Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Guns & Ammo Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 07-04-2007, 07:53 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
Most importantly don't forget the effect that a 180" ram has an extreme effect on your minds ability to calculate for these variables when you have to shoot when your gasping for breath and your head, heart and nerves are going 10,000+ rpm, you think buck fever is bad, try sheep fever
Bushrat, i get this feeling when i have a whitetail buck i decide to take coming my way while in stand and everytime i have a called coyote in range...forget or are too afraid to breath...adrenaline making you feel like your about to spontaneously combust...yeah i know the feeling but i'm lucky in that i seem to have a good 'auto-pilot' when this is happening as i usually have to think about 'how did i pull that off?' and play it back in my mind afterwords as i certainly don't seem conscious about it at the time its all happening. For some reason though when i'm stalking muleys i don't get near as revved up...i get super focused and determined but the adrenaline thing isn't a factor really...must be a time related thing?

Time will tell if its worse on the sheep thing?

Nice gun depopulator!

Short Round, i understand your comments completely, this wouldn't be a dollar related purchase...purely a 'want' type purchase...i'd have to wait awhile too so i'm happy i have a tikka in .270 that shoots well and is 8 lbs without ammo. P.s. i bought some pretty top end gear for this mountain hunting stuff anyhow, want to be ultra capable and light on my back for the long daytrip type stuff...so fun to think about having a rifle totally dedicated to this is all...people have needed alot less reason than taking up a new critter to hunt to get a new rifle ya know.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-04-2007, 07:56 AM
catnthehat's Avatar
catnthehat catnthehat is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Holy, just checked winchesters site for some ballistics...that stw is a cooker with a high bc bullet to boot eh? I'm sure it would get your attention in a light gun! I like the 130 gr xp3 in .270 wsm at 3275 fps though...3000 ft/lbs gets it into 30-06 territory for recoil...sound like a good combo for sheep in a lighter sheep gun. The 7-08 looks pathetic in comparison...about 15" difference in drop at 500 yrds.

If never to shoot beyond 300 yrds though...the 7-08 would be just fine with a fixed 6 power!

I've played out to 500 yrds with my .204 and 400 with my .270 and don't find it too difficult to shoot well enough under decent conditions to those distances so far. I shot one 3 shot group at 300, then 400, then 500 with my .204 just determining drop to match to the bp reticle and it was a 2" group at 300, a 4" group at 400 and a 6" group at 500 and i wasn't really trying for a tight group. My partner had his tikka t3 in 25-06 there that day and his 3 shot at 500 was like 3 3/8" doing same thing. It shot a little better than my .204...probably a 1/2 moa gun where i'm like 3/4 with the .204 cz american...any rate. Didn't find it too hard. It was windy, we set up in a large open area on private land and tried to put the target as close to dead down wind as possible so we could stay on the board but we were surprised how easy it is to shoot distance if you just actually do it.

Since then after dead stands while calling coyotes in winter we'll take pokes at interest in the snow at ranged targets out to 600 yrds and i've been so close with the .204 that had it been a coyote it'd likely have died. So not sure why 300 would be the limit for a sheep if a guy and his gun were much more prepared for further and had the right conditions/opportunity etc.? Otherwise why bother with a short mag?
Try it with a sheep rifle affter humping your but for about 1/2 mile up a mountain in thin air with a big ol' ram at about 437 yrads.
That is , AFTER you range it and check your come ups.

I've heard this stuff regularly, and have talked to llots of fellas who say they an do it, but have a hard time makimng the shot when real World conditions prevail.
i've seen world class compeitors make costly mistakes on the range, so it can happen in the field.
That is why one would want to get as close as possible.
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-04-2007, 08:09 AM
Kutenay Kutenay is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 481
Default

One of the men I learned to shoot from was the late Joe Gibeault, an Inspector with the BC Fish and Wildlife Branch, who was the World Champion at Bisley during the mid-late '60s, a superb custom riflebuilder and a hunter of enormous experience and success in the "glory days"of BC hunting. He was one of several genuine experts I had the privilege of learning about guns, shooting and hunting from as a beginner.

He used to tell us various gunnuts who hung around a certain gunstore in my hometown that longrange shooting at game animals was not his idea of how things should be done and advise us against it. During those years and later, I would spend months every year, working and living solo in wild sheep country and I have seen many of them, yet, I have not seen a necessity to shoot at extreme ranges, either in BC or AB.

The very experienced riflemen on this thread, guys like Stubby and Cat, do not seem to be very keen on longrange sniping at game, neither am I as I have seen too many wounded and lost animals. Even with a .300 Roy, a 7STW, a .264 Win. or other longrange cartridge, I consider 400 yds. a very long shot and would only attempt it under ideal conditions which, as Cat indicates, seldom happen in sheep mountains.

