one scoped for under 6.5 lbs maybe? Thats a light rig! Haven't found anything lighter yet. Would be slick with a little 4x33 leupy and light rings eh?

But then again, maybe a bit more weight and in a .270 wsm with a bit more scope and learn it to a long ways out there.

If squeaker legal and have hard time judging at distance then will get closer but if obvious big boy and 600 yrds out, nice and calm, all the time in world to range and click....then that combo would be nice eh?

Hmmmm, this will be fun to think about.

#9 07-03-2007, 01:40 PM

If I were going with a fixed power scope on a sheep rifle, it would definitely be a 6 power.

No matter what rifle I was shooting, save for the .50 BMG (and at 27 pounds I'm not likely to be packing it for sheep), I wouldn't be taking a 600 yard poke at a sheep. Do you have any idea how big a ram would look in a 4x scope at 600 yards? The crosshairs would cover his entire vitals. You always get closer if you can. 300 yard shots are only for when you can't. 600 yard shots....never in my books.

Stinky Coyote · #10 07-03-2007, 01:54 PM

Holy, just checked winchesters site for some ballistics...that stw is a cooker with a high bc bullet to boot eh? I'm sure it would get your attention in a light gun! I like the 130 gr xp3 in .270 wsm at 3275 fps though...3000 ft/lbs gets it into 30-06 territory for recoil...sound like a good combo for sheep in a lighter sheep gun. The 7-08 looks pathetic in comparison...about 15" difference in drop at 500 yrds.

If never to shoot beyond 300 yrds though...the 7-08 would be just fine with a fixed 6 power!

I've played out to 500 yrds with my .204 and 400 with my .270 and don't find it too difficult to shoot well enough under decent conditions to those distances so far. I shot one 3 shot group at 300, then 400, then 500 with my .204 just determining drop to match to the bp reticle and it was a 2" group at 300, a 4" group at 400 and a 6" group at 500 and i wasn't really trying for a tight group. My partner had his tikka t3 in 25-06 there that day and his 3 shot at 500 was like 3 3/8" doing same thing. It shot a little better than my .204...probably a 1/2 moa gun where i'm like 3/4 with the .204 cz american...any rate. Didn't find it too hard. It was windy, we set up in a large open area on private land and tried to put the target as close to dead down wind as possible so we could stay on the board but we were surprised how easy it is to shoot distance if you just actually do it.

Since then after dead stands while calling coyotes in winter we'll take pokes at interest in the snow at ranged targets out to 600 yrds and i've been so close with the .204 that had it been a coyote it'd likely have died. So not sure why 300 would be the limit for a sheep if a guy and his gun were much more prepared for further and had the right conditions/opportunity etc.? Otherwise why bother with a short mag?

#11 07-03-2007, 02:01 PM

You're far more comfortable in your shooting ability than me. I'd never consider a 600 yard shot with any of my hunting rifles....especially with a 4x scope. I've shot a lot of super fast calibres over the years and have knocked two animals down at over 400 yards but have never even considered taking a shot at 600 or 500 for that matter. 300 yards is an awfuly long ways with an awful lot of room for error. When I take a shot, I want better odds than the animal "likely" dying. No doubt there are a few guys on this board capable of 500 yard shots but I'm not one of them....not with my hunting rifles in the field anyhow.

I think I'll just gracefully bow out of this conversation now!

Rackmastr · #12 07-03-2007, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

In a perfect world Trev I agree with you but I've been on more sheep kills than I care to count and many of the shots have been over 300 yards. I just think that for someone building a dedicated sheep rifle, why not take advantage of some of the new calibres that make the odds of you pulling that shot off a whole lot better. Speed is your friend when shots stretch past 250 yards. Not saying you couldn't do it with the 7mm08 but it's a whole lot easier with more velocity. Judging a sheep at 500 plus yards through a spotting scope is no more difficult than it is at 50. If you aren't sure....don't shoot! But why not utilize the most up to date technology to stack the odds in your favour for that inevitable 300 yard shot. The question was about the "ideal" sheep rifle...not one that will get the job done.

