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  #31  
Old 04-25-2015, 12:41 AM
32-40win 32-40win is offline
 
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Soooo, as I understand what the change you are representing is, a dial a prayer, w/o lens, and/or a v-bar with 10" stabilizers all the way round, would now go into, what we'd have called bowhunter release, instead of open or unlimited now? Either one was originally a kicker to the open or unlimited class, depending on the shoot you were at. Restriction on sight bars?
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  #32  
Old 04-25-2015, 02:47 AM
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;D No...its just simply a bowhunter shoot...as 3D was invented for...by bowhunters ..with bowhunter tackle like it used to be before target shooters put bowhunters in classes to the point where even the word bowhunter was eliminated. ...
And sight bar with what you would actually hunt with...

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  #33  
Old 04-25-2015, 05:51 AM
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The goal is to get more folks out and shooting their HUNTING bows. With modern hunting bows there has been a slight shift in the ACTUAL equipment people are using and the hunting equipment the industry is marketing to hunters.

For instance, a single pin sight...many guys are hunting with those but for the purpose of 3d that puts you in "open/unlimited class". Or having a rear v-bar with a fixed pin would put you in "Bowhunter release/fixed pin compound" and no longer "Hunter class".

The goal with the new class is to be more inclusive vs. exclusive. That being said we still had to define equipment that fell under "hunting". Thus a 30 inch front stabilizer is not really conducive to a hunting situation so we made our limits on that....and a couple other things.

The Hunter class has been "demoted" by Achery Canada and ATAA as a non-competitive non-championship class. Some of us felt that was a shame so we wanted to have the ABA stick up for hunters and come out with with its own class so people can still have a class to shoot, for fun or to compete in.

Even in Carbury Manitoba where Outdoor 3d Natiobals is being held...they recognized a void was created by this change. So they had a local sponsor step up to donate prizes for people who want to shoot "Hunter" class even though it is no longer recognized by Archery Canada as a class eligible for prizes. Kudos to the organizers for that decision!

LC
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  #34  
Old 04-25-2015, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
Will keep folks posted. Encourage your local clubs to add the class to their shoot and to contact the ABA 3d committee for information.

Glad to see the enthusiasm, hopefully we see a surge in new/old shooters!

LC
Hi Lefty
The Grande Prairie club, Game Country Archers, are looking to do an ABA sanctioned shoot and we have used this type of shoot for our August "Hunter" shoot. We usually have 3 loops of 25 targets which makes for a real varied and fun shoot. We have "critters", North American and African loops, lots of Rhinehart targets. Pass along the info to all.
Can you keep me informed Lefty and I will pass to our club. Thanks.
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Old 04-25-2015, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpelker View Post
Hi Lefty
The Grande Prairie club, Game Country Archers, are looking to do an ABA sanctioned shoot and we have used this type of shoot for our August "Hunter" shoot. We usually have 3 loops of 25 targets which makes for a real varied and fun shoot. We have "critters", North American and African loops, lots of Rhinehart targets. Pass along the info to all.
Can you keep me informed Lefty and I will pass to our club. Thanks.
PM me your email and I will pass it along!

LC
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2015, 01:49 PM
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I hope to be able to do this soon. As well as maybe my wife and son. The hunter class seems to be about perfect. Equipment has been a limiting factor in doing this sport, mostly time though. And if you don't have the time it's hard to justify the expense of putting together the equipment that you may want to have to "hang". With this class structure, it'll make it easier if I have time, to just jump in. With my son playing high end soccer, we have 7 sessions in 6 days. Most weekends are gone in the spring to mid summer, and then again from the fall to late winter/early spring.

Thank you to the people involved in getting the wheels going for the "introduction" of this class. Now I just ope I can get involved.
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  #37  
Old 04-27-2015, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Scottmisfits View Post
I hope to be able to do this soon. As well as maybe my wife and son. The hunter class seems to be about perfect. Equipment has been a limiting factor in doing this sport, mostly time though. And if you don't have the time it's hard to justify the expense of putting together the equipment that you may want to have to "hang". With this class structure, it'll make it easier if I have time, to just jump in. With my son playing high end soccer, we have 7 sessions in 6 days. Most weekends are gone in the spring to mid summer, and then again from the fall to late winter/early spring.

