+75 yard shots... Unethical any way you look at it - Page 5

curtisb · #**121** 09-20-2011, 01:51 PM

Read the whole thread just now, like a lot of others, couldn't bite my tongue.

My concensis: I need to practice!!!

But in reality, I'm not a very good shot, I shoot to 60, about a 4 inch group with my gear on, on a good day. Longest shot I think between 50 and 60 on an animal. Wouldn't even think about making a long bomb. Other than the 2 kills outside 30, the rest have been inside 20. I've been shooting the bow for going on 6 seasons, and I have wounded a doe - from 18 yards. Inhumane? Absolutely! I dealt with it, I made a mistake, and HOPEFULLY I won't make the same mistake again. Looking back on it; I think I would have recovered her had I gave her more time - young, dumb, inexperienced and impatient on my part. Shot her center mass, not quite high enough to get in above the brisket, arrow deflected, and somewhat penetrated below her shoulder.

I have however shot (2) moose, with METAL INSIDE THEM. 1 bull whereas I found a broadhead and about 4 inches of shaft just above his spine (hit no bone mass or deflected), and one cow wheras I found a broadhead in her shoulder with 2 inches of shaft (hit a bit of bone). Darn it - who ever those shooters were - I hate to break it to you; but your arrow simply didn't have enough energy left. (despite what all the perfect scenario practise, kinetic energy, and top of the line fast shooting equipment.)

Almost a guarantee those guys are in on this "long range archery" thread though... and would never admit how many animals they have wounded.

remmy300 · #**122** 09-20-2011, 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=bluetick;1086675]The distance is not the issue as much as being able to varify a clean hit or a miss ,or how about a kill shot and not a wound .
If you have the eyes to see this far i commend you ,50 meter is my max and even then im iffy on seeing my shot hit where i wanted it to.

Tick...i cant see my arrows hardly fly at all. I have bright fletch and wraps..I know they are expensive but lighted nocks are worth there weight in gold.

Dr. Fish · #**123** 09-20-2011, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRackLover

Glad it worked out for you. I'm sure you're a great target archer at long ranges, but things will happen in the field with live moving targets - give it time. I hope you never wound one.

Haven't seen anyone in this tread argue that bows/arrows can't shoot effectively to 100+ meters with the proper gear, tuning and practice. But all that doesn't matter if the game moves after the arrow is in flight.

Just curious if you practice with full camo (gear) and broadheads at those 100 ranges? What kind of groups do you get? Your groups certainly won't be affected by buck fever at 80 yards ... you aren't even close enough to feel the rush.

You are missing the entire point of bowhunting - getting up close and personally. Hopefully you never become an ambassador of the sport - the last thing the bowhunting community needs is more long range shooters.

I never practice in my hunting gear, it stays locked up to keep it as scent free as possible. However I do practice in clothing equivalent to what I will be hunting in. Practice while standing, kneeling, starting from a prone position to a kneeling or standing then shooting, from a chair in case I decide to use a ground blind, from the roof of the shop in case I find myself in a treestand, and after a sprint to my bow to get the heart rate up there. And another one that I find helps out alot is stand facing the opposite direction of your target then turn around draw and fire as quick as you can while being accurate, really helps with getting the aiming process speed improved.
I do not shoot anything besides broadheads, theres no point. I dont shoot in 3d tournaments so why bother shooting anything other than what I will be hunting with. I end up spending a rude amount of money on broadheads.
I think I would be a great ambassador for bowhunting, I'm about as hardcore with it as anyone.
I am not missing the point of bowhunting at all, and I dont shoot every animal at long range. I took my Mulie buck on Sept 2cd from 24 yards after a 3 hour stalk, now that was exciting. However if I am 80 yards away and am not confident that I can get closer I will not hesitate to take the shot. Why? Because I practice it all the time and know I can make the shot. Its just like rifle hunting, some guys wont shoot over 200 and some guys wont even blink at 600.