True there....shoot all the gun you can comfortably....and something that you can shoot accuratly and you can have a lot of fun. All personal choice on guns as long as you are really comfortable with it.

I agree judging sheep at 500 aint a pile different than at 50...I find it easiest at about 300 yards to judge. And like you, I'd never really shoot at a ram over 400 anyways so all is good with my 7-08. And ya....I guess 'ideal' is all personal choice...heh. For me...my 7-08 is ideal....

Stinky, not sure what mine weighs....havent weighed it yet.....

I guess my main point on the thread was since I know your skill level on sheep, its much more important to get out there and get in the mountains and learn about sheep before worryin too much about the rifle.....as a beginner I think there are more important things to worry about....

Stinky Coyote · #13 07-03-2007, 02:54 PM

Sheep Hunter, i didn't mean to stir anything up or start an argument and can see that i've stumbled blindly into a subject that can get a bit heated in a hurry.

I just gave my experiences with my first attempts at anything long and i was surprised that it wasn't as bad as i expected. We were laying prone in a field over a bi-pod and it didn't seem too hard is all i was saying. My buddy seems to be able to hold tighter groups than me consistantly and i forgot to mention that we were both shooting factory ammo(32 gr v-max hornady in .204 and partner was 130 gr win ballistic silvertips) and at 100 yrds i was holding about 1.25" give or take for 5 shots and he was always a bit tighter and his 25-06 really started to shine on the long stuff consistantly much tighter but even i seemed able to quickly wring out 3 shots in the moa territory all the way to 500...maybe this is generally more difficult than i initially found? Make shift range, in the field and in field conditions, 20k winds set to our back for the most part and no benches fyi....had a 4' high by 2' wide board and used the larger orange 200 yrd targets (two on the board stacked).

We shoot off shooting sticks for coyotes all the time and zero to 300 yrds we've had no trouble and since we learned to further we haven't had any opportunities to prove it or not but we always check after failed stands in the right valleys that allow it and we're there. We don't big game hunt with anything but our bows and just use the guns for the predators so i can't really say much more than that...maybe all that coyote practice will do the big game application good? Eitherway...you see alot of guys learning their guns to alot further these days(even on the hunting shows)...i keep hearing that 400 yrds is the new 300.

Not trying to start one of those discussions, just relaying my findings into longer stuff so far. No actual experience on big game stuff...i just know i will practice to those distances so the short stuff seems like a slam dunk and then a guy might be prepared for a long one if conditions right? I do same with bow, practice to at least 70 although i generally kill everything under 30 yrds.

I'm fine with trying to get close anyhow, its generally my gig, will just train to alot further though. Maybe the sheep in the mountains thing is much tougher due to wind issues etc.? Anyhow, will leave that lie but i was just assuming that one would want the extra zip from the wsm's etc. for the extended range opportunity? Otherwise the 7-08 would be perfect for 0-300 yrd stuff and even with a 4x scope but your right...a 6x would probably be a tad better...must have been reading some O'Conner recently.

Oh, i keep forgetting the scope thing. I'd be fine with 4x on anything to 300 yrds but we were shooting 9x for the longer stuff...partner had 10x. I guess i'm used to the coyote thing and they are small and i shoot most of mine on 3x as they are called in but i've not had time to dial up on many of my longer shots(250-300) so my logic is...if i can put a crosshair on a coyote to 250 yrds on 3x then a sheep to 300 with 4x shouldn't be a problem and i did comment that i'd put 'more scope' on a wsm for the longer stuff.

So my struggle is, 7-08 kimber type with lightweight scope going approx. 6.5 lbs dressed up or start at 6.5 lbs with a wsm then scope it and go from there. An easy 300 yrd choice or.... all that extra zip in the wsm should be much easier to connect well at 500 if needed? Peoples got to have some opinions on the guns/calibers and now 'ranges' of the options discussed here now!