Thank you to the people involved in getting the wheels going for the "introduction" of this class. Now I just ope I can get involved.
We can all get involved and/or enjoy...its not so much an "introduction" ...more like re-inventing the wheel!!!


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  #38  
Old 04-27-2015, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinkhammer View Post
Grande Prairies is August 8th and 9th. They have been doing this for years and years. It will be nice to see some other clubs pick up this format. It is definatly a perfect fit for ABA sanctioned shoots.
Yup, fun shoot GP has been doing for many years. They do allow range finders at this shoot.
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  #39  
Old 04-28-2015, 07:49 AM
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Yup, fun shoot GP has been doing for many years. They do allow range finders at this shoot.
The Rangfinder use at the Bowhunter round was discussed in great detail by the committee...
I did a little survey here on the forum, expecting fewer bowhunters to have rangefinders, as when I was younger and starting out with a new family $500.00 wasnt in the budget for beyond bow accessories and was correct to some point as that was the main reason some didnt have rangefinders...

However I was also surpprised to see as with myself 95% of compound bowhunters do carry rangefinders...

The second main reason was that nearly all of the traditional shooters dont carry rangefinders...

It was agreed that since the shoot target ranges are within 40 yard max, and originally 3D shoots were designed for hands on practice in bowhunting scenios where as on foot many scenios dont allow for time for a rangefinder...[back there we didnt worry about that as electronic rangefinders were not invented or perfected then...]

So it was agreed in whole that we would try the no rangefinder rule to enhance and sharpen bowhunters range skills, which was the main purpose ...second to having fun ...of the 3D original Bowhunter rounds...

We as a committee had to implement some rules to make it fun and fair for everyone...however we understand times have changed as well as bowhunting so as we invite more ABA members to join we can all have a say and vote on any rule..they are not written in stone!!!

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  #40  
Old 04-30-2015, 01:12 PM
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Hopefully soon (today ) clubs should see an email from an ABA 3d Committee Member. If not, please reply to this thread and We can get the email package/proposal to host the ABA Bowhunter Challenge Championship to you.

There is a short time line to get proposals to hold the final shoot back, so please don't delay and discuss with your respective club executive ASAP!

We also encourage clubs to add the class to their regular shoots, so folks have a chance to try it out before the final. Clubs needing info please let us know!

LC.
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  #41  
Old 05-07-2015, 05:46 PM
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We have received back two proposals so far, glad the clubs are eager to host the ABA Bowhunter Challenge. Also sent a couple of emails out to clubs looking to add the class to their regular shoots.

Hope to see a lot of new faces out there this year. Picking up the hunting gear and putting on smiles!

LC
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  #42  
Old 05-07-2015, 08:45 PM
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This is awesome news! Great to see and thanks for your effort (and anyone else involved)
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  #43  
Old 05-13-2015, 09:11 PM
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Just a quick bump with a reminder to all clubs who received requests for proposals to send those in ASAP. Also to any clubs looking to potentially add the class to your local shoots....let us know.

LC
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  #44  
Old 05-13-2015, 09:29 PM
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Will they split the fixed pins vs. the sliders?
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  #45  
Old 05-14-2015, 05:46 AM
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Will they split the fixed pins vs. the sliders?
Not for the bowhunter challenge class. Provided the sight is a "hunting" sight. The way that this is determined is the sight cannot have "audible clicks" while adjusting. So if you have a fixed pin hybrid sight (CBE Tek Hunter) you can move the sight around or as many times as you like or if you have a HHA Kingpin or a Spot Hogg Hogg Father, you can use it and move it around for every shot. The sight cannot have a lens installed however. As you know there are quite a few folks using single pin sights to hunt with now so it was decided this class would be inclusive and have all types of "hunting" sights allowed.

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  #46  
Old 05-14-2015, 09:46 PM
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This class is the one thing that may actually get me out for my first 3d shoot. I have no interest in changing my gear or getting a second set up, so I'm encouraged to see this approach.
Thanks for putting the work into this
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  #47  
Old 05-14-2015, 10:11 PM
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This class is the one thing that may actually get me out for my first 3d shoot. I have no interest in changing my gear or getting a second set up, so I'm encouraged to see this approach.
Thanks for putting the work into this
Really happy to hear people like the concept, a lot of folks at the ABA on the 3d Committee and other folks were consulted and put a lot of thought into this to make it fun and challenging at the same time.

