Enough With the Mass Hysteria Already!

[score]

I won't comment on anywhere but where we hunt and there is little doubt that deer numbers are way down. We noticed it last season as well. Cameras confirm it, as does info from talking to the landowners.

Several years ago the area held a healthy population of Mulies. Saw 5 so far this year. Mulies had been declining for a while there.

Very few Whitetail and sign compared to past seasons.

Moose numbers seem to be ok as we are seeing as many as usual.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Didn't say anything about bucks chasing does or about moose. Just because a buck is playing around with a doe doesn't mean they are actually breeding. Mounting a doe and actually doing the deed is 2 different things. There is a reason why deer breed when they do, so that fawns aren't born to late or to early.
I am sure there are a few exceptions, but not enough to say that the rut is on.

I can't recall ever seeing a non-receptive Doe allowing a Buck to fully mount and penetrate.That buck I saw did the deed... an earlier Fawn in the making. There's a fair difference between the beginning of the rut period (breeding season)_ and the"peak rut" that occurs toward the end of November. If Deer are breeding, the rut is underway.Without any exceptions, Deer don't all breed during the"peak".There is a least a three week breeding period that leads up to the peak and another three or so that follow it. I guess that might explain seeing new fawns in early to mid May and other small spotted fawns as late as August - with the majority dropped in late May- early June.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Another one of these Dave? Your in the bush everyday and only found your first scrape a day ago? The Abysmal East side has had scrapes for a few weeks. I believe you said there were lots of deer where you hunt, so I wonder why the lack of sign? Maybe, as your thread suggests of other hunters, your not all that sure about your area?

Perhaps I should have been more specific when I said that I saw my first scrape. Yes, I've seen scrapes all summer but there are two types of scrapes. One is made by a buck marking the boundaries of his territory and could be just about anywhere. The other type are the ones that show up during the pre-rut and they have a branch hanging over them that the buck rubs his face on and leave scent from his tear glands (I think it is) and takes a pee in it. This is the important type of scrape that I was talking about and the buck will freshen an active scrape every day.

Originally Posted by Stinkhammer

Again what do you think is a lot of deer Dave?

When I'm driving around and I see deer in the most fields near a decent patch of bush that will hold them, that to me is a pretty good indication of there being plenty of deer around. If there is a doe with 2 fawn out feeding, how many more deer are still in the bush that you don't see? When there are herds of +10 deer on one quarter, that, to me, is a lot of deer. Wait until the rut kicks in this week and start counting road kills that you see. That's a pretty good indication as well.

Like I previously stated, I can't comment on what the deer are doing or what the populations are like province wide as each region is unique, nor can anyone else paint the entire province with the same brush based on what they aren't seeing in one or two areas.

IMO, there are so many deer in Alberta that a lot of people have never had to take the time to actually learn to read the deer sign. We are spoiled here and if we don't see 100/day out in the fields, the populations are down. I used to hunt bush deer in Ontario and if you didn't learn what I think are the basics of reading deer sign, (ie poop near bedding areas, types of scraps, the difference between a moose browsing in shrubs vs a deer doing it, etc) you'd probably be eating tag soup.

People can read what I've written and dismiss it as gobbly goop or they can research what I've offered and use it to their advantage. It doesn't really matter to me either way, as I have a meat buck hanging in the garage. Some of the posts remind me of "winter kill" threads in the Fishing section where a guy goes out to a pothole lake, doesn't catch anything and proclaims that the lake has winter killed when that's not the case at all.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Didn't say anything about bucks chasing does or about moose. Just because a buck is playing around with a doe doesn't mean they are actually breeding. Mounting a doe and actually doing the deed is 2 different things. There is a reason why deer breed when they do, so that fawns aren't born to late or to early.
I am sure there are a few exceptions, but not enough to say that the rut is on.