I used to shoot 2=300 bigbore rounds every week at the old Barnet Rifle Club here at Vancouver, regularly held .5moa at 200 yds. and could put five quick shots, offhand-freestyle, into 4" at 100 yds., consistently. I still think that extreme-range sniping is not a wise idea in game hunting and won't try it.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-04-2007, 08:47 AM
Bull Shooter Bull Shooter is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kutenay View Post
The very experienced riflemen on this thread, guys like Stubby and Cat, do not seem to be very keen on longrange sniping at game, neither am I as I have seen too many wounded and lost animals.
Here, Here! I appreciate all of your comments, candour and experience in the discussion of long-range shots. As I have never been sheep hunting (yet) I can add nothing of real substance to the immediate discussion but the issues and challenges of long-range shots overlaps hunting of all species. It is proper that we recognize the tremendous amount of variables that may negatively affect such shots. I note, with some irony, that many of you with vast shooting experience and knowledge of external ballistics tend to be more cautious than those who spend an hour per year at the range.

I purchased a Sako Finnlight 75 in 280 Remington for the day I finally get drawn for sheep. Regards, Mike
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-04-2007, 08:58 AM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

Man I love not having to jump into the LR hunting frey again, between Sheephunter, Bushrat, Cat's and Kuteney's post I see no need to provide and echo effect in comments(been there done that). Nice to see BTW.

As for gun weight, well I have a 7.4lb, 284Win(rifle, scope sling, and 3 rnds of ammo) that would be my personal prefrence if I ever intended to go sheep hunting(which I don't)
I also have a barley sub 8lb.(7.875lb) 300WSM(24" bbl) in a stock Savage 11FL, scoped with a 4200 Elite 2.5-10, in Millett turn in rings, evertything else is stock including the iron sights.
I surmise that a similar short action rifle in say 7mm-08(22" bbl), without sights and topped with a compact Leupy in Tally rings would likely tip the scale at around the same weight or a touch lighter than my 284.
$550.00 rifle, $100 mounts, and $450.00 for glass.
$1100.00 + tax and there you have it sheep medicine.
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-04-2007, 09:02 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
I still think that extreme-range sniping is not a wise idea in game hunting and won't try it.
I prolly won't have the need either.

Not to say i won't learn what me and my gun is capable of 'just in case'.

And yes, after a dead stand when we are taking those 500 yrd shots at points of interest in the snow (twig, small rock, etc.) we haven't likely moved in at least 25 minutes and we know to get real comfy before we start calling as nothing worse than having to shuffle around because of legs falling asleep etc. and we always sitting with backs up against something and using shooting sticks.

I understand what many of you are saying...i'm not going to run up a mountain and without rest to catch my breath and then freehand a maybe legal sheep at 600 yrds lol. I think yall are gettin the impression i'm reckless or something...not so....cocky yes...reckless no.

All the gun shooting i've done in past 5 years has been dedicated to coyote hunting. Small critter, small kill zone. I don't freehand anything, i like hitting things where i aim, i'm a stationary target kind a guy. I'm not bad at stalking critters either...kinda used to being very close anyhow(30 yrds or less for my big game as i bowhunt only and i kill 90% of my coyotes inside 150 yrds)...but i still like to prepare as if the CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT then at least you have options....thats all i'm trying to say....and i think alot more guys are doing the same...prepare prepare prepare...might as well do the same for shooting also right...why leave that out when you prepare to the full extent on everything else?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-04-2007, 09:14 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
I note, with some irony, that many of you with vast shooting experience and knowledge of external ballistics tend to be more cautious than those who spend an hour per year at the range.
I know that wasn't aimed at me lol.

I practice alot and have learned alot. I'm about as far as you can go with factory guns and ammo before stepping into reloading and custom guns going for that 1/2 moa or less stuff and scopes that you can click etc. I have access to a private land range 15 minutes from my house on west side of Calgary(that i use alot) and a ton of land in same areas to set up as far as i want. I'm far from the average big game guy who only pulls his gun out come hunting season and probably doesn't even recheck his zero...coyote hunting demands you and your guns are ready to play at all times.

Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 07-04-2007 at 09:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-04-2007, 09:30 AM
sheephunter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
I note, with some irony, that many of you with vast shooting experience and knowledge of external ballistics tend to be more cautious than those who spend an hour per year at the range.
I don't see any irony there at all.....sometimes common sense is a direct result of experence...lol Know what you meant though and you are right on the money. Sometimes wisdom does come with age...not always but in this case I'd say yes.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-04-2007, 09:36 AM
Bull Shooter Bull Shooter is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
I know that wasn't aimed at me lol.