Here is a snippet from the rules:

3) Equipment:​
a. All Classes:
i. The stabilizer system can be any shape or configuration as long as it is contained within a theoretical sphere having a radius of 12 inches measured from the point of attachment on front of bow (For the purposes of this rule, any device adding length or weight to the stabilizer shall be considered part of the stabilizer and shall be subject to the 12-inch rule. Un-weighted vibration dampeners are not considered to be stabilizers; however, un-weighted vibration dampeners attached to the stabilizer are measured as a part of the stabilizer and are subject to the 12-inch rule above.
ii. Sights: less than 12” and can be fixed pins or movable as long as pin is moveable without audible clicking. ( not conducive to hunting) No lenses (magnifying or not) in front sight. Any number of pins can be used, any size, shape or configuration.
iii. Peeps are allowed clarifiers or verifiers, as used in hunting.
iiii. Rangefinders not allowed however binoculars can be utilized at stake prior to shot only
b. MBH/FBH/M16/F16: All the above plus
i. Draw weight over 40 lbs (hunting legal)
ii. Minimum arrow weight is 300 grains
iii. Arrows must not have glue in points. They need to have an insert or out-sert that can hold a commercially available broad head.
c. Traditional:
i. Traditional equipment will be either a longbow, recurve or self-bow of any make or design and will not include sights or stabilizers.
ii. All bows in MTBH/ FTBH- 16 and above will be required to have a legal bow (40 lbs. at 28”)
iii. All traditional bows will be drawn by fingers in contact with the bowstring and released by opening the hand. Exceptions are horn rings and if the person is disabled, a mouth release may be used.
iiii. Bow silencers attached to the string may be used.
v. The arrows may be of any type and may be nocked with lighted nocks.

d. All equipment outside of these classes are not eligible for bow hunter challenge. Any participant who is unsure if equipment meets requirements must approach ABA committee prior to shooting first arrow and any decisions of this ABA committee is final for that shoot but will be discussed after shoot for future shoots.

4) Shooting:
a. Time at each stake is 1 minute. Once arrow is released archer must immediately leave the stake to allow next archer time to get to stake. (No using binoculars from stake after shot.)
b. Archer’s body part must contact stake or follow instructions at station i.e tree stands, chairs etc.
c. Unsportsmanlike conduct will not be tolerated. Any action considered unsportsmanlike by the host club or the ABA will be grounds for disqualification and/or suspension from membership. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, the following:
i. Projecting any illuminated aiming point onto a target.
ii. Littering or improper disposal of trash.
iii. Communicating to another archer the yardage of a particular target that the other archer has not yet shot.
iiii. All forms of electronic communication are prohibited while on the shooting range unless communication is required for an emergency. Cell phone and other devices must be silenced before entering the range.
v. Disobeying or disregarding the orders of a range official or shoot official.
vi. Any otherwise-listed rule violation.
d. Equipment failure: In event of minor equipment failure archer has 15 minutes to fix while on course if archer has to leave course to fix it is considered catastrophic failure and it is up to host club and ABA to determine if archer can complete or make up round or not within time constraints. All reasonable attempts will be made for archer to complete the course.

5) Target Placement
a. All targets will be placed where a shot would be representative of a real life vital shot.
i. In most cases this means broadside
ii. Some targets are designed to be placed at a different configuration and if used the scoring zone must still be representative of a true life vital shot.
b. Shooting lanes must be made so all categories have a realistic chance of placing an arrow in the vitals. (This does not mean a clear mowed path to each target for a shooting lane but reasonable approximation of real life shooting situations where they may be branches or other obstacles to shoot over or under but within reason)
c. Retrieval path for arrows must be safely and reasonably accessible.
d. Organizers: Please remember we are wanting to make course varied and attractive for archers of all skill levels. Make distances reasonable based on size of target. An archer of average skill should have a reasonable probability of placing arrow in vital zone.

