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Old 01-23-2018, 07:33 AM
dothepuff dothepuff is offline
 
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Default Fish Bends

Seen this come up a few time in other posts but nothing backing up claims about the Bends in freshwater fish. Came across this story and wanted to share and see what peoples thoughts are plus they have a really neat tool to help release the fish with it.

http://www.sharetheoutdoors.com/2016...uma-in-f-is-h/
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  #2  
Old 01-23-2018, 11:24 AM
huntsfurfish huntsfurfish is offline
 
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Damage is done.

Best not to fish deep water for walleye, perch etc.

One of the leading causes of fish mortality.
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Old 01-23-2018, 12:26 PM
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RavYak RavYak is offline
 
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What do you mean nothing backing up claims regarding bends? Barotrauma as it is better known as is well documented and fairly straight forward.

The use of descending devices in the situation of mistakenly catching a fish in deep water is a good procedure. However the use of a descending device as an excuse to fish deeper water is imo irresponsible as although it does increase the fishes chance of survival there can be permanent damage done.

For perch and walleye you should fish shallower than 30 fow unless you plan on keeping everything(which isn't possible here for walleye, but is for perch).
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:11 PM
dothepuff dothepuff is offline
 
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Default blue barcelona

Not trying to cause anything just looking for info and thoughts on the matter.

Quote:
Damage is done.

Best not to fish deep water for walleye, perch etc.

One of the leading causes of fish mortality.
If it's not best to fish in deep water how do people go about catching fish that live in deeper water...lake trout come to mind as one or accidental catch's of other species. Trying to find more info on it being a leading cause of fish mortality. I would think that if there is so many fish being brought up from deep waters that there would be quite a few dead fish always floating around in the summer and in the spring after the ice lifts...

Quote:
What do you mean nothing backing up claims regarding bends? Barotrauma as it is better known as is well documented and fairly straight forward
.

I agree that it is well documented...but with people making claims about all this bad stuff that happens to the fish coming up from deep water there isn't much documented on it and no one is sharing any literature or links....just to go out and say it's bad and wrong.....well...I would think if it is such a tragic matter there would be literature published in the regulations to educate the anglers??


Quote:
The use of descending devices in the situation of mistakenly catching a fish in deep water is a good procedure. However the use of a descending device as an excuse to fish deeper water is imo irresponsible as although it does increase the fishes chance of survival there can be permanent damage done.
Agree 100%, I also think that if this descending device can save a few fish it is worth having one in the tackle box. Wondering what the long term damage is as the longevity, would imaging it would be more sever for certain species of fish and maybe size?

Quote:
For perch and walleye you should fish shallower than 30 fow unless you plan on keeping everything(which isn't possible here for walleye, but is for perch).
Not sure what to say on this...I've fished some of the bigger lakes in AB, Sask and Man and we were well over 30' catching everything...never seen any fish come up showing any sign of the bends and even watched big lake trout chase the hooks up to the surface from over 80' fow...some never took the hook and swam back down to the depths they were at.
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:30 PM
jeffrey929 jeffrey929 is offline
 
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Lake Trout are not affected by pressure changes... They can inflate or deflate their swim bladders accordingly
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:46 PM
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SamSteele SamSteele is offline
 
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The bends is caused by breathing compressed air at depth, forcing nitrogen into the bloodstream. When you ascend too quickly the nitrogen expands and causes immense pain and can cause death.

My thinking is that fish do not get the bends as they are not breathing air. What they do have issues with when brought up from depth too quickly is their air bladder expanding too quickly, coming out their mouths and preventing them from descending back to their original depth.
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:00 PM
dothepuff dothepuff is offline
 
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Gonna be sharing some reading info as I find it...

http://www.rebeccaeberts.ca/resource...uma-awareness/

the other links on the bottom of the page are dead.