Dr. Fish · #**124** 09-20-2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Sorry, gonna rant here. I heard of a new guide down here bragging up his client took a mulie, which they shot at 117 yards..... Yes witha bow.
Then I read about a guy who took a pronghorn.... With a 78 yard shot !

Sorry , but I've been shooting for over 20 years, and I absolutely cannot see anyone claiming they can make a reliable shot at those distances. I don't care what kind of archery gear your packing, it's a hail Mary shot and your a poor hunter.... Period!!

Oooooh I'm steAmed!!

Rant done,.... Thanx.

For a guy that has been shooting for over 20 years, you sure dont have a clue as to what a bow can do hey? Maby these shots wernt as doable 20 years ago with 200fps finger shot bows, but get with the times. Spend some of those hard earned dollars and invest in a new rig you wont be dissapointed.

Nait Hadya · #**125** 09-20-2011, 06:38 PM

^^^^ yep I was amazed with the new tech bows when i picked up mine last year. i was quickly backed out to 90 meters soon after i started shooting it. with the advances in speed,arrows and broadheads can't really see why someone else should be trying to set limits... watched helgie's buddy shoot a walking whitetail today on the telly,amazing shot, perfect.

C Taylor · #**126** 09-20-2011, 06:52 PM

Bluetick your absolutely right, I was a little over tired and a little bent as to be acuused of baiting. I'm not calling myself a saint, just don't like being called the devil either!
Harvest is done and now I'm out of here good luck guys

petew · #**127** 09-20-2011, 08:50 PM

Bow hunting is about getting close not shooting far.
The arrow will kill as far as it flies, but a Hail Mary is just that.
Pete

Kurt505 · #**128** 09-20-2011, 10:14 PM

It's just this simple, you can cry all you want about how your feelings get hurt by people taking long shots, you can say that bowhunting is about getting close, you can brag about making a 120yd shot. It don't matter because nobody is changing anyone elses mind whining or bragging on this thread. Bowhunting is about hunting with a bow! It don't matter how anyone else does it, because they aren't buying your license, your tags, your equipment or paying for your fuel to go out hunting. If anyone would like to cough up about $6000 or $7000 a year for my hunting addiction I will gladly follow all rules and regulations you wish to impose upon me, until that happens I'm going to pay for my own hunt and follow all the laws outlined in the Alberta hunting regulations and enjoy every minute I can afford to spend in the outdoors doing what I love. Whether you plan on taking that long shot or not, it's wise to practice as far as your pins can stretch, it'll make a 40yd shot seem like a chip shot.

HighWildnFree · #**129** 09-21-2011, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt505

It's just this simple, you can cry all you want about how your feelings get hurt by people taking long shots, you can say that bowhunting is about getting close, you can brag about making a 120yd shot. It don't matter because nobody is changing anyone elses mind whining or bragging on this thread. Bowhunting is about hunting with a bow! It don't matter how anyone else does it, because they aren't buying your license, your tags, your equipment or paying for your fuel to go out hunting. If anyone would like to cough up about $6000 or $7000 a year for my hunting addiction I will gladly follow all rules and regulations you wish to impose upon me, until that happens I'm going to pay for my own hunt and follow all the laws outlined in the Alberta hunting regulations and enjoy every minute I can afford to spend in the outdoors doing what I love. Whether you plan on taking that long shot or not, it's wise to practice as far as your pins can stretch, it'll make a 40yd shot seem like a chip shot.