#14 07-03-2007, 03:04 PM

Stinky, I vowed to stay out of this but one last comment. I'm not saying you can't do it because quite possibly you can but I personally don't own a rifle capable of shooting a one-inch group at 500 yards with silvertip bullets in a 20k wind and definitely not 32 grain bullets in a 20k wind even if you took the human factor out of the equation. You are most definitely in a very elite group of shooters.

Stinky Coyote · #15 07-03-2007, 03:18 PM

Trev, lol, yeah i know but its gun talk...can't get enough right! Don't worry, i got the other stuff covered, the only thing i need now is some miles, i've got all the theory dealt with, still reading every night too but don't feel a bit worried about my lack of desk time now. I know where to go, know what to look for, know about their habits blah blah blah...did more than just read too btw, have talked with many hunters, a few sheep hunters, and other mountain friends and have some good leads, tips, and areas i will explore the first few seasons...kind of hoping i don't just run out and kill one my first day as i want this anticipation to go on for awhile...it should as the new family thing really will keep me out of the field alot more so i can't condense things like i used to so i will have to learn patience. The gear is sorted and the training is happening...sometimes twice a day. Not up to gunslinger with his 5km twice a days with 60 lbs on his back but i plan to be alot lighter than that for my day trips but i'm 6 out of 7 days on cardio mixing up 6.5 k runs with 30-45 minutes on stairmaster plus weights....feeling pretty confident on the physical end. Not much i'm gonna be weak on...just the important stuff....experience.

p.s. i like your gun/cal choice, maybe i need two sheep rifles, a nice super light 7-08 like yours and one super whiz bang wsm laserbeam dialed in to 5000 yrds...just for fun!

Stinky Coyote · #16 07-03-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Stinky, I vowed to stay out of this but one last comment. I'm not saying you can't do it because quite possibly you can but I personally don't own a rifle capable of shooting a one-inch group at 500 yards with silvertip bullets in a 20k wind and definitely not 32 grain bullets in a 20k wind even if you took the human factor out of the equation. You are most definitely in a very elite group of shooters.

I meant moa being 1" for every 100 yrds. My 500 yrd group was 6"...a little over moa...and my 400 yrd was 4" so moa bang on and then 300 yrds was a 2" group so sub moa. I'd be competing if i could do 1" at 500 yrds lol! And the wind we put to our backs...chinook west wind. And we weren't really trying for groups, just trying to gauge our drop but our eyes were opened on the groups so we measure and documented them...my partners was 3 3/8 or something very close to that at 500...just 3 shot groups fyi but stands to reason if its moa at 100 then why wouldn't it still be at 500 if conditions (wind etc.) allow it? Seemed to work for us and we weren't trying...maybe thats why?

I don't feel like i should be in an elite group of shooters but i thought it was pretty decent...enough to make a poke at a hung up coyote in ideal conditions....sheeps alot bigger than a coyote no? I guess i'm just naive...but it reminds me of shooting the bow longer...once the projectile is gone it does its thing pretty consistantly...if conditions good (no side winds etc.) all your dealing with is a more drop for the range...didn't find it too hard to learn for the bow and first try with gun either. Didn't try for groups on the gun...just learned the drop but learned that the bullets were doing what the arrows do...just drop further...and open up a bit more as the distance increase....just didn't seem hard to me...didn't intimidate me either....all i can do is control the release which i'm not terrible at but not as good as i've witnessed either.

I should add...i wouldn't wing it on a long one..except coyotes and gophers...anyone can crusify my on that as i don't care...you do your thing and i'll do mine...i'm a tad more careful on the big game stuff but the varmints...don't even go there. I'd be pretty confident before i let it go. Ranged, using the right hash mark on the right power(or dialed...whatever), good conditions, steady as a rock...then yup...its on its way. But i'll have already practiced real world, won't be off a data sheet that should have the drop sorted etc...i shoot to those ranges to know the drop forsure...if i don't know what to do for a crosswind then time to get closer...no biggie....i know how to hunt and kill alot better than hunt and wound.