Well sorry guy but the rut is on. You can keep waiting at home till you think it starts but you are missing it, the rut lasts a long time, if you are just talking the actual breeding well then it's a smaller window, the pre-rut and post-rut are usually better times to hunt, it tough to drag them bucks away from a hot doe when they are chasing it which by the way turns into the breeding process. The rut doesn't last for a week, some does don't catch some don't cycle and some don't come into heat, then there is the second rut when the does that miss come around again as well as older fawns, it's a long process and it has definatly started!!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by crownb

Well sorry guy but the rut is on. You can keep waiting at home till you think it starts but you are missing it, the rut lasts a long time, if you are just talking the actual breeding well then it's a smaller window, the pre-rut and post-rut are usually better times to hunt, it tough to drag them bucks away from a hot doe when they are chasing it which by the way turns into the breeding process. The rut doesn't last for a week, some does don't catch some don't cycle and some don't come into heat, then there is the second rut when the does that miss come around again as well as older fawns, it's a long process and it has definatly started!!

I think that a lot of the problem lies with people's understanding of what pre-rut activity is and what rut activity is. My understanding is that during the pre-rut the bucks start sparring more vigorously, trashing trees/shrubs and start testing the does to see if they are receptive, but not necessarily chase them until they are like during the rut.

The first doe that goes into estrus triggers the actual rut and, as you stated, any doe that isn't bred during that period will be bred about 30 days later in December during a second, less intense rut.

It all comes down to an individual's thoughts about what the pre-rut and rut is and perhaps it is merely interpretation and terminology that is causing a disconnect with a lot of us.

[pottymouth]

Sitting 22y away from a 150 class buck....with some does in the back round. I saw over 50 whitetail today. Yesterday was on, close to 300 elk... all this in heavy hunted rifle zones... As soon as bucky sniffs me or steps on me, im off to do a little sheep searching...

Why is it the guys who usually get it done, aren't the ones ever complaining?

If it works stick with it...if its not, its in your hands, change something. ...

Btw..when you see bucks running all over, almost like the truck hunters do, driving all over on last day... thats the panic button being hit, before its all over....for both...

[58thecat]

Sitting 22y away from a 150 class buck....with some does in the back round.

Don't fart Potty.....

[trainerdave]

Synopsis of where I hunt in 220. This is on 10 quarter sections. Mule deer coming back, but way down from peak numbers. Two does with twins, 5 open does. One buck (nice one) observed "running like an elk " nose forward and striding, not the usual boingy boingy. Never seen that before, but obviously able to do it. Muleys: Use to see 20-25 does in a day and several bucks. Usually could find the bachelor herd of muleys first week.
Have not observed one whitetail. That was the biggest shock. Usually a couple of herds of White-tails and several age classes of bucks sneaking about. Observed 1 cow moose with a calf. Last year and 2 years ago I only saw 1 muley buck ,no muley does and a small herd of white tails. Always see a cow moose with 1 or 2 calves-so obviously there is a bull moose around somewhere.
Have refrained from harvest until I see more sign. I have not observed one coyote in 2 days. I have only put in 2 days, but I know this area extremely well and I have found no "Ground proofing" of Whitetails. All the hoof prints are big Mule deer hooves. There are a couple of pockets where I have not looked yet, but if I need to look that hard for white-tails, their numbers are way down.

Still fun to do some tracking!

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by crownb

Well sorry guy but the rut is on. You can keep waiting at home till you think it starts but you are missing it, the rut lasts a long time, if you are just talking the actual breeding well then it's a smaller window, the pre-rut and post-rut are usually better times to hunt, it tough to drag them bucks away from a hot doe when they are chasing it which by the way turns into the breeding process. The rut doesn't last for a week, some does don't catch some don't cycle and some don't come into heat, then there is the second rut when the does that miss come around again as well as older fawns, it's a long process and it has definatly started!!

I agree the pre rut is on and the actual rut is going to start any day now.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I can't recall ever seeing a non-receptive Doe allowing a Buck to fully mount and penetrate.That buck I saw did the deed... an earlier Fawn in the making. There's a fair difference between the beginning of the rut period (breeding season)_ and the"peak rut" that occurs toward the end of November. If Deer are breeding, the rut is underway.Without any exceptions, Deer don't all breed during the"peak".There is a least a three week breeding period that leads up to the peak and another three or so that follow it. I guess that might explain seeing new fawns in early to mid May and other small spotted fawns as late as August - with the majority dropped in late May- early June.

Congrats, you witnessed something that is not common.

If this happened everywhere we would have bucks running around for a full month, tongues hanging to the ground.