Very well said.

ishootbambi · #**130** 09-21-2011, 10:51 AM

ya know, the whole problem with this thread is the title. bessie, you have made an attempt to ram your ethics down the throats of everyone, and thats really where the arguing in this thread is coming from. heck if you go back and look at my first post, i stated that i wont shoot past 50 for my own reasons....even though im capable much farther. thats my ethics. the difference is that i have never told anyone else that they are wrong for feeling otherwise. ethics is a personal thing, and nobody has the right to tell someone else what thiers should be.

pottymouth · #**131** 09-21-2011, 11:32 AM

^^^ I don't feel he's ramming anything down anyone's throat. He just stated his feelings and opinions on an opinion web site! .........I've heard worse !

bonecollector10 · #**132** 09-21-2011, 02:11 PM

I practiced weekly since the second I got my bow to make sure I could make an ethical shot on an animal at a distance I was comfortable with. The penetration doesnt change at 80 yards at least not enough to make a difference, I wouldnt no at 120. I shot my bull moose at 75 yards last year with a mechanical broadhead 70 lbs draw and my bow was 8 years old. The arrow went through and through. If your groupings are good and your shot is confident then realistically you could shoot as far as the arrow flies, the only unethical thing here is will the animal still be standing exactly where he was 120 yards ago.

ishootbambi · #**133** 09-21-2011, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

^^^ I don't feel he's ramming anything down anyone's throat. He just stated his feelings and opinions on an opinion web site! .........I've heard worse !

yeah, youve kinda shown it a few times that reading comprehension isnt great. read the title of this thread s l o w l y. bessie could have said something like.......i dont really think its ethical to shoot past 75 yards with a bow. what do you guys think?...... see that would be stating an opinion without forcing it on others. or maybe.......i feel that shooting past 75 yards witha bow is unethical, someone give me a reason why you think it is.

see the difference? and like i said, my first post in this one stated that i AGREE with him. what i dont agree with is forcing my opinion on anyone else. ethics is personal to each individual, and nobody has the right to tell anyone else what thier ethics should be.

bessiedog · #**134** 09-21-2011, 03:47 PM

1. did you miss the word r a n t ?
look it up. try to be nice.... then guess why i decided to post..

2. as long as it is... read my second post, i'm guessing you haven't.

ishootbambi · #**135** 09-21-2011, 04:02 PM

ive read the whole thread bess. your point is clear. heres a highlight of post 1

Quote:

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Sorry , but I've been shooting for over 20 years, and I absolutely cannot see anyone claiming they can make a reliable shot at those distances. I don't care what kind of archery gear your packing, it's a hail Mary shot and your a poor hunter.... Period!!

.

and heres one from your second post

Quote:

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Cmon no ones gonna seriously dispute this! Really??

and your third

Quote:

Originally Posted by bessiedog

factors such as arrow speed, visibility, and the massive suseptibility to wind just kills any argument that one could make an ethical shot and not call it a hail mAry shot.
...

to be clear....i feel the same about shooting past 50....its your delivery that sucks. your ethics are your own, and name calling or arguing about someone elses is is pretty weak in my opinion.

dale

Justin.C · #**136** 09-21-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ya know, the whole problem with this thread is the title. bessie, you have made an attempt to ram your ethics down the throats of everyone, and thats really where the arguing in this thread is coming from. heck if you go back and look at my first post, i stated that i wont shoot past 50 for my own reasons....even though im capable much farther. thats my ethics. the difference is that i have never told anyone else that they are wrong for feeling otherwise. ethics is a personal thing, and nobody has the right to tell someone else what thiers should be.

Wow. The exact same thing I said and I got atactted twice by people that have no clue.....

Justin.C · #**137** 09-21-2011, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ive read the whole thread bess. your point is clear. heres a highlight of post 1

and heres one from your second post

and your third

to be clear....i feel the same about shooting past 50....its your delivery that sucks. your ethics are your own, and name calling or arguing about someone elses is is pretty weak in my opinion.

dale

Yep summed it Up bud. This guy is pushing what he feels is rite on every AO member.....

Sorry bud. NEVER HAPPEN....... Wisebuck Trust me I am far from niave...

cutthroat666 · #**138** 09-21-2011, 04:38 PM

Fishinmatt had the scenario right but it might help to think of things this way.

Imagine having a rifle in your hands and knowing that it will not fire until about a second or so after you squeeze the trigger. Not one of us would enjoy hunting with that rifle nor would we be as confident when sizing up a good meat doe or trophy buck.