Came across the info about the lake trout and found it interesting that swim bladders are different in species of fish.
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Old 01-23-2018, 10:42 PM
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RavYak RavYak is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dothepuff View Post
Not sure what to say on this...I've fished some of the bigger lakes in AB, Sask and Man and we were well over 30' catching everything...never seen any fish come up showing any sign of the bends and even watched big lake trout chase the hooks up to the surface from over 80' fow...some never took the hook and swam back down to the depths they were at.
You haven't payed attention then... Perch and walleye caught in over 30 fow often show severe signs of barotrauma(bulging eyes or stomachs protruding from mouth) and yes these are the severe signs, most people don't even notice the minor signs.

Lakers can control their air bladders and are fairly capable of dealing with large changes in depth and have no part in this discussion. With that said even they can suffer from barotrauma especially if brought up fast.

Here is a source regarding perch/walleye.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...nalCode=ujfm20

Quote:
Barotrauma is increasingly being recognized as a serious conservation and management issue in catch-and-release fisheries. Barotrauma results from decompression that can cause physiological alterations and physical injuries. During the summers of 2007 and 2008, we angled for fish in the St. Lawrence River to determine the incidence of barotrauma injuries and the related mortality rates. An angler survey was also conducted in 2008. A total of 212 fish were caught at depths ranging from 1 to 21 m. Sixty-three fish (30%) showed signs of barotrauma, 99% of these being smallmouth bass Micropterus dolomieu, walleyes Sander vitreus, and yellow perch Perca flavescens. These three species represented 77% of all the fish caught and, excluding round goby Neogobius melanostomus, represented 94% of the fish caught at depths greater than 6 m. Signs of barotrauma were bloating (89%), loss of equilibrium (66%), stomach eversion (62%), bulging eyes (18%), hemorrhaging in the eyes and fins (12%), and anal eversion (5%). Most fish had multiple signs, approximately 50% showing loss of equilibrium, bloating, and stomach eversion. The incidence of barotrauma increased with depth, first appearing at 6.1 m. There was a threshold at approximately 10 m, from which the incidence rapidly increased to 100% at 21 m. Mortality occurred in 67% of the fish with barotrauma, even in those with less severe signs (e.g., mild bloating and slight loss of equilibrium only when stationary) and showed a similar rate of increase starting at 9 m. There were interspecific differences in the susceptibility to barotrauma that may be related to habitat preferences and physiological and physical differences that should be considered when targeting different species and depths.
First thing to note barotrauma was seen as shallow as 6.1m(20 feet). That is why some walleye tournaments now limit maximum depth to 18 fow(Anglers Cup at Slave Lake for example).

Second there is a threshold around 10m(33 feet) at which barotrauma is much more common. I and anyone else that has fished at those depths and payed attention should agree with those results. Hence why I say you shouldn't fish deeper then 30 feet unless you plan on keeping what you catch.

Finally 67% of those fish that showed even minor signs of barotrauma died...

Simply put fishing for these fish in deep water is irresponsible unless you plan on and are capable of keeping what you catch. A descending device has been proven to help substantially(although most testing has been done on rockfish) but you shouldn't be relying on them to protect fish.

Instead learn how to fish and go target them in shallower water. You can easily find perch and walleye in under 30 fow especially here in AB.
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:59 AM
cube cube is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey929 View Post
Lake Trout are not affected by pressure changes... They can inflate or deflate their swim bladders accordingly
This is not completely true.

If you go to the link that dothepuff included you will clearly see in the photo that the fish suffering barotrauma is indeed a Lake Trout.


https://i2.wp.com/www.rebeccaeberts....size=720%2C533
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Old 01-24-2018, 10:49 AM
cube cube is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dothepuff View Post
Not trying to cause anything just looking for info and thoughts on the matter.



If it's not best to fish in deep water how do people go about catching fish that live in deeper water...lake trout come to mind as one or accidental catch's of other species. Trying to find more info on it being a leading cause of fish mortality. I would think that if there is so many fish being brought up from deep waters that there would be quite a few dead fish always floating around in the summer and in the spring after the ice lifts...