[slough shark]

Some areas the deer are doing very well, others ok, and others are terrible from what I've seen. Some of the primary areas I've hunted for years and done well out in eastern alberta (202) are absolutely terrible for the last couple years. I mainly walk and sit a ways from any road and my truck, see any sign of deer in the snow or see the deer themselves. I assure you I know if the deer are doing good or poor in a substantial portion of that zone and it is the worst I've seen out there. Other spots out west they are down a bit but not too bad, probably close to a normal/healthy population. I'd change my hunting areas and chase the high populations of deer but I really don't want to invest the time and effort into changing hunting areas. I already filled my elk tag and I've decided the deer could use a break so no does for me, time to find a big ol buck though!

[mark-edmonton]

Originally Posted by Salavee

HunterDave .. "In most of Alberta, with the exception of the most northern parts, the rut always starts during the third week of November when the first doe goes into estrus triggering it."

Please tell us more! Where did you come up with this?
The Buck I saw mounting a Doe on Nov 4 must have read an outdated calendar.

Lots of oddball theories on here. Most lacking much factual info.

There are always variances! The first moose I ever shot was on November 3 , 10 years ago! I watches him breed a cow before I shot him

[crownb]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

There are always variances! The first moose I ever shot was on November 3 , 10 years ago! I watches him breed a cow before I shot him

Yup every case is different

[Buzz001]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Boy, going through the Hunting section lately has been quite an adventure with people screaming about a lack of deer, getting rid of Sup doe tags, no rut happening, too many out of province hunters and on and on. It makes me wonder, but like those folk's knowledge of my hunting areas, I may have no intimate knowledge of the areas that they are hunting in.

Now, I don't claim to know what's going on in all WMU's, as I'm sure every region/WMU has it's unique issues, but when I read the negative comments about low deer populations in WMU's that I have intimate knowledge of, and I know differently, I have to wonder what guys are doing while hunting in those areas.

Here's a few tips that I'd like to throw out there:

I've watched deer coming out into the fields before last light for weeks and it only took one yardbird to drive around the edge of that same field ONCE during hunting season and the deer went nocturnal. The end result is that I now see fewer deer there.

The last hard winter that we had in this area was back in 2011 when there was a mid-winter thaw and then a freeze. This formed a crust on top of the deep snow that the deer had problems getting through but would hold up a coyote, and they had a field day feeding on the deer. The deer population has since bounced back.

Last year we had deep snow but no crust so the deer yarded up and were fine because, the past several years have been great growing seasons and the deer had plenty of food in the bush to eat and there wasn't a requirement to go out into the fields.

In most of Alberta, with the exception of the most northern parts, the rut always starts during the third week of November when the first doe goes into estrus triggering it.

Look, the more that something is repeated, the more that it becomes believable. Right now it sounds like some people are quick to jump on the bandwagon without really thinking about what's actually happening. How about everyone take a few breaths and figure things out before blaming everything and their dog for not seeing deer?

BTW, I'm in the bush everyday and I saw my first scrape of the season today.

sounds like you got it all figured out. you should be getting paid for all this expert knowledge. I've been seeing scrapes since late October and yes I do hunt in a dismal area for deer population. so it makes me wonder just how are you hunting oh wise one. don't be so quick to think your the one with all the answers, people don't like to be told they're wrong or are doing something wrong . I hope for the ungulates of Alberta nobody repeats and believes what you just claimed, so everybody doesn't turn a blind eye to what's going on. I am also out everyday from opening of bow season till the end of November. so I have a fairly strong grasp of the population in my area. the last hard winter was in fact 2013/14 winter with well over 3 feet of snow that stuck around well into march and April. now if your some of the lucky people in awesome areas or haven't seen any change in game numbers that's awesome. there are areas that are changing from how they used to be and that's a fact proven by the people who live there and hunt there or even farm there. just because its not on paper or a study hasn't been done or your own hunting area is still good doesn't mean that all is well. do not judge lest ye be judged.

[crownb]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

Congrats, you witnessed something that is not common.

If this happened everywhere we would have bucks running around for a full month, tongues hanging to the ground.

I believe you said I doubt that he saw the breeding process, now you are congratulating him!!!

[crownb]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

I agree the pre rut is on and the actual rut is going to start any day now.

Tell that to all the does walking around right now with sore back sides!!!

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by grinr

This^^
Tip of the day....if your not seeing any/many deer,try getting out of yer truck and taking a hike.