That rifle delay is the same sort of thing that happens when an arrow leaves a bow. Now - add to that the fact that the deer actually can see the arrow leave the bow and travel towards it and the fact that any wind or wind change in that second makes a longer distance arrow shot less likely to hit the intended point of impact.

In my opinion the ability to practice to the point of arrowing a target perfectly every time at 100 yards still does not make for a reliable kill shot of an animal that can move at any time. I will not use the term unethical because I believe we all have different sets of guidelines for our "ethics" but I do believe a 100+ yard shot with a bow gives the hunter a great chance of wounding an animal and never seeing it again - and I don't agree with it.

I won't hunt with someone that will take a rifle shot at an animal outside of what we feel they are capable of with predictable success and I would not hunt with someone that would do so with a bow.

We all miss our intended target occassionally - why add to the number of needlessly wounded animals.

cutthroat

Justin.C · #**139** 09-21-2011, 05:16 PM

Cutthroat...
In your posr I read........

I won't hunt with someone that will take a rifle shot at an animal outside of what we feel they are capable of with predictable success and I would not hunt with someone that would do so with a bow............
This is the real problem. What make you able to tell who has the right abilities to judge what a person can do??? I bet if Shawn cardlock was to hunt with you you would not tell him how far to shoot. You probably dont even know who he is....

Other than that you are correct in your post..

Speckle55 · #**140** 09-21-2011, 05:29 PM

1520 King George does 12 shots at 240 yards in a row into the Cloth of Gold =Long Bow
1970 = compound 20 to 40 yard max at 180 fps
1990= compound 40 to 60 yard max at 240fps wheel change and arrows
2011= compound 70 to 100 yard max at 340 + fps new broadhead and equip

Ethics are changing and for some they will never change..

i have seen GREAT changes in the bows and archery in the last 40 years and i say KUDOS to the young Robin Hoods and William Tells(female too)
not every one is one of those shooter,s but i have seen some that all i can say is WOW i envy you

Good Luck too all Bow Hunters

Be the Change you wish to see in the World- Ghandi

David

bessiedog · #**141** 09-21-2011, 05:42 PM

My delivery must suck. And I sincerely apologize for that. Cause I still think ya missed the point.... at least the main ones.

When new anything is introduced.... 'new norms' need to be created (i think i wrote something bout that).

I have just as big a right as anyone else to write down...'what I think you're doing is wrong' and why. Then defend it. I tried to do that. Some have agreed with me and some have not.

'Mind your own business' dosen't cut it. 'Ethics are personal' dosen't cut it as well.. sorry...

I poached this from mrGoogle

"Ethics poses questions about how we ought to act in relationships and how we should live with one another. Ethics asks us to consider whether our actions are right or wrong. It also asks us how those character traits that help humans flourish (such as integrity, honesty, faithfulness, and compassion) play out in everyday living.

Ethical norms and principles have developed over time and across cultures as rational people of goodwill consider human relationships and how human beings act when they are at their best. "

In Canada... we play this game to determine ethical standpoints for our community : "what is demonstrably reasonable in a just and democratic society" (Charter sec.1)... or that which has a law about it.

Your actions (in this case your shot) can affect me and everyone else. How? You blow the shot, You pin cushion a deer, the landowner gets mad, he kicks everyone off the parcel cause he's sick of seeing stuck critters roaming around (yup.. I've had it happen to me, someone else did it, i lose out anyway... and it might happen to you)...

So the ethical test goes like this:

1. Is it demonstrably reasonable for everyone to shoot as far as they want? So far yup....I guess is it ok, there's no law against it... until one can demonstrate that this is bad. I think it stands a pretty good chance of having it turn out that way soon if we have magazines saying that hunters usually do this. And so many guys piping up about 'yup, no prob, I'm THAT good, its not that hard'. As I said before... these people are more then likely the minority.