Stinky, au contraire my friend! You are obviously very interested in long-range shooting/hunting, you are educating yourself, practicing and recognizing the importance of quality equipment all of which should give you both confidence and consistency. That’s admirable. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you will be a long range shooter but it should help in defining both your own personal limitations and the limitations of your equipment. For the record, I am not a long range shooter or hunter. Regards, Mike
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-04-2007, 09:53 AM
sheephunter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

While there has been much talk of ballistics and shooting ability, the one glaring ommision here has been optics and I think your inexperience showed through greatly Stinky with comments about using a 4x and 6x scope for 600 yard shooting. There is a reason that long-range bench shooters use high magnification optics....so they can pick the same point of aim consistently. While you might be able to throw a one-inch group at 100 yards with a 9x scope, I'll guarantee that doesn't translate to a 6" group at 600 yards. With a 9x scope at 600 there is no way to accurately pick a point of aim three times in a row. Your crosshairs would be covering several inches of the target so just aiming at the same spot each time would be impossible

Take a 4x scope scope out side and sight on something 600 yards away and tell me how you can expect to pick a precise point of aim. At that range about as accurate as you could get would be aiming somewhere in the middle of the body. No matter how good of a shooter you are or how zip zoomie fast your calibre, optics become the limiting factor for shooting tight groups at extreme ranges. Add hold over into that equation and your shot is just plain irresponsible. How are you going to precisely judge holdover with a scope whoes crosshairs are the equivilant to a couple feet thick at 600 yards. You can't.

You said yourself that you are cocky and I couldn't agree more but I think you need to temper that with some common sense and real world experience. You have virtually no big game hunting experience with a rifle yet you are ready to run up a mountain and take a 600 yard poke at a sheep. The most gut wrenching sight in the world is watching a wounded ram run over a ridge.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 07-04-2007, 10:09 AM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

X hair size aside.
Unless your investing major coin in optics, long bomb shot are mostly blind luck, since most low and mid price range scopes have so much parralax and other optical anomilies that precise placement of shots out to the ranges being discused here are shere folly, and border on reckless.(WRT to game)
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 07-04-2007, 10:20 AM
sheephunter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The problem too Stinky, is that I don't think you appreciate the difficulty in locating a legal ram. They aren't like mule deer does where if you miss or wound one, they'll be another around the next ridge. The last Stone sheep hunt that I was along on, it was day 18 before we spotted a legal ram. This was 18 days of living out of a backpack....enduring some of the most brutal conditions possible. To make a long story less long......we spent 6 hours getting within 370 yards of the ram but couldn't get any closer. So rather than take the high risk shot and watch 18 days or work run away, we waited several more hours until the ram got within 307 yards. Even at that range there was much deliberation as to whether to take the shot.

In the end we killed the ram but most likely because we waited for the shot we did. Sure we could have flung a 600 yard shot at the ram and watched it run away along with 18 days of toil. You might only get one shot at a big ram in your life and I know for me anyhow, I wouldn't be willing to take any shot other than one I was 100% certain was going to connect. I've backed out of basins to return the next day because we couldn't get closer than 400 yards to rams. Once you hunt them for a while, you'll appreciate what a trophy they are and all the work and preparation required to finally kill one.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 07-04-2007, 10:26 AM
Kutenay Kutenay is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 481
Default

Both Sheeohunter and Dick284 are right on here and I currently have Leupolds, over a dozen, highend B&Ls and Redfields plus Zeiss scopes on my rifles, of which I have 32 at present. I frequently shoot with Swaro, S&B, Zeiss and Kahles scopes beonging to my best bud's and STILL do not like this longrange sniping at living, feeling animals.

I used to shoot my first Pre-64 Mod. 70 Alaskan-.338 Win. at a rock about 2.5x2 ft. exactly placed at the 500 yard target frame at the Nelson, BC rifle range. I used a Kollmorgen 2.75X Bearcub scope and usually Hornady 225s, the original version, over 72-IMR-4350 in WW cases with CCI 250s; I VERY SELDOM missed that rock, even offhand in front of witnesses. BUT, rocks are not rams, although many have been mistaken for such!

Now, as to offhand shooting at sheep, the simple fact is that RMBH sheep in BC ARE timber sheep and, inn hunting season, SELDOM are far from heavy cover. SO, once you ahve actually found a legal ram, you may well HAVE to shoot him offhand AND this is not as easy as shooting at inaminate targets at any distance.