6) Stake Distances:
a. MBH/FBH/M16/F16 will be max 40 yards. Stake color defined by host club
b. M14/F14/MTBH/FTBH/MT16/FT16: 30 yards max. Stake color to be determined by club​: Please note that distances are to be varied reasonable based on size of target (i.e. no long bombs at 30 yards at a tiny target)
c. MT14/FT14: (max 20 yards) Stake color defined by host club.
d. PW and PWT : will be their comfortable distance i.e let youngster walk up to 10 yards and shoot or 8 yards and shoot or 15 yards and shoot whatever they and their parent are comfortable at to keep cost of arrow replacement down!
e. Traditional: TBD

7) Scoring:
a. 1 for a mortal hit (8 line in)
b. 0 for a miss, or glance off, or “ethical pass”
c. -1 for a wound (outside “8” line)
d. +1 bonus for an X
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  #48  
Old 05-15-2015, 12:02 AM
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Might want to revisit the 40# min draw weight....some kids stay home eh? Maybe make it a requirement for adult classes?
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  #49  
Old 05-15-2015, 01:17 AM
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I kind of agree with him^.
Edit: This IS supposed to be a hunting style shoot. So maybe that's a good idea to keep it at 40#??
Unsportsmanlike conduct will not be tolerated. Then this is written.
iii. Communicating to another archer the yardage of a particular target that the other archer has not yet shot.

Seems pretty darn sportsman like to me!
Kidding aside, good set of guidelines.
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  #50  
Old 05-15-2015, 05:55 AM
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Oops double post.

LC
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  #51  
Old 05-15-2015, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 338Bluff View Post
Might want to revisit the 40# min draw weight....some kids stay home eh? Maybe make it a requirement for adult classes?
That's for the 16 years old and up (almost adults )....under 16 doesn't have a 40lb minimum. If we had a situation where someone was 16 and unable to pull back 40lbs....it would be a game day decision amongst organizers.

The consensus for the class was to make it as close to a "hunting situation" shoot as possible....if a 16 year old cannot draw back 40 pounds then they are unable to hunt under the written regs. For actual hunting I know a resolution was put forth to decrease that requirement to 35lbs, the new regs aren't out yet.

b. MBH/FBH/M16/F16: All the above plus
i. Draw weight over 40 lbs (hunting legal)

LC
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Old 05-15-2015, 06:33 AM
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It is a shame that they decided to count x's. I have never herd an elk or deer say "that was an x"! This scoring will cater to the seasoned 3d archers and make sure they still win, IMO.
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  #53  
Old 05-15-2015, 06:43 AM
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It is a shame that they decided to count x's. I have never herd an elk or deer say "that was an x"! This scoring will cater to the seasoned 3d archers and make sure they still win, IMO.
It was felt the X would count as a differential in score so there would be less folks with a tie. If the X,10,8 all score the same there could be a giant tie with many shooters. As it is there will likely be a tie for one or more of the podium spots. An X is only a +1 to an 8/10 which both scores a 1. Scores are going to be very low....on 20 targets, 40 is the highest possible score.

For the final there is a "shootout-shootup" style playoff, hopefully folks have fun with.

1-3 and possibly 4,5 will be recognized with a medal, certificate or plaque. Prizes in the class will be distributed via random draw....so all shooters have an equal chance at winning a prize regardless of the placing you finish in.

Those who want to shoot for fun don't even have to keep score! Just turn in a card with your name on it for the draws.

With some thing like this it is difficult to cater to everyone. The 3d committee felt this format was the best way to get people participating again with a little bit of flavor for everyone.

One of the main complaints we had was "3d has become too competitive" all the fun is gone, we try to bring the fun back....but it seems that maybe folks are still stuck on the competitive nature and not the fun....we need to worry less about the score and put the emphasis on making a shot that would be considered an ethical killing shot.

Some of the kill zones on the targets are not representative of a "true" mortal wounding shot....Eg. some are square on the shoulder. We have to work with what we have . Honestly I don't know where the vitals are on a real life Duck Billed Dinosaur or a mosquito

LC
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  #54  
Old 05-15-2015, 07:12 AM
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I would like to add we truly welcome the comments, questions, and criticism. The be all and end all of this whole endeavor is to grow the sport of 3d and the sport of bow hunting through PARTICIPATION.