2. If one can demonstrate that it isn't reasonable, then one of two things can happen A) we decide to control our own behavior, or B) the good ole government steps in and regulates the behaviour.. boy... I love it when that happens.. not!

(as an aside..... years ago I 'ranted' here about how I felt about quads and how their being used... well I got told to 'mind your own business'. I predicted that the gov't would eventually step in... and what does that look like... we as an outdoor community lost a chance to prevent regulation by establishing 'unwritten rules' ourselves). I hate gov't social engineering, I'd rather we as a community figure it out ourselves.

A large part of establishing those norms is to discuss them. Perhaps consider the ideas, and then agree to adjust our behavior. We are so caught up in our need to lone wolf it that we're just begging the gov't to step in when newbies to the sport get the wrong impression.

At least please stress how friggin long its taken you to get that accurate!

yup... I ranted... I'm human.... so sue me.... it happens. I hope to be a politically correct as you some day.....geeze!

and here we have people basically saying 'shut up, to each his own, its fine, leave it be'............. no its not.

very done with this thread.

ps... ethics do change over time...

smoking
spanking
sex
shooting

Kurt505 · #**142** 09-21-2011, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cutthroat666

Fishinmatt had the scenario right but it might help to think of things this way.

Imagine having a rifle in your hands and knowing that it will not fire until about a second or so after you squeeze the trigger. Not one of us would enjoy hunting with that rifle nor would we be as confident when sizing up a good meat doe or trophy buck.

That rifle delay is the same sort of thing that happens when an arrow leaves a bow. Now - add to that the fact that the deer actually can see the arrow leave the bow and travel towards it and the fact that any wind or wind change in that second makes a longer distance arrow shot less likely to hit the intended point of impact.

In my opinion the ability to practice to the point of arrowing a target perfectly every time at 100 yards still does not make for a reliable kill shot of an animal that can move at any time. I will not use the term unethical because I believe we all have different sets of guidelines for our "ethics" but I do believe a 100+ yard shot with a bow gives the hunter a great chance of wounding an animal and never seeing it again - and I don't agree with it.

I won't hunt with someone that will take a rifle shot at an animal outside of what we feel they are capable of with predictable success and I would not hunt with someone that would do so with a bow.

We all miss our intended target occassionally - why add to the number of needlessly wounded animals.

cutthroat

The type of rifle you speak of is called a flint lock, and people use them all the time, but don't let the word get out because there will probably be a thread come up about the unethical use of firearms.

pottymouth · #**143** 09-21-2011, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

yeah, youve kinda shown it a few times that reading comprehension isnt great. read the title of this thread s l o w l y. bessie could have said something like.......i dont really think its ethical to shoot past 75 yards with a bow. what do you guys think?...... see that would be stating an opinion without forcing it on others. or maybe.......i feel that shooting past 75 yards witha bow is unethical, someone give me a reason why you think it is.

see the difference? and like i said, my first post in this one stated that i AGREE with him. what i dont agree with is forcing my opinion on anyone else. ethics is personal to each individual, and nobody has the right to tell anyone else what thier ethics should be.

Lol, my reading just fine, but thanks for your maturity and personal attack, always classy........ You just don't like when someone other than yourself is strongly opinionated.............kinda like calling the kettle black....thx for the entertainment as usual...

ishootbambi · #**144** 09-21-2011, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

but thanks for your maturity and personal attack,

you mean kinda like trying to bring up a story you heard. i gave you my number a couple times....you said you wanted to hear about it. ill tell you any time.

always classy

you mean classy....like as classy as entering an animal into a record book that could be disqualified?