For sheep hunting, my current choice is a Zeiss Conquest 3x9 scope with a Zeiss Conquest 4x on my backup rifle. I don't like 30mm tubes and got rid of my Leupy LPS on my Dakota 76-.338 due to that, each to his own. This year,we will be hunting Calis and my .338s are going on the trip, it si in Grizzly country and I feel better with the bigger rifles.

I was just shooting with another old geezer like me at Mission Range, he is a retired commercial charter pilot/owner from the NWT, has hunted/shot sheep all over, even in Mongolia and knows his stuff from EXPERIENCE. H prefers his .340 Weatherby with 225s to knock ém down right now and uses a 3x9 scope, some of his pics are on the Americcana Outfitters site.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 07-04-2007, 10:28 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
Stinky, au contraire my friend! You are obviously very interested in long-range shooting/hunting, you are educating yourself, practicing and recognizing the importance of quality equipment all of which should give you both confidence and consistency. That’s admirable. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you will be a long range shooter but it should help in defining both your own personal limitations and the limitations of your equipment. For the record, I am not a long range shooter or hunter. Regards, Mike
Right on. For the record i have no record...just kidding. The only big game animals i killed with a gun were when i was a kid. I didn't get along well with scopes for some reason(something to do with how much time i spent on end of iron sighted .22) so when i tried a rem 700 in 30-06 with iron sights and did a 3" group at a 100 yrds they took me hunting(couldn't do jack with a scoped 308 they tried me with). 3 shots later i had two whitetails (one a 6x6 164 gross) and a black bear (20 11/16")...the bear was the longest shot at a bit over 115 to 125 yrds all boiler room drt kills.

Then took up the bowhunting about 5 yrs ago for big game and guns for coyotes...didn't take long before the old 30-06 was retired for more accurate and appropriate calibers as the first coyote got it in the face at 75 yrds with 150 gr hornady light mag....kerrrr splat! Didn't like what i was seeing at the range either...so many guns later i have a little cz american in .204 that will do 5 into 3/4 with factory 32 gr v-max and about 4030 fps over my chrony...love this little gun...my two long coyotes with it so far were 235 and 285 yrds, both bang flops and both hit exactly where i aimed with a 1.5" high at 100 yrd zero....the 285 yrd one was early sept before the archery opener and i was itching to get some blood on the little cz...it was a first year female (very small) and i guessed her to be about 350 as no time to range so i held just below spine sort of thing and thats where i hit her....ranged it afterwords.

The .204 is a flatster...i can hold on very small points of interest in the snow at 330 yrds and you can be watching and i take them out....reality is i'm probably about 1.5"-ish low but it looks like a direct hit as my partner and myself can both watch impacts in scope (light kicker)...pretty neat to see what you can do at distance if you start shooting at distance. Your still on fur at 350 with the .204.

I had a .223 that shot 1/2 moa but single shot and just not what i thought was ideal calling gun. I had a tikka varmint in .204 and it was 1/2 moa too but too heavy for my tastes as a calling gun...much better for the wide open country coyote hunter so sold that. I had a tikka t3 lite in .243 that shot the lights out also but got bored and sold it. Decided i need to have a decent all-around centerfire for chasing bigger predators or if ever to hunt big game with gun again someday...so bought the tikka .270 and its not as accurate as my .243 was but its no slouch, it will make me happy for coyote hunting so thats more than enough for big game....i'm guessing it can do 5 into moa easy but my hands generally shoot 5 into 1.5 with its favorite ammos....those bigger holes aren't as easy to moa as the little .204 or the .17 hmrs i've had quite a few of too. Which brings me to .17 hmrs, have two of them and sold a couple others....and am 17 for 17 on coyotes with just that caliber fyi...small groups...small critters....small kill zones....i'm all over it like a duck on a june bug!

I'll also know exactly where my .270 hits at 3,4, & 500 yrds compared to where the ballistic plex reticle chart says its supposed to hit for my burris scope by the time sheep season starts(the charts get you close but i like to know exactly)....plus what groups sizes i do at those ranges to determine what some limits might be.....for the 'just in case' some magical situation arises with the right conditions and the right ram and it all falls within what i'm comfy with then wammo blammo thank you mammo.