C'mon Cat,that's a 40 day window you posted, pretty hard to nail down peak breeding date by that.
Fwiw,whitetail gestation period is 198 days give or take.
Fwiw,the "rut" is never late nor early,the peak breeding date is ALWAYS the same Nov.25 give or take a day or two,well documented by biologists that collect,study and weigh fetuses from roadkilled doe and backdate to determine breeding date.

Not all the does come into estrus at the same time, that is why it's an extended period of time.
Cat

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Buzz001

sounds like you got it all figured out. you should be getting paid for all this expert knowledge. I've been seeing scrapes since late October and yes I do hunt in a dismal area for deer population. so it makes me wonder just how are you hunting oh wise one. don't be so quick to think your the one with all the answers, people don't like to be told they're wrong or are doing something wrong . I hope for the ungulates of Alberta nobody repeats and believes what you just claimed, so everybody doesn't turn a blind eye to what's going on. I am also out everyday from opening of bow season till the end of November. so I have a fairly strong grasp of the population in my area. the last hard winter was in fact 2013/14 winter with well over 3 feet of snow that stuck around well into march and April. now if your some of the lucky people in awesome areas or haven't seen any change in game numbers that's awesome. there are areas that are changing from how they used to be and that's a fact proven by the people who live there and hunt there or even farm there. just because its not on paper or a study hasn't been done or your own hunting area is still good doesn't mean that all is well. do not judge lest ye be judged.

Two things that I never claimed.....

1. I don't know what is happening in ALL areas of Alberta, only the areas that I frequent and hunt/trap in. Based on the screaming about ending the sup doe tags, there are people on this forum that think they do know what is happening province wide. With your "blind eye" comment, you sound like one of them. Would you like to tell me about the deer population in the areas that I frequent that you know absolutely nothing about?

2. I never claimed to be an all knowing deer ninja. The points that I made are, for me anyway, the absolute basics of deer hunting 101. If someone doesn't even know when the rut is, how do they decide what week to take off of work....by throwing darts at a board?

The deep snow last year didn't kill deer, there was plenty of forage where they were yarded up last winter, especially with the excellent growing seasons that we've had in the past 3 years. If they don't have to travel through deep snow to get to hay bales in the middle of a field, then they won't. If the snow is deep for deer, then it's deep for predators as well (ie coyotes). The problem happens when there is a mid winter thaw and then a freeze that creates a crust on top of the deep snow that the coyotes can run on top of like we had back in 2011.

There's no need to wonder how I hunt, just ask and I'll tell you. I watch the deer all summer and by hunting season I know how many deer are in a certain area, and where and when they are entering the field. Once hunting season opens I wait for the right conditions (ie wind direction) and I go out and sit about 100m downwind of where they enter the field. When the right one steps out then I shoot it. I could fancy it up for you if you want but that's pretty much it.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Saw a mule buck full on mounting a doe today....lip curled and weapon at the ready

Lc

[Bushleague]

I think with the wolf population on the rise deer are simply not hanging out where they used to. Last year was the toughest season of my life, this year I've seen more deer than ever even though I don't think the deer population has gone up. The big difference is that I changed the way I hunt, the cutlines, cutblocks, and bush roads are all tracked up with wolf sign. So this year I just used a topo map... find ridges, saddles, fingers... don't even worry about what's cut and what's not. Sure enough, less wolves and more deer.

Like the OP I cant speak for all WMU's, but before you cry wolf try changing your approach and the kinds of terrain that you are hunting. For me at least it was a the big fat golden ticket to some of the most exciting days of hunting I've had in a long time.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

The deep snow last year didn't kill deer, there was plenty of forage where they were yarded up last winter, especially with the excellent growing seasons that we've had in the past 3 years. If they don't have to travel through deep snow to get to hay bales in the middle of a field, then they won't. If the snow is deep for deer, then it's deep for predators as well (ie coyotes). The problem happens when there is a mid winter thaw and then a freeze that creates a crust on top of the deep snow that the coyotes can run on top of like we had back in 2011.

.

Trust me, the deep snow here killed deer! Numbers are certainly down, fawn crop is also pretty poor, quite surprised how many dry does are running around. I will say this years fawns are sure in good shape though, just not a lot of them. I don't have to travel out of town to see this, I don't live in town. I see it every day. No doubt about it, last winter was tough on deer, even in this area.