........ You just don't like when someone other than yourself is strongly opinionated:

see this last part proves that you arent understanding the big words. if you actually read what i wrote, you would see that i share his opinion. what i dont share is the need to call fellow hunters ignorant, unethical, and poor hunters when they dont share that opinion.

for the op......i bet that you have done at least one of the following. baiting for bears, sitting in trees for deer, try a stalk on an animal you have seen from your vehicle, used a quad for hunting, shot at a running animal, shot beyond 250 yards with a rifle at an animal, took a crap in the woods, shot a predator or a pest or camped randomly in the forest. those are all things that at one time or another have been deemed unethical or no good on this forum.

how would you feel if others started calling you unethical, wrong, ignorant or a poor hunter for any of them?

pottymouth · #**145** 09-21-2011, 11:57 PM

I think your the one with the problem of not being able to keep up and understand. You keep mentioning someone entering something with out qualifying.........I'd really like you to spell out what your trying to imply with that statement.

And like I've told you before, I got no time for ya, so NO, I don't want to call ya, for the 4th time.

ishootbambi · #**146** 09-22-2011, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I think your the one with the problem of not being able to keep up and understand. You keep mentioning someone entering something with out qualifying.........I'd really like you to spell out what your trying to imply with that statement.

been done....i guess you didnt comprehend it.

And like I've told you before, I got no time for ya, so NO, I don't want to call ya, for the 4th time.

then id love to say ive heard the last of it from you....but i doubt it.

pottymouth · #**147** 09-22-2011, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

then id love to say ive heard the last of it from you....but i doubt it.

Nothing! I figured !.......

xtreme hunter10 · #**148** 09-22-2011, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Taylor

This goes to show how little some people do for wildlife but will flame others. Since when is creating habitat such as leaving areas that has steep hills or slough bottoms that had been farmed by previous landowners to go back to trees illegal? As for feeding deer in winter when they are starving everywhere and coyotes picking them off like gophers. Give your head a shake, it's not illegal one bit, it's called caring a bit more about things than just killing them. Too many of these flames come from people that after the deer is dead they don't give a dam until next year.
This year do more for the game than you take then talk ethics to me. Since the only thing I've seen on here was with antelope fences and work done with them, in my books that is high on the ethics scale to me. You guys that just buy a tag and shoot your deer are more like leaches to me.

I see what you are saying... i really do.. but if i was trying to feed the deer, i wouldnt be hunting over the same spot

and i have done more for the wild flora and fauna in this province than you will ever know. so dont preach to me.
Actually dont preach to anyone. I dont need to point out that deer is over populated in this province so dont go and tell me " I'm saving the deer" what a bunch of bologna. Your facts are wrong and you're acting like a savior. Just stop. Not cause I'm telling you, but just read what you're posting. It doesnt make any sense. ok, I'm done.

ishootbambi · #**149** 09-22-2011, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Taylor

Since the only thing I've seen on here was with antelope fences and work done with them, in my books that is high on the ethics scale to me..

you maybe missed them, but there have been threads on habitat improvement at a few local F&G projects, hen pheasant releases, goose nest projects and many more. there are lots of active volunteers for lots of projects here on AO. i would love to see more guys get involved on more things, but there are likely more here than you think.

cutthroat666 · #**150** 09-22-2011, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin.C

Cutthroat...
In your posr I read........

I won't hunt with someone that will take a rifle shot at an animal outside of what we feel they are capable of with predictable success and I would not hunt with someone that would do so with a bow............
This is the real problem. What make you able to tell who has the right abilities to judge what a person can do??? I bet if Shawn cardlock was to hunt with you you would not tell him how far to shoot. You probably dont even know who he is....

Other than that you are correct in your post..

Justin - I can only assume you mean Shawn Carlock (not Cardlock). Apparently I know who he is.

Please reread my post - I don't say "what I feel they are capable of" - I say what "we" feel they are capable of. I talk with my hunting partners about their feelings about the laws, regulations, and their capabilities as well as mine before we hunt together. If I see something I don't like while hunting together I will discuss it with that person and I expect they would do the same with me. If after that we are still on a different page - we won't hunt together anymore. Otherwise - I'm glad you agree with my post.

BTW - I would likely allow Carlock to be part of my hunting party - but I don't know him well enough to say.

cutthroat