But it'll probably be more like the guy with the stw and the 80 yrd shot in reality...can't say i won't be ready though.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 07-04-2007, 10:37 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
The problem too Stinky, is that I don't think you appreciate the difficulty in locating a legal ram. They aren't like mule deer does where if you miss or wound one, they'll be another around the next ridge. The last Stone sheep hunt that I was along on, it was day 18 before we spotted a legal ram. This was 18 days of living out of a backpack....enduring some of the most brutal conditions possible. To make a long story less long......we spent 6 hours getting within 370 yards of the ram but couldn't get any closer. So rather than take the high risk shot and watch 18 days or work run away, we waited several more hours until the ram got within 307 yards. Even at that range there was much deliberation as to whether to take the shot.

In the end we killed the ram but most likely because we waited for the shot we did. Sure we could have flung a 600 yard shot at the ram and watched it run away along with 18 days of toil. You might only get one shot at a big ram in your life and I know for me anyhow, I wouldn't be willing to take any shot other than one I was 100% certain was going to connect. I've backed out of basins to return the next day because we couldn't get closer than 400 yards to rams. Once you hunt them for a while, you'll appreciate what a trophy they are and all the work and preparation required to finally kill one.
Thats how i hunt too. You either have the confidence at the time or you don't, bow or gun, varying conditions etc. etc. and if i don't i don't wing it...unless its a coyote or a gopher(if i've missed a coyote i'll keep shooting as long as i can...still haven't scored but aint changing my style...its vermin)....but something other than vermin i take a lot more seriously....i'm a good tracker too but hate it so i feel the 100% before i let it rip too. I'm not telling how far that might be in sheep hunting for me but i will know lots about what i can do under ideal conditions to 500 yrds as it's good practice and good info to have. And i agree that i don't know what sheep hunting is like yet so i'm sure we are all on the same page as i have to feel it 100% or i'm not shooting and hoping for the best...i have no idea what range it will be for each situation but i'll be well practiced to 500 under ideal conditions....will probably never shoot one over 200 yrds though...i like the sure thing much more than my discussions seem to be letting on!
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 07-04-2007, 10:41 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
While there has been much talk of ballistics and shooting ability, the one glaring ommision here has been optics and I think your inexperience showed through greatly Stinky with comments about using a 4x and 6x scope for 600 yard shooting.
Well i generally meant the 4 or 6x for a 300 yrd 7-08 sheep gun...i don't own a fixed power scope.......i've done all my 4-500 yrd shooting at 9x with bp reticle fyi and if really taking that serious then i wouldn't use less scope than that. Hopefully we have that straight now.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 07-04-2007, 10:49 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
yet you are ready to run up a mountain and take a 600 yard poke at a sheep
Freehand don't forget and....without taking a minute to catch my breath either!

Sheep, your starting to remind me of my wife, reading so much more into the things i'm saying than is actually there.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 07-04-2007, 10:52 AM
sheephunter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I knew there was a reason that I vowed to stay out of this.....need to listen to my own advice next time.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 07-04-2007, 11:09 AM
Rockymtnx's Avatar
Rockymtnx Rockymtnx is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 8,815
Default

Some of you know that I am lucky enough to have a 700 yard + range at my house. I do a lot of shooting from 100 to 300 yards. At three hundred yards using a multi-x reticle (med - fine) on a 16X scope. The crosshairs cover an entire 4.33" standard clay pigeon. With my 24X scope you I hardly notice the pigeon sticking out on either side of the fine cross hairs.
Consistency is few and far between on a 24" target at 600 yards.
__________________
Rockymtnx

www.dmoa.ca

Pro Staff member for:
Benelli, Sako, Beretta, Tikka, Franchi, Burris, & Steiner
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 07-04-2007, 11:11 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Sheep your right about the 600 yrd stuff though 9x would be a minimum for me. When i had the tikka .204 out on its one and only coyote hunt i had a dead stand and hadn't shot distance with it yet so i took 3 shots to find which hash mark to use on the 14x leuply lr with vh reticle to connect with a mole hill at 608 yrds. The next three shots all connected on the mole hill within 6" of each other...not a big mole hill either. Had i already known which hash mark to use then all 6 would have been in there. Sold the gun the following week...just a bit clumsy for the kind of coyote hunting i like to do. Yes, it was a mole hill, not a coyote, not a sheep, but this long stuff isn't really that difficult...its like nike...just do it. Never know, might come in handy someday. Heck, i use a bp reticle on a .17 hmr now and have it figured to 300 yrds, not hard to hit the same clump of horse poop out to 250 shot for shot once the hash mark was learned...dial up to 9x, range target, check your wind and away you go. Now am i saying i'd go taking those shots at a sheep...probably not...probably would at a coyote if already pre-learned the hash mark...wind was super light...just had to hold to the one side of the mole hill...just saying that might as well be prepared...they were merely 'learning' shots....just target practice.