That is really what we need to make this successful is bodies showing up to give this a go...if it is your first shoot or first time doing 3d, come check out a shoot walk around talk to folks I don't know anyone personally who would not help you with questions.

I hope to see many new/old faces giving this a go this year, also we want to thank the clubs that are helping this go by adding the class to their local shoots, and the clubs who have submitted (are submitting) proposals to hold the final for the Bowhunter 3d Challenge.

LC
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  #55  
Old 05-15-2015, 07:31 AM
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It is a shame that they decided to count x's. I have never herd an elk or deer say "that was an x"! This scoring will cater to the seasoned 3d archers and make sure they still win, IMO.
I also see your point ...However whether a seasoned 3D shooter or a veteran bowhunter, or a new shooter more importantly...the object always for all is to "Pick a spot" the "spot" in this case that spot is the X.

One of the biggest mistakes bowhunter experiance is a total miss or a wound due to aiming at entire animal instead of "picking a spot or X"

So other than Leftys bang on point of eliminating a 100 way tie, it is just good practise to teach all bowhunters to "pick a spot" on the animal...in this case as mentioned it just happens to be that X spot...

Over the years I have developed the ability...That once my animal is identified as an animal I want...I focus on that X or spot and nothing else...before I draw and thru entire shot...I dont see nothing else on/of that animal regardless of antler or fang size...this is the same principal.

Oh and Stinkhammer if you hear deer and elk talking to you...its time to get out of the woods for a while son....lol

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Old 05-15-2015, 07:57 AM
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First off I want to say this style of 3d is exactly what I envisioned when I went to my first 3d (and last) shoot. My son and I where seriously 'out-gunned' by the big boys with there target sights, 30" stabilizers, scopes and fancy bows. I appreciate the time and effort by the organizers and the ABA to bring these type of shoots. This will bring us back to the roots of 3d and what it was meant to be.

I do have some issues with the 'No rangefinder allowed' rule though. If this is suppose to simulate actual hunting conditions, rangefinders should be allowed. How many bowhunters are out in the field without a rangefinder? Not very many I bet. Lets face it we owe it to the animals we chase to know the yardage we're shooting. This is the most intimidating aspect to starting out hunters and 3d shooters. A few yards off either way, depending upon speed of the bow, means the difference between a killing shot and a wounded animal. This, I feel will really inhibit the younger generation that shooting slower bows and who have little to no yardage guessing experience. Just using a rangefinder, doesn't mean it a slam dunk X. I real life situations there's much more to it. Branches, wind, etc.

If you look at what the ASA has done in the states with the Known classes, its exploding. Mostly for the reasons I've stated. A lot of people don't have the time to practice judging yardage. They pre-range all targets, but you are allowed to bring you own rangefinder to verify that yardage. That would make it more accessible for all ages.

Just some thoughts. It may be too late to change this year or may never fly, but this is what I've experienced.
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:43 AM
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First off I want to say this style of 3d is exactly what I envisioned when I went to my first 3d (and last) shoot. My son and I where seriously 'out-gunned' by the big boys with there target sights, 30" stabilizers, scopes and fancy bows. I appreciate the time and effort by the organizers and the ABA to bring these type of shoots. This will bring us back to the roots of 3d and what it was meant to be.

I do have some issues with the 'No rangefinder allowed' rule though. If this is suppose to simulate actual hunting conditions, rangefinders should be allowed. How many bowhunters are out in the field without a rangefinder? Not very many I bet. Lets face it we owe it to the animals we chase to know the yardage we're shooting. This is the most intimidating aspect to starting out hunters and 3d shooters. A few yards off either way, depending upon speed of the bow, means the difference between a killing shot and a wounded animal. This, I feel will really inhibit the younger generation that shooting slower bows and who have little to no yardage guessing experience. Just using a rangefinder, doesn't mean it a slam dunk X. I real life situations there's much more to it. Branches, wind, etc.

If you look at what the ASA has done in the states with the Known classes, its exploding. Mostly for the reasons I've stated. A lot of people don't have the time to practice judging yardage. They pre-range all targets, but you are allowed to bring you own rangefinder to verify that yardage. That would make it more accessible for all ages.