Generally dead Fish, just like drown human bodies, sink until decay bring them to the surface. Here most fish are consumed, unless they are vey large, before they resurface. Catch and release fatalities are also much lower while ice fishing or fishing cold waters, this is well known. The reasons are probably multi factorial but I would think it not unrealistic that barotrauma would be one of the factors. As you know the volume of a gas in a bag is not only proportional with external pressure but also Temperature. While ice fishing the fish would be going from a max of 4 degrees a the bottom and getting COLDER to zero as you brought him up. A very small degree change and it vis a vis the temperature should cause a small decrease. The summer would be completely opposite. Ie the fish would be coming from quite a cold place at depth to a much warmer temperature at the surface (about a 16 degree change) and hence have an expansion effect on the swim bladder.

.

I agree that it is well documented...but with people making claims about all this bad stuff that happens to the fish coming up from deep water there isn't much documented on it and no one is sharing any literature or links....just to go out and say it's bad and wrong.....well...I would think if it is such a tragic matter there would be literature published in the regulations to educate the anglers??

Page 23 of the guide "Fish for walleye and perch in relatively shallow water.
For more information, obtain a copy of the pamphlet “Handle and
Release Fish with Care” from your nearest Fish and Wildlife Office." They have put info like this into the guide for a number of years now.

For the best info go down to your local University Library and use their data bases there and you will find that there is actually quite a bit of info on this.





Agree 100%, I also think that if this descending device can save a few fish it is worth having one in the tackle box. Wondering what the long term damage is as the longevity, would imaging it would be more sever for certain species of fish and maybe size?



Not sure what to say on this...I've fished some of the bigger lakes in AB, Sask and Man and we were well over 30' catching everything...never seen any fish come up showing any sign of the bends and even watched big lake trout chase the hooks up to the surface from over 80' fow...some never took the hook and swam back down to the depths they were at.Yes Lake trout have evolved to hunt like this not sure that it is valid for walleye and perch though.
.

Last edited by cube; 01-24-2018 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 01-24-2018, 09:10 PM
jeffrey929 jeffrey929 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cube View Post
This is not completely true.

If you go to the link that dothepuff included you will clearly see in the photo that the fish suffering barotrauma is indeed a Lake Trout.


https://i2.wp.com/www.rebeccaeberts....size=720%2C533
Not so sure if the photo is an actual photo.. and if you look at the caption above, species that can gulp or burp air.. trout, salmon, carp
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  #12  
Old 01-24-2018, 10:52 PM
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RavYak RavYak is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey929 View Post
Not so sure if the photo is an actual photo.. and if you look at the caption above, species that can gulp or burp air.. trout, salmon, carp
It is...

They can adjust their air bladders but that doesn't mean they don't still suffer from barotrauma.

Here is a report from Wisconsin government that comments on the subject.

https://dnr.wi.gov/topic/fishing/doc...gMortality.pdf

Quote:
Furthermore, barotrauma has been a concern, as most Lake Trout are brought up from deep water and many are observed with overinflated gas bladders
Quote:
—Bloating of angler-caught Lake Trout was observed in 32.3% of Lake Superior fish and only 5.6% of fish in Lake Huron. Incidence of barotrauma was related to the depth of capture: bloating was significantly more frequent for Lake Trout caught at 50-m or greater depths in Lake Superior (Z-test: Z = −3.15, P = 0.002) and for fish caught at 40-m or greater depths in Lake Huron (Z = −4.83, P < 0.001).
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Old 01-24-2018, 11:04 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Everyone fishing the causeway at la Biche for perch will shrug this thread off.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:55 AM
cube cube is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey929 View Post
Not so sure if the photo is an actual photo.. and if you look at the caption above, species that can gulp or burp air.. trout, salmon, carp
The photo is an actual photo.

http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/newslett...eep_water.html

I tracked down the researcher in question and actually called him a couple of years ago so, I can confirm that it is indeed a lake trout. I can further confirm that some lake trout do indeed suffer from barotrauma. Hence why I carry a home made fish descender now

I did indeed read the caption above but already new about physostomous (burbing) vs physoclistous (non burbing fish) for a number of years.

Thanks Ravyak for the further info
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