So here we are...talking the virtues of the super fast magnums and not even practicing to beyond 300 yrds? Not even acknowledging that much more is possible under the right conditions? What is that? Why bother with a magnum then? A 7-08 is plenty to 300 yrds, energy and trajectory, not much to learn there? I don't set my limits that way. I'll practice to as far as i can learn any tool and then use my head to use it appropriately afield...can't remember last thing i wounded by being irresponsible. I wait for the right shot opportunites and generally my game is well inside my comfort ranges...probably inside the first 1/3rd of my comfort ranges so don't worry too hard about me making any mistakes out there at this point....as i said many times...i will be ready for much more than what i expect.

Whats this about paralax others are mentioning? If you shoot the same power and use the given hash mark you've already proven for a given range are you saying that can change somehow? I've not noticed that at all shooting my .204 with a 3-9x40 burris ff2 with bp reticle. When i pick a target in the snow at 500 one day i hit the same place the next day. Do clarify...i don't change anything up...i learn it and use it exactly the same way and it hits the same(how else to have confidence?) so not sure what your meaning there?
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 07-04-2007, 11:18 AM
sheephunter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
but this long stuff isn't really that difficult...its like nike...just do it
Think I'll pass!

300 yards is long stuff as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe too many years of crawling on my belling through a swamp looking for a wounded bear or clawing my way across a cliff in search of a wounded goat or watching the ram of a lifetime run over a ridge after a miss. All courtesy of cocky hunters that could knock the eye out of a mouse at 500 yards. I'll take a hunter that can knock the lungs out of a sheep at 200 yards thankyou. Give me a hunter that says he isn't comfortable over 250 yards and we are going hunting!

Last edited by sheephunter; 07-04-2007 at 11:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 07-04-2007, 11:26 AM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
I knew there was a reason that I vowed to stay out of this.....need to listen to my own advice next time.
Oh come on...just givin a little back. All in good fun TJ, don't take it too serious...was meant to lighten things a bit.

Honestly...see my post about shooting the mole hill at 608 ranged yrds. Just from experience shooting the bp reticle on 9x with my other .204 i knew roughly which hash mark to try first and by shot 3 i was there. Remember, i can watch impacts in scope with .204....then the next 3 shots all connected. So tell me...how hard can it be? I'm not going to believe i'm or talented or gifted because honest to god i'm not finding it as difficult as people make it out to be. Start shooting long in the field like that and you start to learn what to do...i don't see the big deal here....if 600 can be done half decent then a 500 under ideal conditions isn't out of the question imo. No different than 300 being kind of a limit for a guy who doesn't practice to any further...stays with what he knows...well if a guy knows further then whats the big deal? Guys, this long stuff isn't that hard, just go do it and you'll see for yourself.

Rockymtnx with your 700 yrd range...what are your 4-500 yrd groups like please?

Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 07-04-2007 at 03:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 07-04-2007, 11:34 AM
Bull Shooter Bull Shooter is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default

Stinky, let me say this: If you actually believe the long stuff “isn’t really that difficult”, then you are either one of the most blessed, innate shooters on the planet or you still have miles to go in your education. Seriously, are you just “jonesing” for comments? If not, I am very envious of your abilities. Regards, Mike
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 07-04-2007, 11:37 AM
sheephunter
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Stinky...just look at the words you use when talking about long range shoting...half decent, usually, likely. Those aren't words in my vocabulary before I pull the trigger on any animal.

You have the cockiness that comes with youth and if tempered it can be a wonderful thing but when it can't be, it's a dangerous thing. Most of your comments demonstrate your obvious lack of experience. You have a rudimentary understanding of firearms and ballistics but that's where it ends. You have a lot to learn my friend and there are some very knowledgeable shooters on here trying to help you but you aren't listening. Take advantage of the experience and knowledge that guys like Cat and Rocky and Dick and Kutnay to name a few bring to this board. These guys are the best this province has to offer and all you have to do is stop and take a breath and listen. You'll be surprised what you might learn. With your enthusuasm and their knowledge, you could quite likely connect on a ram in the next few years.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 07-04-2007, 11:55 AM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

Some one buy TJ a whistle and a stripped jersey please.
You beat me to it again Sheephunter.
Well put.
I guess if the young lad is that good he has'nt a problem showing up in Spruce Grove on the 14th.
I full expect to be humbled, as does I'm sure Cat, and the rest of the merry men from the shillouette troop.
See ya there?????!
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 07-04-2007, 12:10 PM
Short Round Short Round is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 165
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post

Short Round, i understand your comments completely, this wouldn't be a dollar related purchase...purely a 'want' type purchase...i'd have to wait awhile too so i'm happy i have a tikka in .270 that shoots well and is 8 lbs without ammo. P.s. i bought some pretty top end gear for this mountain hunting stuff anyhow, want to be ultra capable and light on my back for the long daytrip type stuff...so fun to think about having a rifle totally dedicated to this is all...people have needed alot less reason than taking up a new critter to hunt to get a new rifle ya know.
In that case, Wholesale still lists some old-style 700 Titanium's on sale ($100 off) in 7mm RSAUM. I know the cartridge is dead, but handloading for it will still work -- and those ballistics in a 5.5 pound gun would be damn near perfect.