Stinky Coyote · #17 07-03-2007, 03:51 PM

I thought it was common that people are learning their guns to further and further ranges? Getting scopes that dial in or reticles that give you multiple aiming points to learn and take advantage of? I mean....why wouldn't you? I love to know where things hit at way further than i plan to hunt...you makes the short stuff easy...and then if you get the right opportunity you could possibly take advantage of it? Is this not common nowadays? Gun or bow for that matter...????

Bushrat · #18 07-03-2007, 04:41 PM

Once you get out beyond the first hundred yds wind can have a great effect on where your bullet lands. Wind at your back or face is one thing, it will only affect the elevation a bit as to where the slug will land, cross winds are another. e.g. a 100 grain .25 cal slug with a ballistic coefficient of say .400 which would represent your average boatail type slug shot out of a 25-06 at a velocity of 3300 fps. with only a 10 mph crosswind will drift approximately 6.5" @ 300yds., 12" @ 400yds., 20"@ 500yds., and 31" @600yds. Thats great if your shooting in a level farmers field with a consistent even wind from a stable 90 deg. side direction, not to hard to figure if you know the exact distance and wind speed. Now add in a few variables that you might find in the sheep hills where winds do wierd things and don't always blow in the same direction at the same time, the wind might be blowing from your right where your standing and 100 yds away in the gully your shooting over you might have an updraft or downdraft going in a completely different direction, then 250 yds past the bluff across the gully where the other valley joins might have a gusting wind barreling down it from another direction. Add to that you might be shooting steeply downhill or uphill which can have a huge effect on your trajectory generally causing you to overshoot your animal. You might have a sheep 450 yds away at a 45 degree angle up from you so you lets say your 25-06 100gr boatail @3300fps. is sighted 2.5" high at 100yds on a level shooting range and @ 450yds. its about 10" or 11" low at 450. So shooting uphill at a 45 deg. angle you hold the crosshairs 11" over the center of the chest and for some reason your bullet goes over the top of his back and 3 feet to the right cause of a 30 mile an hour wind ripping down the draw at 150 yds and you forgot that shooting uphill or down will cause your bullet to go high. The sheep was only 200 yards horizontal distance and thats what you should have held for instead of the 450yards actual distance he was uphill/downhil from you which varies depending on the deg. of angle

Unless your familiar with trajectory and how up/downhill angles and distances affect the bullets point of impact in relation to your crosshairs aimpoint at those angles, add in unknown winds, their angles and intensities its really a can of worms as to how to cypher out just where to hold your crosshairs when shooting long distance. The farther the distance the greater the variables and the effects they have.

Most importantly don't forget the effect that a 180" ram has an extreme effect on your minds ability to calculate for these variables when you have to shoot when your gasping for breath and your head, heart and nerves are going 10,000+ rpm, you think buck fever is bad, try sheep fever

Dick284 · #19 07-03-2007, 05:23 PM

Well put Bushrat.

nube · #20 07-03-2007, 05:40 PM

Sheep are wimpy. They are easy to put down but the thing is if they do get away on you chances are you won't find them that easily. I've killed 6 and only had one stand there after I hit it with the first round and it would have died quickly anyways. I've shot them with .270, 300 and 7mm stw. Sheep is right on for long distance with the STW but it weighs a bit for carrying shells around. Personally I don't worry about the weight of the gun. Really does it make a difference? I think not. The problem with the big guns is everyone thinks they can shoot long distance because they have a big gun. In reallity most guys in hunting situations can't shoot over 300 yards accurately enough. Someone said shoot the biggest calibr you can handle and go with it.
Most myrams have been shot around 250 yards but I have killed one at 442 and think that you should be able to shoot at least confidently to 400 yards to give yourself the best chance at a ram. For most guys the hard part is finding a legal one and you don't want it to get away after you do find one because you can't reach out and hit it accurately.