Just some thoughts. It may be too late to change this year or may never fly, but this is what I've experienced.

While most bowhunters do carry rangefinders...IMHO it is still in the interest, ethics and responsiblilty for bowhunters to take the time with their yardage judging...

If one ever plans to hunt elk during the rut...on foot -calling...where an blood shot eyed, elk with steam blowing out its nose covers a 1/4 mile in seconds and is in your face...most time pulling a rangefinder will only result in seeing its butt in the rangefinder as its leaving...

If a bowhunter hunts on foot at all they had better practice yardage because if they try to take time to rangefind they will miss out on a lot of oppurtunites...

A range finder class was created 3 years ago in Alberta in response to the same information and they had a grand total of 7 participants in 2 years at 6 shoots.... averaging 1 and 1/7 per shoot, so its not a real game changer for most...

It was agreed that since the bowhunter 3D shoot target ranges are within 40 yard max, and originally 3D shoots were designed for hands on practice in bowhunting scenio's whereas on foot many scenio's don't allow for time for a rangefinder...[back when bowhunting 3D was created we didnt worry about that as electronic rangefinders were not invented or perfected then...]

So it was agreed in whole that we would try the no rangefinder rule to enhance and sharpen bowhunters range skills, which was the main purpose ...second to having fun ...of the 3D original Bowhunter rounds...

What you have said with the first sentance is what these shoots are all about and the reason it was created.

Neil
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Old 05-15-2015, 08:56 AM
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*edit* LOST and I were typing at same time....glad we came up with basically the same answer

There is always a struggle between the known and the unknown yardages. The ABA introduced a "range finder" class and it ran for a couple years....the participation was less than thrilling, in fact it was dismal to be honest. Some shoots had two participants.

So the inference was drawn back to that experience and the decision made that rangefinders would not be included.

Look at it this way, if you shoot fixed pin (I do) you can basically eliminate an entire pin or two...most people have 20,30,40,50,60. This class maxes out at 40 yards....so you have a 20,30,40 yard pin. That helps immensely in having to judge a yardage knowing the furthest possible shot is 40 yards. On the flip side, I would hazard a guess to say when someone sees a target at 20 yards they know it's a top pin shot....I shot "Hunter" class last year when offered and at provincials and nationals, my sight had 4 pins and I only ever used 3 pins throughout the entire season during competition.

The main idea of 3d is (or was) to practice for hunting. What better way to learn and make mistakes but on a fun shoot with foam critters. While I respect those who really want to have rangefinders included. The 3d committee consulted and the general consensus was to not have rangefinders...that decision was not unanimous

Not everyone has a rangefinder...BUT everyone has the potential to become better at judging range.

LC
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Old 05-15-2015, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
*edit* LOST and I were typing at same time....glad we came up with basically the same answer

There is always a struggle between the known and the unknown yardages. The ABA introduced a "range finder" class and it ran for a couple years....the participation was less than thrilling, in fact it was dismal to be honest. Some shoots had two participants.

So the inference was drawn back to that experience and the decision made that rangefinders would not be included.

Look at it this way, if you shoot fixed pin (I do) you can basically eliminate an entire pin or two...most people have 20,30,40,50,60. This class maxes out at 40 yards....so you have a 20,30,40 yard pin. That helps immensely in having to judge a yardage knowing the furthest possible shot is 40 yards. On the flip side, I would hazard a guess to say when someone sees a target at 20 yards they know it's a top pin shot....I shot "Hunter" class last year when offered and at provincials and nationals, my sight had 4 pins and I only ever used 3 pins throughout the entire season during competition.

The main idea of 3d is (or was) to practice for hunting. What better way to learn and make mistakes but on a fun shoot with foam critters. While I respect those who really want to have rangefinders included. The 3d committee consulted and the general consensus was to not have rangefinders...that decision was not unanimous

Not everyone has a rangefinder...BUT everyone has the potential to become better at judging range.

LC
Perfect...that quote should be etched in stone somewhere...well said!!

Neil
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Old 05-15-2015, 09:57 AM
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I think the distance should be increased to 50 yards... and people can use range finders if you don't score your points? or after all shots are taken in group?
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