Or the Kimber 84M montana in .260 or 7-08. Even lighter and only a little less flat shooting.

Both will set you back around $1350.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 07-04-2007, 03:12 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Lol, yeah egging things on a little bit, never have been much of a competative shooter so i'll just have to let yall believe i can't shoot and i'm running my mouth...or be jealous...your call...either is okay by me.

But that is also how i feel about shooting longer and those are really my experiences? So i don't know what to say...why wouldn't i say it seems pretty easy? Just telling you what i found out by myself, shooting those distances exactly like i said. I don't see anything intimidating or difficult about it. Started out with some pretty accurate gear in the first place(sub moa) and enough range time to understand how to shoot a few to the same place repeatedly so luckily for me the critters aren't as small as 10 rings i guess?

This reminds of the archery discussions i've seen lots of. Where every archer seems to have a distance limit they would impose on everyone else or they are unethical. Well its long since been educated that what is one guys comfortable limits is not the next guys...many factors for an individual to come up with for his own personal limits. I personally don't set any defined limits. I practice to as far as i can and that gives me idea of how far i can shoot well under ideal conditions...then work within that comfort range for hunting conditions which are generally not near 'ideal' therefore why most my deer are shot inside 30 yrds for archery although i practice and pin to 70. I have one long shot on the archery thing that i'm glad to have done all the practice etc. for. My biggest deer to date is a 166 gross muley that i took with a 57 yrd heart shot under ideal conditions(obviously) and you just know when you let it go that your good...he hopped 20 yrds stood looking back at me wondering what happened and 30 seconds later fell over....i have about a dozen other deer with the bow and i'm sure all the rest have been under 35 yrds except him but it can pay to extend your skills as far as you can. You can argue that with me until your blue in the face...but why bother...i'm right.

When i had only shot to 100 yrds on the range with the powder burners i was nervous about a 250 yrd shot on a coyote(seemed like a mile away at the time...had no idea where to hold)....now its a lay up to me. I'm guessing there are alot more guys on here than just me who would also call that shot a lay up too...just none willing to jump in here i guess? I put my time in, just not at a populated shooting ranges and shooting competitions for everyone else to see i guess?

I thought everyone who cared about accuracy was learning new limits and getting on board with the dialing in methods/multiple hash reticles and growing their skills/extending their abilities? Isn't that the latest trend these days? There are outfits making guns pre-dialed in to really long ranges now and giving the load recipes etc. isn't cz selling a rifle all set up for 1000 yrd now? Everywhere i turn i hear about this stuff...so i start shooting far with a bp reticle and it seems a snap...and why wouldn't it be? Talk about it though and its a shyt storm....what gives? I concentrate on being good with my gear so i'm good in the field...have no idea how that translates to competing with all the rest of the shooters out there on paper....i'm pretty hard on myself and equipment to be good though as i am very competative with the animals i pursue...i don't like to lose that game!

Never mind, i promise to not shoot my sheep unless he's under 200 yrds if gun and 40 with bow.

Now we can get back to sheep rifles and calibers.

Last edited by Stinky Coyote; 07-04-2007 at 03:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 07-04-2007, 05:06 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,189
Default

Quote:
The crosshairs cover an entire 4.33" standard clay pigeon. With my 24X scope you I hardly notice the pigeon sticking out on either side of the fine cross hairs.
Yeah, pretty hard to hit something that small at distance if thats what your using as a reference to hold on as you can't see what your doing.

If i remember right a gun is just as accurate with iron sights as it is with a 24x scope on it...its the nut behind the wheel that makes it work right.

I used those large orange 200 yrd targets and i think the crosshair on 9x pretty much covered the cross completely at 500 and fringed at 400 but either way...i quickly found reference that i could repeat and got a 4" group at 400 and a 6" group at 500 without trying to armchair quarterback it or anything...just doing it to find drop not group size and i found a consistant hold point to accurately determine drop....thats how it worked...for real.