John Spartan · #21 07-03-2007, 06:08 PM

Just wondering how a 6.5x55 Swedish loaded with good 140 to 156 grain bullets would do?

#22 07-03-2007, 06:11 PM

I'm guessing a sheep hit in the lungs wouldn't know the difference.

John Spartan · #23 07-03-2007, 06:33 PM

TJ, I figured as much as it is the lightest and most accurate of the rifles I presently have.

#24 07-03-2007, 08:26 PM

On all of my sheep hunts I carried the same 7mmstw.It weighs around 9 pounds with scope and sling,but I feel so comfortable with this rifle that I don't mind the extra weight.As a little irony,I killed my only ram at 80 yards,so virtually any cartridge would have done a great job.I could have killed rams since,but I have decided not to kill another ram unless it is considerably larger than the old ram that I took on my second sheep hunt.I am still confident that someday,I just may kill a really good ram.In the meantime,I am content to just enjoy the scenery and the fresh air that only the mountains can provide.

depopulator · #25 07-03-2007, 09:41 PM

My M700 chambered in .280 Rem is the best sheep hunting gun/caliber (IMO)

The .280 Remington loaded with 140 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, and currently 140 grain Accubonds behind RL 19 is an ultra-long-range sheep slayer par excellence. Loaded in my customized remington M700 BDL DM weighing in at 7.5 lbs loaded, it has proven to be devastating on sheep (and everything else I have hunted with it).

If I could only have one gun, this would be it.

Short Round · #26 07-03-2007, 10:35 PM

Just thought I'd throw out my two cents, cause I'm in the process of buying a new rifle right now -- though I'm not sure yet if it's going to be a new sheep gun or not. But my sheep rifle is also my deer rifle, also my elk and moose rifle and plinking rifle -- but I digress.

Yes, light is king in sheep rifles. Personally, I was looking for a while at a Kimber 84M Montana in .260 (5.1 lbs) and the Remington Ti in 7mm RSAUM (5.5 lbs). I'm just not sure I can justify spending 1300 to save one pound.

I'll break it down: Current gun = 6.7 pounds (naked)
New gun that saves me 1.3ish pounds: $1300 plus tax
New Sleeping bag that saves me close to a pound: $280
New Spotting scope that saves 1.2 lbs: $440
New Pack that saves 1.5 lbs: $200
New Bivy Sack that saves .5 lbs: $200

So my point is, when applying a dollar value to amount of weight saved, the gun is the least efficient means of doing it: I can save 5 pounds of weight with new camping and spotting gear for less than I'd spend to save 1.2 pounds on a gun.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't get a new gun, or that if you can afford it, you shouldn't scoop a Kimber or a Ti or a NULA or something. I'm just saying that in my situation, it makes more sense to get a Tikka T3 in 25-06 at 6.25 and spend the 700 bucks I save on other gear that'll take more weight off my back.

As an added bonus, far more time after sheep (at least for me) is pre-season work, where you're not carrying a gun -- so weight savings in a rifle don't matter, wheras weight savings from gear do.

Finally, two words: Stainless Steel.

cohod · #27 07-03-2007, 10:52 PM

i've always used my 7mm rem mag the old boy uses a 7x57

its been a few years since I've been up in the high country not since I moved to AB

cohod

Rockymtnx · #28 07-03-2007, 11:42 PM

Ok guys don't laugh at me.

But I have been using a .300 Wby.
Fast & Flat with a 180gr TBBC. Even faster with the 165GR TBBC.
I guess the main reason is that it is the rifle I shoot best.

#29 07-03-2007, 11:48 PM

No reason to laugh there.....any of the fast .30 cals make great sheep guns and nice if you run into a grizz as well.

Stinky Coyote · #30 07-04-2007, 07:32 AM

oops, i goofed on my partners bullet weights...85 grain win ballistic silvertips for his tikka 25-06...been shooting my .270 a little too much lately...