I put a 5 moa red dot on a .17 hmr at one point. The dot covered 5 inches of target area at 100 yrds. The gun was sub moa. So what do you do to zero that? What i did was buy targets with black center circle about 10-12" in diameter so i could hold the red dot in the middle of that for each group of shots and then i just moved the group around inside the dot (so to speak) until it was a little high of dead center on the black target. The next day i shot gophers with a buddy and his scoped .22 mag and i equalled or outshot him to 130 yrds all day....the longer ones the dot completely covered the gopher but it worked just fine as i knew the bullets were landing in the middle of that dot...if i had the middle over the gopher it went pop. It wasn't hard to learn how to zero it properly and it wasn't hard to shoot it properly. You have to reference things. If you want to be able to hold the same position on a target then you gotta have some reference points that you can see. If you can't see your clay pigeon and have nothing else to square up on then yeah...you gonna have a problem with accuracy and consistancy.

Put a coyote there instead or a much larger aiming point that you can repeatably center or hold on and see what happens.

Am i talking out my bum? Not sure i'm understanding your comment on that fully...if your saying it can't be done because you can't see it? If your target was a square board then you could put the crosshair level with the top edge and center and you could punch a decent group no problemo...you'd have a consistant reference. A game animal would be much easier to get the references necessary to shoot well at those ranges with half the magnification your talking about....even those large 200 yrd targets worked fine to 500 with 9x....but a clay pigeon would be intimidating and near impossible to reference at those ranges without a ton of magnification...i wouldn't be able to find it on 9x at 500. But put it in the middle of a board with a few black squares about 12" out from center on all four corners and it would be much easier as you could center the crosshairs using those reference points. Please tell me this is some general common sense i'm using here and that this isn't a revolutionary way of finding a way to aim at things?!

I must be lucky as my first try at long range was basically moa all the way...just like at 100. Why wouldn't it be?
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 07-04-2007, 05:39 PM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Lol, yeah egging things on a little bit, never have been much of a competative shooter so i'll just have to let yall believe i can't shoot and i'm running my mouth...or be jealous...your call...either is okay by me.

But that is also how i feel about shooting longer and those are really my experiences? So i don't know what to say...why wouldn't i say it seems pretty easy? Just telling you what i found out by myself, shooting those distances exactly like i said. I don't see anything intimidating or difficult about it. Started out with some pretty accurate gear in the first place(sub moa) and enough range time to understand how to shoot a few to the same place repeatedly so luckily for me the critters aren't as small as 10 rings i guess?

I'm a tad curious as to why you wont give a Rilfe Rodeo a try, if the pressure of competition gets to you how the heck do you cope with the sheep fever?

To each his own, but claiming this that or the other thing as being not too hard or even seemingly easy(parphrasing)
Then doing a high tail away from an opportuntiy to show your stuff and be counted??

I'll let Catnthehat explain the intricacies of 500meter shots on clay birds. When you think there aint a breath of wind and The Ol' shooter Jack tells you to hold 3 minuites off your target, and begrudingly you do and voila a broken bird.
Quick lad, how far is 3 minuites at 500 meters?
And that got read by an old 1000yard shooter who reads mirage like a wrist watch.
Makes your claims a bit suspect in my mind, but then again what the heck do I know about shooting anyways.
BTW: We aint got no 10 rings in a Rifle Rodeo. They all look like critters actually.
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 07-04-2007, 05:40 PM
Bull Shooter Bull Shooter is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 416
Default

Stinky, I am not against long-range hunting at all providing the shooter is knowledgeable about all the variables, has practiced under different situations, has confidence in his abilities, has confidence in his equipment but most importantly, has confidence in making (as opposed to taking) the shot. As I said months ago, you can be lucky to get hunting access and you can be lucky to find game but luck should have no place when you decide to pull the trigger.

If you know you can do it, good for you. And I will admit that I envy your ability. I shoot out to 400 yards (range only) on a regular basis. I have arguably the best hunting rifles, scopes, spotting scopes, chrony’s, reloading gear and computer software that money can buy. But I lack consistency in my shots… shooter error, misjudging variables, etc. I would consider myself a pretty serious student of the shooting sports… and I know I will always remain a student.

While I am certain that you recognize many of the variables in long range shooting, distance, elevation, wind, humidity, temperature, your own limitations and the limitations of your equipment I hope you also recognize the game variable. Over a distance of 600 yards from the time you commit to the trigger and launch your projectile at 2,900 fps a lot can happen at the target site. This is a highly unpredictable variable and we owe our quarry and sport a great deal of respect. Regards, Mike
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.